Open 260 - Tit For Tat - Game Over

[saporovirus]

@ Lew: I don't think Werewolf's the fashionable BW at this point, I think Consig still is, and Gonzoooo is gaining momentum. As far as I can tell I'm the only one voting for him now. Also, consig wasn't particularly fashionable when I voted for him, I think I might have been third? In fact, you voted for him after I did, for pretty much the same reasons, so ummm I don't think Consig's a great lynch and I don't like how the wagon has built up against him. Simple as that.

I

had

a suspicion of you (no longer do) because of this post:

what kind of randomness was I supposed to underline in my vote on consigliere? I even mocked his post quoting it word for word...

@sapo: you are correct, dj's vote is not right. It is too silly. I was over-generous in my previous post. But I like keeping my vote on mallow better. DJ just gives me the "I'm so smart I see scumtells that other don't heh heh heh" vibe.

I didn't understand what you were saying about the "randomness" of your vote, but now I get it. You're responding to DJ's accusation that you were trying to hard to make it clear that your post was a joke-vote. You also appear to be quoting me as thinking DJ's vote is "too silly," whereas what I actually said was this:

[quote = "me"]I like that lew acknowledges dj's vote for him as a pro-town tactic, even if it's not a very substantial reason to vote someone.[/quote]

I wasn't saying his vote was too silly to start a wagon, I was saying it was good you weren't OMGUSing DJ for starting an early RVS wagon based upon a minor point that was likely to just fall apart soon.

So, TLDR: I thought you were trying to misrepresent people until I realized English is not your first language. I am currently out to lunch on you.

Vote Count

Consigliere (3) - implosion, werewolf555, smashbro_of_the_SSS
werewolf555 (2) - Gonzoooo, saporovirus
Zhero (1) - don_johnson
Powerrox93 (1) - Zhero
Gonzoooo (1) - lewarcher82

Not Voting (4) - Consigliere, Xenophon, Powerrox93, mallowgeno,

With 12 alive it is 7 to lynch. The deadline is set for the end of November 21st, PST.

[lewarcher82]

mmh, googled it, but didn't find anything: what does "to be out to lunch on sbd" mean?

[don_johnson]

lew: i will take a closer look at 106 for you.

I unvoted Gonzoooooooo in that post. Lol @ you trying to establish some connection there.

not trying to "establish" a connection. just pointing one out. like i said, connections are more useful after flips have occurred. "Lol" is a poor response to just about anything. if you have something useful to say, say it. otherwise, ignore the comment.

Why are you so certain that Consig is town?

i don't recall saying consig was town or implying "certainty" in that direction.

[saporovirus]

mmh, googled it, but didn't find anything: what does "to be out to lunch on sbd" mean?

It means "lacking in good mental judgement" or "being unattentive." I didn't use it too well; I meant "unsure." Even people who've been speaking English for a large part of their lives sometimes misuse idiomatic phrases.

[implosion]

All of my fosses have inexplicably vanished, and none of the four I mentioned have posted in the last day (Consig is just gone, and werewolf's been gone for about 2 days)... I really wish they were here to give some kind of reply to my suspicions against them, especially Powerrox and werewolf. Powerrox, why aren't you giving any strong opinions? Who are your biggest fosses? Why? werewolf, why so quiet? Can you further explain the reasoning behind your two non-RVS votes (ISO 3 and 4)? Gonzoooo's constant sureness could be just a personality trait, but still... how are you so apparently sure about literally everything? Is it just in your personality? Consig.... I've kind of given up on. He's gone, so I'm assuming. If he ever gets back, I'd like him to say... something. About someone. An opinion about someone.

As for Zhero; I see where the people that think he's scum are coming from, but I also think he's been producing town behavior. Particularly, his most recent post asks a lot of good questions and also raises a good point about the apparent false dichotomy that Lewarcher is presenting. I don't know if Lewarcher is trying to convince the town of this, or if he's just convinced himself, but no such absolute exists. Lewarcher, comments on this?

[Gonzoooo]

3) I said my opinion, you said yours. If I were scum, I would join the first BW regardless from the alignment of the voted player, and then I would cautiously get off.

I think the weakness of everything lew said in his wall post earlier is self-evident but I want to bring this quote to attention from it. Because in this game, lew jumps on the first BW (Consigliere) and then neat as can be gets off the wagon to vote for me later.

Exactly

what he said he would do as scum.

Gonzoooo's constant sureness could be just a personality trait, but still... how are you so apparently sure about literally everything? Is it just in your personality?

There is absolutely no benefit to using weasel words like, "I think " or "probably". Tell me, who are you more likely to listen to? The guy who says, "Zhero is scum" or the guy who says, "Zhero is probably, maybe scum". And tell me who you think of those two is more likely to be scum leaving themselves backdoors to distance themselves from their opinions. I believe what I say and thus am not afraid to state my opinion definitively.

[Powerrox93]

Powerrox, why aren't you giving any strong opinions?

Because it feels like everything in this game has its origins from the smilegate thing that I don't understand at all.
[quotequote="implosion"] Who are your biggest fosses?[/quote]
Still DJ

[lewarcher82]

dude, what is the matter with you? I said if I were scum I would jump on the first bw and then, if the bw were on my partner, I would jump off. Why would I jump off a bw on a town if I were scum??? And how likely is it that consig is scum and I am his partner?

This is, dear Gonzooo, another example of how you distort things in order to place your FoS on random people based on random and invalid arguments.

Your logic is very weak, almost outrageously weak, and I am surprised that no one else notices it.

As for post 106:
I have pointed out that you deny the relevance of several aspects of consig's behaviour, and you don't even bother explaining why.
I have pointed out how you lied about not referring to me when you mentioned the fact that some people based their consig-vote on his voting a non-existing player.
I have pointed out your contraddiction: you accused people of being scummy because they did not push for lynches (saporo) and at the same time you suspect every single player who joined the only bw that was created so far.

These are the reasons why I am voting you.
Please, defend.

[Zhero]

i don't recall saying consig was town or implying "certainty" in that direction.

Then why is it bad to pressure him for information?

There is absolutely no benefit to using weasel words like, "I think " or "probably". Tell me, who are you more likely to listen to? The guy who says, "Zhero is scum" or the guy who says, "Zhero is probably, maybe scum". And tell me who you think of those two is more likely to be scum leaving themselves backdoors to distance themselves from their opinions. I believe what I say and thus am not afraid to state my opinion definitively.

Eh, I still maintain that wording like that is largely a personality tell.

Because it feels like everything in this game has its origins from the smilegate thing that I don't understand at all.

The Consig wagon? Werewolf's odd jump on it, and weird play in general? Lew's case on Gonzoooo? Mallow's and your own lack of content?

Smiliegate is old news now, are we even reading the same game?

[werewolf555]

The Consig wagon? Werewolf's odd jump on it, and weird play in general?

Actually, I believe I made my point quite clear. I believed that Gonzoo and Consiligare were scumbuddies, and seeing how there were more votes on Consiligare, I thought it was the most economical placing for my vote.

[Alduskkel]

Now searching for replacements for xenophon and Consigliere.

[don_johnson]

zhero, please pay attention to context. it was my understanding that you agreed with the idea that consig was a noob. pressuring a noob is not very fruitful as they generally tend to weave their own lynches. if consig is scum, then thats a good thing, but pressuring him

because he's a noob

is more likely to produce a mislynch. if you actually think he's scum, then by all means, pursue the case. thats not what i saw happening, and i tend to think that gonzo saw the same thing.

i have a couple days off, so i will try to get an analysis of 106 for lew, however, my initial read of it was intepreting it more as a he said-she said type argument. but whatever.

replacements are good here.

[Gonzoooo]

I almost convinced myself to switch back to mallow, but there is no support of it right now, and Consig also seems scummy. However, if anyone decides to vote for mallow, I'll support you.

so which do you find more scummy?

gonzo 37 seems to imply that he agrees with dj's early serious vote, but honestly does not contain enough info to be 100% on that.

I did indeed agree with it. It was a fine vote and a legit point.

Because it feels like everything in this game has its origins from the smilegate thing that I don't understand at all.

lol, no. I think this guy is town though. He's too damn clueless to be faking scum at this point. That or his team is in desperate trouble.

Your logic is very weak, almost outrageously weak, and I am surprised that no one else notices it.

Yes, I'm sure it's that my logic is so weak and you are a super genius that no one else sees how ragingly scummy I am. Or or or, you're wrong and everyone else sees that. Deep thoughts indeed.

I have pointed out that you deny the relevance of several aspects of consig's behaviour, and you don't even bother explaining why.

Because I know the difference between VIs and scum. You fall in the former category and need to play more mafia before you can tell the difference.

I have pointed out how you lied about not referring to me when you mentioned the fact that some people based their consig-vote on his voting a non-existing player.

I didn't say I didn't mention you, as far as I recall. I believe I said I didn't mention ONLY you. There is a difference.

I have pointed out your contraddiction: you accused people of being scummy because they did not push for lynches (saporo) and at the same time you suspect every single player who joined the only bw that was created so far.

This does not make sense. 1) I can't push every single lynch cause I only have one vote. 2) I don't suspect every single player on the Consig wagon. I haven't said I suspected you at all have I? Your point is that I'm playing aggressively. Guess what, that's not a scumtell.

These are the reasons why I am voting you.
Please, defend.

Your reasons are terrible and were just stomped upon. Best to find a newly terrible case to push so people can ignore you even more!

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

I almost convinced myself to switch back to mallow, but there is no support of it right now, and Consig also seems scummy. However, if anyone decides to vote for mallow, I'll support you.

so which do you find more scummy?

Mallow. At the time I switched my vote, it was closer, with Mallow being slightly above Consig. After seeing what Mallow has posted/not posted since, I would have to say Mallow by a bit. To answer your inevitable follow up question of why I switched, there was absolutely no support for a mallow wagon at that point, and since I think both of them are scum, I didn't mind switching the vote. Since the beginning of the game, mallow has only voted twice in RVS, where once was his first post and the second was the whole, voting with don thing, ans subsequent unvote. As I said before, I don't like how he jumped on and off quickly. In addition, he has only given his views when specifically asked, and has done

little

nothing in the way of scumhunting.

Oh. but at least we know he thinks that Consig is town.



I don't know how I feel about Consig replacing out. I'm leaning toward it being scum under too much pressure and not enough interest to try. Aside from the replacing out thought, I still think Consig and whoever replaces in is scum. Consig's sole vote was on someone not even in the game, and after finding that out, did not vote for someone who he actually thought was scummy. So far Consig said he did not have any reads, which is interesting since people had been voting him and therefore were taking stances.


Also, I'm very tempted to vote Powerrox, and without the two above, I would be voting for him. He is lurking, but not active lurking. He's not helping at all, and definitely not posting enough, but he doesn't seem to want to be replaced, because he keeps coming back. Either post something of decent size, or replace. Seriously, if you don't have the time, you shouldn't be playing.






@ lew and don. You mention that you found my switch to Consig opportunistic an scummy. I really don't see how, seeing as I said that I find both scummy and while I did vote to the more popular wagon, it was so that my vote was actually being used where it could be. By no means did I forget Mallow, I even said that I would go back to his wagon if there was support.




finally,

unvote, vote: Mallowgeno

because as I said, you are scummy. I'd happily switch back between either of the two (Consig and mallow) but I would like to see a bit from Consig's replacement too.

[mallowgeno]

Will catch up after school. Sorry guys

[lewarcher82]

Because it feels like everything in this game has its origins from the smilegate thing that I don't understand at all.

lol, no. I think this guy is town though. He's too damn clueless to be faking scum at this point. That or his team is in desperate trouble.

I had some doubts, but I now agree with Gonzooo's reading of Powerrox.

Your logic is very weak, almost outrageously weak, and I am surprised that no one else notices it.

Yes, I'm sure it's that my logic is so weak and you are a super genius that no one else sees how ragingly scummy I am. Or or or, you're wrong and everyone else sees that. Deep thoughts indeed.

Oh, dear...

I have pointed out that you deny the relevance of several aspects of consig's behaviour, and you don't even bother explaining why.

Because I know the difference between VIs and scum. You fall in the former category and need to play more mafia before you can tell the difference.

Do not worry, I have a longer experience than you think, and this is exactly how I scumhunt on day 1. I try to see if very productive players actually pay attention to what they write, in order to distinguish pro-town attitude from scummy attempts at seeming pro-town. Also, I am enough experienced not to be hurt by players who use the subtle and smart tecnique of personal attacks.

I have pointed out how you lied about not referring to me when you mentioned the fact that some people based their consig-vote on his voting a non-existing player.

I didn't say I didn't mention you, as far as I recall. I believe I said I didn't mention ONLY you. There is a difference.

No, this answer is not satisfactory. You were referring to me, quoting a post of mine and said that I was voting consig for his vote on a non-existing player. Then I showed you that I had

already

explicitely said that it was NOT one of my reasons, and you said that the post was not directed to me. Now you say that you meant not only to me...
but still, I had very clearly said that I did not consider that vote scummy. So: were you or were you not convinced that the my reason for fosing consig was his vote on a non-existing player?
The only non-scummy explanation for the superficiality you show in regard of this facts is that you think that I am an idiot.

I have pointed out your contraddiction: you accused people of being scummy because they did not push for lynches (saporo) and at the same time you suspect every single player who joined the only bw that was created so far.

This does not make sense. 1) I can't push every single lynch cause I only have one vote. 2) I don't suspect every single player on the Consig wagon. I haven't said I suspected you at all have I? Your point is that I'm playing aggressively. Guess what, that's not a scumtell.

Still, if u regard as poor performers both voters and non-voters, it is hard to understand your definition of sucm-hunt. Is it perhaps "doing exactly what Gonzooo wants"? I always look for contraddictions. You are always aggressive, I always point out contraddictions. I will tolerate your style, you better tolerate mine.

[Powerrox93]

Mod: I'm requesting to be replaced now.

Reasons I don't wanna talk about

[Zhero]

Ah, hmm.

Unvote

This is becoming sort of a quiet game.

zhero, please pay attention to context. it was my understanding that you agreed with the idea that consig was a noob. pressuring a noob is not very fruitful as they generally tend to weave their own lynches. if consig is scum, then thats a good thing, but pressuring him because he's a noob is more likely to produce a mislynch. if you actually think he's scum, then by all means, pursue the case. thats not what i saw happening, and i tend to think that gonzo saw the same thing.

My original post could have been better worded there, sorry for the confusion.

[don_johnson]

we need good and active replacements.

i could be persuaded to the mallow wagon at this point.

sss: the move was "oppurtunistic" in the way that your vote went to the bigger wagon instead of pressuring your top suspect. shit happens. if you are sincere about mallow i am willing to listen. would like more from him atm.

we could have an extremely active town and an extremely lurky scum team.

working on getting to 106 lew, but its difficult because the argument just looks so opinionated on either side, but i will get to it by friday.

[implosion]

we could have an extremely active town and an extremely lurky scum team.

What do you mean by this? Are you saying it's likely and/or you think it, or are you just saying it's a possibility? It being a possibility is kind of implicit, and I don't really see why you would just say something is possible, since really anything is possible.

Since we have 3 replacements pending, there really isn't much to do until they arrive. We could still scumhunt in the mean time, but 2 of my fosses were replaced, so when the replacements arrive we'll be able to (hopefully) pick up the pace of the game again.

[Alduskkel]

Now searching for a replacement for Powerrox93.

[mallowgeno]

Grr had lots of hw...will try to post later tonight.

[lewarcher82]

Zhero, a question, out of curiosity and absolutely irrelevant. Do you usually unvote if the player you are voting asks for replacement? I mean, as far as I see, if you consider someone scummy, you must necessarily assume that his behaviour was conditioned by his role. Which will remain the same after replacing.
I just ask because I normally do not unvote in such a case.

[don_johnson]

we could have an extremely active town and an extremely lurky scum team.

What do you mean by this?

i mean that scumhunting while so many replacements are pending may be bad for town. if scum is lurking, we could just self-destruct and hand the game away. i agree with this part of what you said:

Since we have 3 replacements pending, there really isn't much to do until they arrive.

i would like replacements to be found and to produce reads asap. it will be easier for them to do so if we don't rattle off another three pages of wall texts before they are found. i am going to work on what i promised lew, but until we get some fresh meat i'm not going to be flooding the thread.

[Zhero]

Zhero, a question, out of curiosity and absolutely irrelevant. Do you usually unvote if the player you are voting asks for replacement? I mean, as far as I see, if you consider someone scummy, you must necessarily assume that his behaviour was conditioned by his role. Which will remain the same after replacing.
I just ask because I normally do not unvote in such a case.

Depends on the situation. In this case, I was suspicious that his noncommittal stance in the game was an attempt to active lurk, but replacing out possibly indicates that he actually just didn't have a handle on the game, for whatever reason.