Mini 1080 -- txtMafia -- Game OVER

[The Fonz]

vote: Mothrax

Referencing ongoing game + use of txtspk to convey point short enough to fit = not likely to be useful protown player. Agree/dis?

[The Fonz]

Korts:All should aim to speak clearly as poss. Msg not long enough to need contraction- needlessly annoying/hard to read. That + OGG ref suggest noob. Absent sc

Truncated.

[The Fonz]

@ all: Hero 11, genuine enquiry re poss of scum daytalk or trying too hard? Some players show signs of s/hunting. Tasky 4 posts without any. Here but not trying

Truncated, including vote.

[The Fonz]

Tasky- If all you do is spam, there will be only spam. Others have tried movin things 4ward, you ain't. Making excuses for not s/hunting = scumtell.

[The Fonz]

Happy with the

Vote: Tasky

I tried to make earlier.

[The Fonz]

That's a pro-scum attitude.

[The Fonz]

Not so. "I'm going to sit back and wait for SOMEONE ELSE to do something that gets them attacked” = common scumplay. I'm not shy of PLing, this isn't one.

[The Fonz]

Ironically given complaints about spam, what I find scummy bout Tasky = him making irrelevant posts- timezones etc. Sounds like content, but doesn't help town.

[The Fonz]

NO, I absolutely will not. You're basically asking for a free pass until you think you've got something solid. We need to get reads on you, too.

[The Fonz]

Anti,How is attacking someone for not scumhunting (ie, scumhunting) hypocritical?

[The Fonz]

I don't have enough characters to go into depth, but look at say the way Korts presses ppl on anything that looks like it might be a lead vs Tasky's passivity.

[The Fonz]

That's blatantly untrue.

[The Fonz]

A handful, and couple of scum hiding behind it. Again, not a PL: players making effort to help town less likely to be scum. He's not one, so likely scum.

[The Fonz]

Sweet, an opinion. Why?

[The Fonz]

Unvote, Vote: CryWolf

Active lurking worse than Tasky. Also parked vote on Equi for crap reason.

[The Fonz]

Crywolf: Yes. For one you were active lurking before you declared you would be, secondly saying you're going to do it doesn't excuse it.

[The Fonz]

If you have time to post at all, you have time to post content.

[The Fonz]

Come off it, none of what you mentioned is scummy. Korts is one of the few really making protown effort here. Vote stinks.

[The Fonz]

Obviously, I couldn't disagree more. Active lurking is the single most consistently reliable indicator of scum.

[The Fonz]

Disagree totally on both points. AV not active lurking. Even if so, other people doing it doesn't make it OK.

[The Fonz]

As for Korts/Kunk, I thought Kunk's vote was terrible, I said so. What's wrong with pointing out things you think scummy?

[The Fonz]

I said it stinks. How else could that possibly be interpreted?

[The Fonz]

Also, did you miss the bit where I said AV WASN'T ACTIVE LURKING AT ALL?

[The Fonz]

When I say it I mean trying to appear active but not doing anything to move the game forward/scumhunt. What's your meaning?

[The Fonz]

Not everyone who does any given scummy thing is scum, that doesn't mean it's not scummy. When I say stinks, I'm just saying 'is scummy' in different words.

[The Fonz]

I don't think they're inane, and I don't see any reason to think he's not giving 'real' opinions either.

[The Fonz]

Also, you accused me (falsely) of not scumhunting, then you call my attacks on other players 'forced' and make out that's scummy too. Have cake/eat cake?

[The Fonz]

368: Not giving reasons is never scummy, in my experience it's something scum go after a lot tho.

[The Fonz]

Also, I can't see anything wrong with going from Tasky to fishy as other people are joining on fishy at all. Could you elaborate?

[The Fonz]

Yeah, nice one, dismiss valid criticism of you as OMGUS.

[The Fonz]

Why? She's active lurking, that benefits scum more than town, hence scummy. Which of these two points do you dispute?

[The Fonz]

Also, Tasky's activity dropping after heat comes off him is noteworthy.

[The Fonz]

Incidentally anti, I have no intention of voting you today. You are wrong on basically everything, but you are active and outspoken, and those are towntells.

[The Fonz]

You're again baselessly asserting. There is no worse active lurker than Crywolf.

[The Fonz]

No. Voting, pressing people and saying who you think is scummy is like the definition of content.

[The Fonz]

Also, attacking people for lack of reasons given the limitations of the game seems to me either retarded or scummy.

[The Fonz]

Making posts giving excuses/criticising people for criticising you for not talking about who is scummy, when you coulda talked about who is scummy, is scummy.

[The Fonz]

Herodotus, have you had any success in prior games with looking for 'distancing' on day one before any flips?

[The Fonz]

LOL, that's what you call getting your retaliation in first.

Tag fixed. ~~NS

[The Fonz]

HERE: I think you may have misunderstood what I meant by 'parked.' Just used it as a synonym for 'placed' or 'stuck' not 'left.'

[The Fonz]

In other words, what I find suspicious is the crap reason given rather than anything else.

[The Fonz]

unvote, vote Tasky

Happy now Crywolf's contributing, let's go to suspect no2.

[The Fonz]

Reasons: Mostly appears to be playing to survive, but also his voteswitch indicates his certainty on AV was faked.

[The Fonz]

Equi 462: Do you mean those are your three favorites, or r u simply ranking existing wagons?

[The Fonz]

465 gives me the creeps. Anti's been making out that pushing Cry was scummy, but apparently he wants her dead. WTF?

[The Fonz]

Mmm. See, my thing is, scum have a habit of 'milking' V/LA whilst town try to do as much as poss. to be helpful despite it.

[The Fonz]

Cry was posting, indicating she had time to check thread, but not doing anything useful.

[The Fonz]

Townlogic = i must get this out of the way so i can start contributing. No point posting at all till then.

[The Fonz]

Scumlogic: I'll post anyway so it looks like i'm playing, but i'll do nothing that could help town.

[The Fonz]

Do you actually think her behavior makes her more likely scum or not?

[The Fonz]

I'm tryin to work out if you're pushing 'antitown but not scummy' or you think she's scummy, but others more so.

[The Fonz]

Needs.... MOAR... Tasky votes!

[The Fonz]

I don't see the problem with what mothrax did. "I feel uneasy about this guy, I need to reread to see if my suspicion has foundation."

[The Fonz]

I feel that Tasky has lied about his meta, he's admitted to deliberately faking the strength of his read, and his posting rate dropped when the wagon abated. What's not to hate?

[The Fonz]

11/7- 6 posts
11/8- 7
11/9 4
11/10 - 0
11/11- 1

Dropoff coincides perfectly with wagon dying.

[The Fonz]

I've never heard town say something as strong as 'You're scum, period' if they're bluffing.

[The Fonz]

510: Why not? Implies priority is staying alive- when not under pressure, not as keen to post.

[The Fonz]

Equi: WHY THE HELL would you want to share ANY role info with the scum when you don't have to?

[The Fonz]

What rage mode?

[The Fonz]

It's a reasonable question to ask, Anti. Narrowing the pool of potential vigs down helps scum immensely.

[The Fonz]

Incidentally, Antihero is guilty of the exact same thing, except in a lesser way. Directing the vig is antitown because it also suggests you are not the vig.

[The Fonz]

Town shouldn't lie though. I 100% support LAL.

[The Fonz]

Also, re: 525, just because YOU play town like scum, doesn't make it not scummy.

[The Fonz]

One saying, one implying. And yes, town leaking role info like this is one of the most damaging things that can happen in mafia.

[The Fonz]

This is REALLY scummy. Town always assume other players are either telling the truth or scum.

Fixed tag. ~~NS

[The Fonz]

Equi: You wondered why Cayke reacted in EXACTLY the way town would normally react to that?

[The Fonz]

Erm, the (busted) link was to Equi's post. I would have thought it obvious.

[The Fonz]

Well, people attack a lot of 'antitown if that guy's town' stuff. Because scum don't have the same incentive to protect role info town do.

[The Fonz]

Equi: Explain what you wanted to do. NOW.

[The Fonz]

Am breathing. Hehe. I have to leave in like 5-10mins though.

[The Fonz]

Fair enough. Preview ed: Why oh why say that?

[The Fonz]

574: WTF?

[The Fonz]

First half to Equi saying he couldn't explain. Second to him saying it was a crumb.

[The Fonz]

579: There's a clear implication that his motive was role-related. At which point, decent town players should STFU.

[The Fonz]

Hey Anti. Sure, let's talk about my Tasky vote. Let's talk about he's given absolutely no reason to think he wants the town to win this game.

[The Fonz]

Let's also talk about how your attacking AV for asking relevant questions and scumhunting fails.

[The Fonz]

Or, let's talk about how Tasky again shows himself full of crap, when he actually bothers to post game-relevant stuff at all.

[The Fonz]

Sure. He claims being passive is his usual playstyle- but the games he linked don't support that idea at all imho.

[The Fonz]

Also the link someone else found (I forget who) which he conveniently dismisses as too long ago.

[The Fonz]

I actually find his Hero point to be useful, and the sort of thing protown scumhunters would be looking for.

[The Fonz]

Going to readthru with an emphasis on Hero to see what time he jumps wagons etc.

[The Fonz]

Hero:


First vote: Random, so irrelevant

After p1 random vote, doesn't post for ten pages

[The Fonz]

2nd: Korts for apparent inconsistency. Korts has no other votes.

[The Fonz]

3rd: For me, no reason, Ray quote indicates he likes wagoning in principle. Later says he thinks it looks like distancing.

[The Fonz]

4th: Votes mothrax at the height of the wagon, L-2, having not mentioned him before except in long lurkerlist. THIS is genuinely scummy. Claims not to have noti

Truncated ~~NS

[The Fonz]

Then to crywolf: Issue of attacking wagon then joining, as with AH, but since reason for fonzvote was distancing, makes a bit more sense.

[The Fonz]

5th: Tasky- this does look like a 'join the popular wagon' vote, though it is on the scummiest player, so...

[The Fonz]

True and I stand by it. Not a misrep at all.

[The Fonz]

Calling this scummy is laughable, dishonesty is always scummy, not mudslinging but obvious scumhunting.

[The Fonz]

To elaborate on the first point in last post: Anti is like this bizarro mafia player. Everything he calls scummy is protown, everything he calls townish is scum

Truncated. ~~NS

[The Fonz]

Did you miss the second half of that post where I say 'later explains it was distancing?'

[The Fonz]

Your questions in order: 1) She was active lurking before she announced the deadline, and pressuring lurkers to come back ASAP never hurts.

[The Fonz]

2) I just answered this. You seem to be 'missing' an awful lot.

[The Fonz]

I don't understand the second half of 658 at all.

[The Fonz]

Hero is doing something that scum do a lot here: nitpicking about precise timings of votes/number of votes on a wagon, whilst ignoring the real point of what is said.

[The Fonz]

Fine, except the A/lurking that she had already done already made me think she was the most likely scum at that point.

[The Fonz]

Firstly, it is CORRECT to say that you gave no reason in your voting post, and it's irrelevant anyway, since not giving reasons isn't scummy.

[The Fonz]

I then went looking for reasons (as I recalled you had said it was distancing) and found them. I found them later, so i thought you'd made them later. As for l-

Truncated. ~~NS

[The Fonz]

My sole mistake there was forgetting a mini needs 7 t/l, not six.

[The Fonz]

Not just the 1 he dismissed, the ones he linked show him to be willing to apply pressure on small things early on. In Mini love, his 3rd vote is a serious vote.

Truncated. ~~NS

[The Fonz]

Money quote here. Also makes effort to get game moving here.

[The Fonz]

Tbh, I got distracted from posting my conclusions from the readthru by Tasky's latest BS. Just a sec.

[The Fonz]

Mothrax vote is troublesome because it looked like attempt to slip onto popular wagon late. None of the others really fit that profile. HOWEVER:

[The Fonz]

I would like to know what changed in the roughly half a page (iirc) between your mothrax and cayke votes.

[The Fonz]

It does, however, indicate that he states he's sure someone is scum an awful lot of the time, so that's probably not a scumtell.

[The Fonz]

Though that does seems at odds with this:

I really can't get reads the first day... non-existing reads. D1 ends in a random lynch anyway

[The Fonz]

I'd better mention, I'm suspicious of how so many people assumed Tasky was just bad town as soon as he was attacked.

[The Fonz]

It's the worst thing about MS atm- people seem to assume 'He has a bad playstyle, he can't possibly be scum.'

[The Fonz]

Either that, or they're his buddies protecting him.

[The Fonz]

Vi, before you read, could you tell me what you would expect any of the players you've played with b4 to do in an 'average' game D1?

[The Fonz]

You see, I draw the opposite conclusion- the way people run to defend him from the first serious wagon of the game gives me chills.

Fixed tag. ~~NS

[The Fonz]

@Vi, silly or not, I find it useful.

[The Fonz]

Tasky: How is that selective quoting? I'm in despair trying to see anything but OMGUS and scum-ness coming from you.

[The Fonz]

Delayed OMGUS at that, which is a bigger scumtell. You cooked up a BS reason related to Cayke so it didn't look like the omgus it clearly was.

[The Fonz]

And if by 'selective quoting' you mean finding the one piece of smoking gun evidence that proves you're a liar, sure.

[The Fonz]

Fishy, that's not true. Everyone rushes to say 'He's just a bad townie' -> assuming he is town.

[The Fonz]

Ignoring distinct possibilities that a) he's doing it deliberately or b) he's always antitown, but is nonetheless scum here.

[The Fonz]

@Fishy: Equi 226, Cayke 233, Korts 261, Kunk 278 (though he hedges a bit) mothrax 294, Equi 486.

[The Fonz]

Kast, can you explain how

I'm

the unfair one? Feel like he's not being fair/reasonable w/me.

Fixed tag. ~~NS

[The Fonz]

I think our basic disagreement is: I see the initial tasky wagon as one of mostly town players, trying to get the game moving...

[The Fonz]

and think that his defenders are more likely either buddies or white knighting scum. Others see it as a wagon with scum going for mislynch.

[The Fonz]

I think that's retarded, because it was the first serious wagon of the game.

[The Fonz]

@Kunk: Could you explain what caused your view of Tasky to switch from bad town to scum?

[The Fonz]

Also noting the rainbow votecount.

[The Fonz]

Vi: Who are your top suspects? As reigning paragon, you're a likely nk- like to see your full thoughts first.

[The Fonz]

Vi, what do you think of Herod? I ask because i get bad vibes, but can't place them.

[The Fonz]

BTW 'either' is a false dichotomy- you've got one big wagon, one two-man wagon, and then a rainbow. Any 1-man you join would tie for 2nd.

[The Fonz]

Vi is someone I know is good and could bring an interesting perspective. She was also, y'know, HERE.

[The Fonz]

Tasky: When you listed your top three as me/AV/mothrax, what was mothrax doing on that list?

[The Fonz]

BTW: Tasky voting me after I moved to cayke WORSE: delayed omgus implies cynical rather than instinctive.

[The Fonz]

HOW exactly is Tasky scumhunting?

[The Fonz]

I don't see Tasky asking a lot of questions. And I don't see any reason why he's voting me other than he doesn't like my attack on him.

[The Fonz]

Sure. If he'd voted me immediately, that's one thing. Instead he tries to disguise the omgus by inventing a spurious cayke reason.

[The Fonz]

But it's not a real vote.

[The Fonz]

Look at what AV and I have in common: voting Tasky.

[The Fonz]

Explain what is scummy about our play. Also note, Tasky came up with Cayke 'reason' much later.

[The Fonz]

Also explain how his earlier statements that d1 is a crapshoot ending in a random lynch square with his certainty on me.

[The Fonz]

1) Voting only the two people who have most attacked you is not scumhunting.

[The Fonz]

2) Anyone who feels 1st Tasky wagon attempt at mislynch doesn't understand mafia. Period.

[The Fonz]

3) I certainly didn't misrep anything about Tasky's playstyle: he clearly WAS asking for free pass until later in the day.

[The Fonz]

4) Meta evidence contradicts T's assertion that it is his playstyle.

[The Fonz]

5) If CW not only active lurker, who else? Also, doesn't need to be ONLY- voted because she was WORST

[The Fonz]

6) People only have one vote, y'know?

[The Fonz]

Ah, in fact, Tasky didn't give Cayke reason, my bad. Given reasons.

[The Fonz]

His reasons were: 1)thought my initial attack on him was a misrep, 2) thought me stating I didn't find Anti scummy was buddying, 3) didn't like me attacking him

Truncated. ~~NS

[The Fonz]

1 and 3 are "I don't like why Fonz is voting me," 2 is just bullshit.

[The Fonz]

3) was 'Didn't like me attacking him for faking his certainty.'

[The Fonz]

Incidentally, re-read tells me the scummiest of the early Tasky-defenders is Fishy.

[The Fonz]

To elaborate, AV's Taskyvote looks like a typical town 'let's jump the first halfway decent wagon to start discussion' vote, Fishy attacking this = opportunist.

[The Fonz]

Ray, who the hell is sky?

[The Fonz]

Ray's list is pretty good. I'd have Fishy scummier than chamber tho, and Kunk for me is neutral. Not worst lynch, can do better.

[The Fonz]

Most of those who were replaced were scummy by omission (not posting content) rather than commission (scummy posts).

[The Fonz]

That said, Korts was true to townself, liked CW's reaction to Equi, don't remember anything good from mothrax.

[The Fonz]

Kast, I don't equate bad reasons with not s/hunting. At all. Protown noob is wrong, but sincere, and makes a lot of effort.

[The Fonz]

Tasky just seems to drop in once a day or so to say I'm scum because he doesn't like my reason for voting him.

[The Fonz]

Also, your posts are hard as all hell to parse.

[The Fonz]

His reason was pretty good for that stage of the game.

[The Fonz]

It's at best lazy and useless, which is a better thing to vote for than a random vote.

[The Fonz]

Tasky, not giving the Cayke reason actually makes you look WORSE, not better.

[The Fonz]

After the above, anyone want to seriously try to deny his motives are pure OMGUS?

[The Fonz]

Also, when Equi put the > > thing in, those were his top 3. What is wrong about thinking you were doing the same?

[The Fonz]

And to respond to your post in MD, the reason it's omgus is I don't believe for a second that...

[The Fonz]

you have made a sincere, genuine effort to work out where I'm coming from here.

[The Fonz]

Would you find voting a player for active lurking scummy if it wasn't you? What about making misleading meta statements?

[The Fonz]

That's completely irrelevant.

[The Fonz]

And it's a complete coincidence you make it whilst this argument's going on?

[The Fonz]

Plus, I can't possibly say in MD why you're completely wrong without it pertaining to this game.

[The Fonz]

Yet in another game where you were town, you urged others to contribute/vote early...

[The Fonz]

even if they only had gut to go on. Why does that good advice not apply to yourself?

[The Fonz]

BTW, if you DO really want to understand the issue, post in MD with previous games where you did this.

[The Fonz]

But generally, it's like mafia 101 to know that people won't accept arguments beginning 'I know i'm town therefore...'

[The Fonz]

I don't think he's sincere, though he's gone some today to sway me.

[The Fonz]

Kast. When I look for scumhunters, I look for people who examine others' activity, checks their stances with meta,

[The Fonz]

attempt to empathise, ask relevant questions, and in general show townie curiosity.

[The Fonz]

To me, Tsk has shown no townie curiosity. Every point he has made with exception of one (my response to Anti)

[The Fonz]

has been about himself, attacks on him, or links between people who attack HIM.

[The Fonz]

Therefore, I conclude he isn't interested in finding scum, but mostly in taking out threats to himself. That is scum behaviour.

[The Fonz]

Except that I totally didn't misrep his position in any way, I called it as I saw it.

[The Fonz]

ON AV: I saw his initial acts as protown, trying to get the game going stuff. That he got attacked I saw as opportunistic...

[The Fonz]

on part of Tasky/Fishy/Anti, with anti the most likely sincere of those. AV metas, and changes mind as result- town sign.

[The Fonz]

And that's what happens when you try to doublepost when everyone's on.

[The Fonz]

Yeah, doing arbitrary grading of posts isn't really going to cut it. You can't in honesty look at the two and think Tasky has been scumhunting nearly as much, surely?

[The Fonz]

See here, for instance- evidence that AV is doing votecount analysis, not something Tasky's come close to.

[The Fonz]

You can't call AV's task vote 'BS' without acknowledging that it was his first 'real' vote. First real votes are always weak.

[The Fonz]

I'm actually starting to think that Tasky is town and Kast is scum white knighting for him, though.

[The Fonz]

AV has been scumhunting SUBSTANTIALLY more than Tasky, and if you can't see that you're blind.

[The Fonz]

Bullshit. There's all the difference in the world between a reason good enough for a first vote and a reason good enough to actually lynch on.

Fixed tag. ~~NS

[The Fonz]

Nope. That you appear to be opportunistically attacking a player who's come under a lot of heat, but upon inspection isn't scummy, is reason for suspicion.

[The Fonz]

So if I spent the rest of the game popping up every day or two to say that whatever Tasky's latest argument against me is, is wrong/ he's scum, would you consid

Truncated. ~~NS

[The Fonz]

I disagree. There's some slight validity there. Voting for V/LAs is not useful.

[The Fonz]

Again, you're saying misrep without evidence. "I don't want to contribute till we have more concrete reads" is absolutely a scummy thing to say.

[The Fonz]

^ What he said.

[The Fonz]

And whatever Kast says 'Too much spam to serious start scumhunting' IS excusing not scumhunting. No other way to read it.

[The Fonz]

It's a real reason, based on behavior, and is antitown.

[The Fonz]

Kast: do you actually find AV scummy?

[The Fonz]

No. Of all the options Tsk had with his vote, he chose one least helpful to town. There's always the poss. he did that because

he doesn't want

to help town.

[The Fonz]

At the very least, that he didn't do all in his power to figure out how best to help the town with that post.

[The Fonz]

Clinches him as what? Also, first Tasky wagon or second?

[The Fonz]

No, I've convinced myself

he's more likely than random

to be scum because he hasn't shown any protown initiative at all.

[The Fonz]

Antitown actions are always at least slightly scummy, that's the foundation of my entire theory of scumhunting.