Newbie 1027: Trick or Treat! [Game Over]

[andrew94]

i didnt drop my vote on maniamax, he hasnt replied to my points and may be replaced (thats what my fos was for)

look, frankly, your post 166 showed u were sufficently worried. you then put on this 'im not worried' face. that, coupled with your so called 'rolefishing' earlier, put you in number one suspect shoes for me.
and you unvoted 7 minutes after him is because u thought u would not get enough support to lynch park, u cant just leave your vote there, you gotta unvote, and to unvote u gotta have a reason- and you made up a reason.
i would actually have believed that you 'didnt see it' if you didnt put on a patronising tone.

so basically case hinges on whether you saw it or not
logic states that you should have saw it
u said u didnt see it
wtf am i supposed to do? trust a potential mafia's word?
there is also the point of your rolefishing
if someone claims townie, am i supposed to just go along and trust him?

[Thor665]

@ whom ever it may concern, can we prod io_sambio or at least get a message out to him to post?

The usual method is to make sure you bold all requests to the mod - he's actually already within her stated prod range but I'll go ahead and do this one for you as a freebie. Plus it will allow me to make a joke at the mod's expense by ampersanding for great justice

@@Mod: Request prod on IO_SAMBO_OI, he looks to be a pretty obvious flake@@

[Maniamax]

Aw snap, a hole load of stuff happened while I was asleep. God damn

--

alright, max any extra reason why you think park is scm
....

respond to some points made to you ( i think someone questioned you )

Well to be honest, my main reason was because he didn't really address Thor's questions towards him on Post 75 + 77. Honestly, while I know it's not much, and I'd be happy to change my vote if someone became more suspicious, he's the only one I've got a "feeling" of scuminess off of. (Also, what questions are you referring to?)

I would also like to call out maniamax right now. his post #125 just smells odd, and i haven't seen him questioning the fact that park may or

may

not be town, and he seems to be quietly slipping under the radar. not too many opinions, not too many posts. mania, if you are sure parknourie is scum, I would like a detailed reason of why you personally have come to this conclusion.

Well, I'm not sure that Park is scum, it's just that out of who have posted off of, he's the only one I got a scummy read off of. Again, I know it's not much to go on, but I've yet to get a "scummy" feeling off anyone else.
----

I'll be happy to unvote park once I see a better case against someone, or a better read, but until then II'm leaving my vote the way it is

[ooBAZZoo]

I'll be happy to unvote park once I see a better case against someone, or a better read, but until then II'm leaving my vote the way it is

Its fair enough to leave your vote on someone until you find another player scummier, but it doesn’t appear you’ve done anything to try and find someone scummier. You have to be active in scumhunting (try asking some pertinent questions, reading a player’s posts in isolation so you can analyse changes over time, putting pressure on players to see how they react to it, etc, etc). Sitting around and waiting for scum to slip up doesn’t work, and it also verges on active-lurking (posting enough to avoid being proded/replaced, but not posting any content of real value).

---

1. Is there was there any reason I should need to? Heck, one of them is answered in my user profile. What's next, curiosity about my gender?

No massive reason you should have for the benefit of my read, however I feel questions like that are a nice way to get people posting, ease newbies into their first posts, and help build an impression of people. I’ve asked similar questions at the beginning of other games, and seen them asked by others, and you are the first person who refused to answer an otherwise harmless question. I thought you might have an elaborate psychological reason for doing so, but without one it merely strikes me as slightly rude that you didn’t answer.

2. No. Do you think all non-game related questions need to be answered?

Yes. If not because I’m old fashioned and feel personally obliged to answer any question asked of me, but also because reads can be built of more than directly game related posts. Whilst I do not claim to be an expert, a lot can be shown by a psychological analysis of someone, and non game related posts can aid this as much (if not more) than game related ones.

3. There is a link in every post to that player's Wiki page. I fill mine out pretty well (though I am a few games behind). Huntman was able to find, reference, and even link to it this game. So if you're super curious about how awesome/terrible I am at the game you can go there.

The ‘yes’ I was asking you to elaborate on was regarding my ‘lynch all liars’ question, not the ‘have you played mafia before’ one.

Does any of this help you clarify your null read on me?

Whilst my questions didn’t provide me with an ultra scummy or town read, I didn’t expect them to. What they did do is clarify a lot of the question marks I had about you as a player. By clarifying how a player behaves this early in the game it may allow me to make more confident reads later, where I can assess the motives for you either sticking to, or deviating from, the impression of you that I have formed (sorry if this sentence doesn’t make sense, I will elaborate if need be).
Also, as well as clarifying certain question marks that I had about your play, I believe I’m right in saying that nobody had yet asked you any questions. Gauging a player’s reaction to questioning helps with reads too, and we now have at least one example with which we can compare any later reactions you make (to possibly significant questioning).

You may have seen my questions as pedantic, but I did ask them for a reason. Also, whilst I'm still very new to Mafia games, I'm trying to establish a playstyle that works for me, which I'm sure you can understand (even if it does vary from your aggressive style ).

[mothrax]

@Andrew: This is the second time that you have called a player out for being "calm". Explain please.

[KittyMo]

Vote Count VIII

[L-3] parknourie - (Maniamax, mothrax)

[L-4] Maniamax - (IO_SAMBO_OI)
[L-4] andrew94 - (Huntman800)
[L-4] mothrax - (parknourie)
[L-4] Guderian - (andrew94)

[3]

Not Voting

- (Guderian, ooBAZZoo, Thor665)

With

9

alive, it's

5

to lynch!

Deadline is at Wednesday, November 24, 2010 at 4:30:00 PM (Los Angeles time).

Prodding IO_SAMBO_OI per your requests.

[Huntman800]

Lots of post since I left, so let's get my post started:

First, my vote on Andrew is still there because of RVS, and while I feel there's no strong reasoning that I really need to withdraw it (he is neither in danger of a hammer nor anything else for that matter), I suppose I will just ------
@@

UNVOTE

I suppose the real bulk of what happened while I was gone has to do with Andrew's feelings towards Gude for unvoting after Thor. To be brief,

I find this argument incredibly pointless.

The possibility of it being a scum slip-up seems rather small to me, and not worth any suspicion. However, I guess if any further behavior from Gude does occur, then I'd be willing to acknowledge this as part of the case.
That's all I can really think to say now.

Preview Edit: Pressing preview, I see no other posts than the ones that were there when I pressed reply,

[Thor665]

tl:dr - a dancing of rudeness and viability of questions with BAZZ - it's all boring except probably to him.
Also, a question for BAZZ and for Hunt
------------------------------------------------------------

I’m old fashioned and feel personally obliged to answer any question asked of me

I'm older fashioned - where it can be considered rude to ask certain people certain questions and a man should not be in a room with a lady unescorted who isn't his wife. Manners are subjective, and let me assure you that there is no entry in any Big Book of Manners about being obligated to answer a question.

reads can be built of more than directly game related posts. Whilst I do not claim to be an expert, a lot can be shown by a psychological analysis of someone, and non game related posts can aid this as much (if not more) than game related ones.

Mmmm, I disagree. When you ask scum something they don't need to lie about it allows them to post stuff with 100% safety in how they answer it. The best I think you can hope for is to catch them lying about policy and game related questions (though I think even that is hard) and those are the questions I answered. Unless you seriously think you'd learn something by me telling you where my user name came from or where I live...

The ‘yes’ I was asking you to elaborate on was regarding my ‘lynch all liars’ question, not the ‘have you played mafia before’ one.

I thought I did expand on it insomuch as I already said I supported it in Newbies and not in regular games. There is no point where a newbie game should involve lying as a strategic advantage for town (or if there is I have yet to see it).

I'm trying to establish a playstyle that works for me, which I'm sure you can understand (even if it does vary from your aggressive style ).

That is awesome and I support it - I'm just pointing out why I feel you're wasting your time with most of those questions. i have no issue with questions as a game opener and see it as a good styalistic choice regardless of how aggressive/reserved of a player you choose to be. The important thing is to have questions that help you in the game. I don't think you have that optimized yet.

What's your read on mothrax?
---------------------------------------------------------------
@Hunt - Andrew is town. He's aggressively scumhunting, being loud and proud of beliefs, and making maneuvers that are not optimal for scum. He's a pretty solid town read for me. ...his cases are pretty weak though

What are your thoughts on Guderian?

[andrew94]

Preview Edit: Pressing preview, I see no other posts than the ones that were there when I pressed reply,

no... what i meant was for example

im making this long post: xysafjpasjaejf;s;aslf

i press the 'submit' button.
if for example 3 posts were made before (lets say huntman 1 post thor 1 post and park 1 post)

it will be like this:
huntman said: sup
thor said:yo
park said:hi

my post of: xysafjpsiafhoroefe; etc

then a new submit button will pop up.

when i write preview edit: i meant when i see someone posted when i was posting, i comment on their post as well. you will be able to see all posts posted when u were writing your post


try it later with a lot of people online, type something in, wait ages before pressing submit, and you will see what is described above

mania, i echo what bazz said. i think there were some questions about you (by park or hunt? )

[Guderian]

long day, back online again.

First, andrew, I want to tell you currently I dont believe you are scum (based on your seemingly uncaring guns blazing posts) but I caution you not to keep contradicting yourself so much when you play. (from his iso)

7

hunt gets a C- for sitting on the fence.
guderian seems to be tunneling on park and me. any reason apart that the others are all newbies?

12

@guderian i didnt say you were tunneling me.

35

unvote@@vote guderian

37

i didnt drop my vote on maniamax,

@ parknourie. You promised some analysis. You haven't posted since then. Please post something.

@ maniamax

Well, I'm not sure that Park is scum, it's just that out of who have posted off of, he's the only one I got a scummy read off of. Again, I know it's not much to go on, but I've yet to get a "scummy" feeling off anyone else.

you dont seem to be trying to hard to find someone else who may be scum. I dont like this.

I also dont like mothrax current scumhunting, or better yet, lack of hit. Please post some opinions.

and ooBAZZoo, I would like to see a vote from you. You have been rather wishy washy so far.

[Guderian]

@ mod, if io_sambio_io continues to not play the game can we consider getting a replacement. Its like playing a video game with 1/9 this screen blank.

[andrew94]

stop misreping me
i fos'ed maniamax i even explained that in a post

i attempted my post 12 was wrong later

[andrew94]

edit
admitted*

[parknourie]

Alright, alright, I was just away for a while. Had a freaking nightmarish English Exam in school.
I just scanned through people's posts and I think I have nothing much to say really. Just pointing out Mothrax's dodgy single post while I was gone.

To answer Guderian's questions....
1. would you explain your previous vote on me in the context of tells and scumhunting
-The previous vote I gave you were quite simple in reason. You seemed to have just voted me in the vain of Thor. And also, I find your action of voting me off straight after Thor as well. I guess Andrew voted you for this but Huntman finds it quite natural. I dunno to be honest. I find Mothrax the scummiest atm.

2. what is your opinion on Thor right now? why or why not does he appear town or scum.
-I had to read all over again (since Bazz was the only one who told me that everybody has equal chances of being scum) but I still read town from him.

3. can you give me your thoughts on ooBazzoo, and his first significant post.
-I think BAZZ's first "significant" post has quite helped me to get on track of this game more properly. He really made me open my eyes properly (ㅡ.^). I read wise-town on him but maybe thats mainly because he sort of helped me out.

[Guderian]

hope your english exam went well, good to see you posting.

And,

@@vote: Maniamax

as town my only weapon is my vote and I feel I need to use it now to create some pressure and elicit some response from mania who I see as rather like a limp fish so far in this game.

[andrew94]

... way to not answer ur irregularities

[Guderian]

@ andrew who are you talking about?

[andrew94]

stop misreping me
i fos'ed maniamax i even explained that in a post

i

attempted

admitted my post 12 was wrong later

[Guderian]

i am merely bringing up the posts where you contradict yourself. had it been any other play, you would have endorsed the action. because its you, you dont want it pointed out. Note, I am merely saying if you are town to watch what you post, because it could turn my otherwise town read of you into something else.

any more questions?

analysis on anyone else?

[andrew94]

now, your whole case hinges on your 'i didnt see thor unvote' + 'rolefishing'

i already explained that your first point of me contradicting myself was void, and my second point was that it slipped my mind about my tunneling comment.
AND HERE IT IS:
Post review
At least one new post has been made to this topic. You may wish to review your post in light of this.
i was posting when you were posting and here it is -->i find myself less likely to believe that you missed it


and my alignment doesnt change according to what i post and that sounded like a threat to back off

[parknourie]

I might be sort of repeating Bazz or even Andrew here, but,
Maniamax: Can't you make up your own case of strong scum candidate rather than just sitting on me because I was popular lynch destination? Just stealthily slipping into voting via other people's scum-read on me is quite scummy. Although you do think that I'm the top scum candidate for you atm, try to read on other people not just focus on me who got your vote quite early in this game.

[ooBAZZoo]

and ooBAZZoo, I would like to see a vote from you. You have been rather wishy washy so far.

This is a fair point, however I will say that I'm pretty conservative with my vote. I'd rather vote somebody I find significantly scummier than other players, and whose play justifies their lynch, rather than voting for the sake of voting. Right now, in this game, I feel we have very little information to go on, and I'm struggling to get a strong scum read off anyone. I have some time now to read through the thread properly so you might see a vote from me soon, you might not.

---

What's your read on mothrax?

This is my analysis, typing as I go:
- He hasn't posted as much as some, so could do with some more posts from him (although I can hardly talk on the lack of posting front I guess).
- Much of what he says seems well thought out and logical (similar to Guderian), but I guess this is what you'd expect of an SE.
- He has a strange altercation with andrew about his name (page 6). Could just be pointless posting, but could also be filling the thread out with posts because he's too aware that he hasn't posted much yet (although this is pretty thin in terms of a scum-motive if I'm honest).
- Generally then, the content of his posts doesn't give me anything to go on.
- However, my main issue is his vote for Park, putting him at L-1 (this has been mentioned by others I think). His vote (post #111) comes after what seems like a general post about things he's noticed in the thread in his absence. Within this post it never seems like Mothrax is finding Park scummy, instead he attacks him for being 'obtuse', for having 'incredibly flawed' logic, and for not realising that roles are selected randomly (which Park clearly missed ). Whilst these are valid issues with Park's play, they aren't really ones that would be motivated by scum, so despite these, Mothrax never actually provides justification for his vote. As a result, putting Park at L-1 screams of scum opportunism. Interestingly, his posting has also been infrequent lately as the heat has been taken off Park.
- Conclusion: Purely because of his opportunistic vote he falls on the scummy side of the fence to me. However, his general posting has been town/null other than that, and he hasn't posted enough for me to confirm any scumminess. As a result, I don't find him scummy enough to justify his lynch yet (I say 'yet', because as we near the deadline I will have to re-evaluate what degree of scummy play justifies someone's lynch).

---

I'm struggling to get a read on Maniamax. He's undeniably a newbie (no offence intended), but I can't determine whether newb-scum or newb-town. Posts like this get me thinking:

Honestly I'm being drawn over to Thor's side. Maybe it's the points in a neat, little list, but

Park hasn't really provided an argument against them

, aside from that Thor is annoyed. Screw it I'm gonna vote for him

My first read of this was newb-town, but the way he casually agrees with Thor, whilst also providing one solid reason (in bold) before voting seems to be actually quite a well thought out. Perhaps this is scum trying to get an easy vote on a bandwagon.
ISOing him shows actually how little he's posted. I'd definitely like to see him contribute more (I know this has been said a few times).
In a normal game, his recent play reads like active-lurking (which again draws me towards a scum-read), but then again he is a newbie, and I myself have admitted that there really isn't much information to go on in terms of forming cases, so his lack of contribution could be a null-tell.

---

As I predicted, andrew's play is going down the frustratingly sporadic route.
@andrew - Can you please try to make your posts more coherent. Half the time I don't know who you are referring to, or what about.

---

I have my suspicions of Huntman, although can't really place why, even after ISOing him etc. I think its perhaps the way he is trying to avoid causing any controversy whilst still include himself in discussion.
Also, twice he's defended Maniamax (ISO #4, #10), and twice Mothrax (ISO #12, #13). If he is newb-scum, one of these could be scum defending their scum partner (although perhaps this would be too obvious, even for a new player like Huntman).

---

Sorry if this post doesn't create enough stir, but I really don't have any strong reads, even after re-reading and ISOing people. I'm gonna work on some pertinent questions to ask to try and get some more opinions going. Shall be posting them shortly.

[ooBAZZoo]

@Parknourie -
1) What do you make of Sambo's inactivity?
2) Would you be prepared to vote him because of it if we can't agree on another player to lynch before the deadline?
3) Do you think you have scumhunted more than Maniamax? If so, how?

@Huntman -
1) What do you make of the Parknourie wagon loosing its momentum?
2) How scummy do you rate Parknourie in relation to others?
3) If you were scum, who would you nightkill?

@Mothrax -
1) How confident are you that Parknourie is scum? (as a percentage)
2) If he is your top suspects (I assume he is because your vote is still on him) who is your second?
3) If you were scum, who would you nightkill?

@andrew -
1) Who is your strongest town read?
2) What is your read on Thor (if he isn't your answer to Q1)?

[mothrax]

@Baz:
1:more confident than i am of any one else at this poit.
2: Thor- je is playing all IC little scumhunting this game. His altercation with park makes me believe that one of them is scum.
3: Thor If he is town.

[Thor665]

@andrew/parknourie - could one of you provide me some links to a couple of previous parknourie games? Thank you.