Mini 1077 Lost: Season Two (Over)

[Callandor]

Callandor - All of your points are simply twisting the semantics of what I'm saying now. You're right, I voted you for contradictions, which I do find scummy. But there's this wonderful thing called ulterior motive - I found the contradiction scummy. I found Enigma still scummier at the time, however, so I applied some slight pressure. You cooked like rotten clams. Thus, the vote. The fact that you're saying I'm just misguided town is not earning you town points. By the way, you're exactly right - your focus should be on scumhunting, not analyzing a case that you think is poor. The fact that you're refusing to come off of your heels besides a lurker vote is not good pro-town play.

Okay, keep moving the goalposts, it's fine. Pretty sure I didn't vote him for lurking, he's also scummy. Hence 'scummiest' active lurker, he's posted a few times and said fuck all, dramonic's not posted (idk if he's posting in other games will check) since that slapfight with chesskid iirc.

I'm familiar with friendly neighbour, very easily testable claim. I don't see the point of narrowing down his target pool btw, there's real no advantage to it that I can see. Plus letting him pick himself gives us more info in and of itself, especially if he's scum.

I don't think mini normals are comparable to mini themes on a game theory thing, most people's pet project are their mini themes and they're a lot more crazy in general and I'd think more likely to contain a vig like role.

[Callandor]

Why is he scummier than Dram who is also way lurking?

Why should we be going after active lurkers as opposed to directly scummy players like Enigma, Jason or Vezok?

It's funny, I said I found enigma and jason pro town (even went in to some detail), so I'm not sure why you asked me that question. Vezok's absolutely useless, which is what I expect, but I don't find him scummy, I can't knowing how he plays.

[Callandor]

Actually dram last posted in here tuesday so I guess that's moot.

[Enigma]

Just posting to say V/LA until Sunday.
Exams

[vezokpiraka]

I think we should let jason live one day and kill him tomorrow.

Jason you will use choose your target at random from a pool decided by the town. I don't want you to tell a scum buddy or send a message to the guy who is dying.

[jasonT1981]

Having major powercut issues this evening... postings will be sporadic depending on electric staying on... its been off and on 4 times this evening so far.

[chesskid3]

I think we should let jason live one day and kill him tomorrow.

Jason you will use choose your target at random from a pool decided by the town. I don't want you to tell a scum buddy or send a message to the guy who is dying.

Dude if he gets a message through he is not tomorrow's lynch wtf

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also, in a 9:2:1 setup, we do have the luxury of vigging stupid players. If this was 9:3 or 9:3:1, I'd agree. But I disagree at the moment.

Assuming a mislynch every day and no blocks, and that the 3rd party is a non-killing faction (possible due to Reck's past setup with Lost), vigging a player like Gandalf, who is an idiot and further proving this with every post, we would be in a 3:2:1 on D3, similar to a lylo on D3, only with the 3rd party involved. Obviously if the 3rd party is a killing faction, we have a whole different ballgame on our hands.

Your second paragraph explains why, quite convincingly, your opinion in the first statement is bad. You are assuming to know that we don’t have a 3rd Party killing role.

I am vehemently against policy lynches, especially on D1. They play into the hands of scum, so unless you're suggesting we have a good cop/investigative PR, which I'm not putting my money on, there's nothing to be gained for it.

Who in the hell is talking about a Policy lynch? If Gandalf is playing scummy you lynch him. That’s not policy that’s how Mafia is played.

The rest of that paragraph where you ramble on about past gambits and your personal experience is noted. I disagree with shooting Gandalf and would rather lynch him if he is scum.

ALSO, anyone notice Gandalf's "Why the fuck did he claim?" post?

Yes. What about it? Do you see it as scummy? If so is my statement about the claim scummy?

It's funny, I said I found enigma and jason pro town (even went in to some detail), so I'm not sure why you asked me that question. Vezok's absolutely useless, which is what I expect, but I don't find him scummy, I can't knowing how he plays.

Answer the question. I asked you why we should be going after scummy lurkers as opposed to scummy active players. You didn’t say that Toon was the scummiest player. You said he was the scummiest lurker.

That’s my list of players I found actively scummy when I made the post

I think we should let jason live one day and kill him tomorrow.

What is this? This makes ZERO sense.

The only reason you actively keep Jason alive if you think he is scummy is to have him prove his ability. It makes no sense to immediately kill him afterward when that ability may be able to be confirmed.

[AGar]

I'm familiar with friendly neighbour, very easily testable claim. I don't see the point of narrowing down his target pool btw, there's real no advantage to it that I can see. Plus letting him pick himself gives us more info in and of itself, especially if he's scum.

Ok, calling a Jason-Callandor pairing, reliant on Callandor flip.

Apparently you never thought of the possibility that he could pick his scumbuddy and forge a fakeclaim if he's scum? Massive scumslip right there.

Echo-ing CK3 on the vezok point.

@MoI:

I don't find Gandalf scummy. I find him to be dead-weight and of the same caliber as DMSIS, holding the same mental capacity. Which means I expect him to do something absolutely fuckall stupid in the event that he finds the opportunity. And yes, I am assuming a 3rd party non-killing role. If we have a vig, mafia and 3rd party killing role, all it takes is one night and a mislynch D2 to put us into a loss before D3 starts if the cards fall in a certain way. 4 people dying through one day/night cycle in a 12p game is not going to ever be balanced for town. So I say vig him. Because I don't want him around in endgame because I don't feel he's capable. Gandalf's "Why the fuck did you claim?" grabbed my attention because of his early claim. It's a direct contradiction to his actions earlier, where he openly - with 0 pressure - started a claim of his own.

[jasonT1981]

I agree, I would rather have the person I send it to narrowed down to a pool of 2 or 3 than picking myself now that it is out. My original thought was to send it to CK in the night before I claimed.. that way it would have shut him up lol

[chesskid3]

it would have shut me up lol so why didn't you like respond in a pro-town manner to attacks against you and then not be today's lynch and then do that and then yeah >_<

/waterunderthebridge

[jasonT1981]

I felt I was trying, however I fguess I started to get stressed, I unfortinutly do this too much as town I feel... claiming early I mean its something I have tried to work on grrr.

Anyway, I feel Vez comments are weird,... If I can get confirmed why would I be tomorrows lynch?

[Callandor]

Answer the question. I asked you why we should be going after scummy lurkers as opposed to scummy active players. You didn’t say that Toon was the scummiest player. You said he was the scummiest lurker.

That’s my list of players I found actively scummy when I made the post

I don't find any of the active players as scummy as Toon Fighter. I also said active lurker, as that's pretty much what he's done in all his posts, which is scummy in and of itself, but his is worse than others for reasons I've touched on. I don't vote players who aren't the scummiest, so generally if I vote someone it's because they're the scummiest, I assumed that goes without saying though, so didn't think the clarify.

Apparently you never thought of the possibility that he could pick his scumbuddy and forge a fakeclaim if he's scum? Massive scumslip right there.

Apparently you missed the fact I thought he was town, I don't see why I'd assume him-scum after thinking he was town and the claim making reasonable sense, you're also missing the fact unless scum are retarded that's a horrible strategy, for a number of reasons, but particularly in this set-up (or potential set-up). I can go into detail but they're pretty obvious.

How does narrowing down help again? It means if scum want to try and kill the player he sends it to they've a better chance, sure we could pick 3 townie players who we think are unlikely scumbuddies, I guess but it doesn't seem the optimal strategy to me, I prefer the trade off.


We should lynch Toon Fighter btw. 'I'M NOT THE SCUMMIEST LURKER DRAM IS' is comedy gold.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI: I don't find Gandalf scummy. I find him to be dead-weight and of the same caliber as DMSIS, holding the same mental capacity. Which means I expect him to do something absolutely fuckall stupid in the event that he finds the opportunity. And yes, I am assuming a 3rd party non-killing role. If we have a vig, mafia and 3rd party killing role, all it takes is one night and a mislynch D2 to put us into a loss before D3 starts if the cards fall in a certain way. 4 people dying through one day/night cycle in a 12p game is not going to ever be balanced for town. So I say vig him. Because I don't want him around in endgame because I don't feel he's capable. Gandalf's "Why the fuck did you claim?" grabbed my attention because of his early claim. It's a direct contradiction to his actions earlier, where he openly - with 0 pressure - started a claim of his own.

1. If this is your true opinion of Gandalf why the hell aren’t you suggesting Vezok as a Vig target. He is every bit the measure of Gandalf if we are discussing VIs bound to make mind-numbingly bad moves.
2. So now you think there is a Vig? You and I just spent several posts going back and forth discussing the likelihood of one. You seem pretty firmly in favor of the theory that it was less likely than more likely. That you don’t seem to think a Serial Killer might be the 3rd party seems very disconnected. And there will not be a Serial Killer and any sort of Vig in the same set-up. So the whole concept of 4 deaths in a cycle isn’t really valid.
3. Good point on Gandalf’s reaction. The fact that it echoed mine made me think it was a logical thought process.

I don’t seem to be getting much traction on the Enigma lynch. Jason’s claim, painful as it was from a Town perspective, makes him a not optimal lynch today.

@Vezo, Toon and Dram

– You each have 1 post to make a good argument as to why I shouldn’t vote for you, in the form of a solid case on your top scum suspect. Go!

[gandalf5166]

My claim was made with reasoning. Not reasoning I'll explain to you as it could hurt my potential WC, but reasoning. Jason's was just stupid, as he had literally NO wagon. It was chess. And chess is chess.

[AGar]

Apparently you never thought of the possibility that he could pick his scumbuddy and forge a fakeclaim if he's scum? Massive scumslip right there.

Apparently you missed the fact I thought he was town, I don't see why I'd assume him-scum after thinking he was town and the claim making reasonable sense, you're also missing the fact unless scum are retarded that's a horrible strategy, for a number of reasons, but particularly in this set-up (or potential set-up). I can go into detail but they're pretty obvious.

How does narrowing down help again? It means if scum want to try and kill the player he sends it to they've a better chance, sure we could pick 3 townie players who we think are unlikely scumbuddies, I guess but it doesn't seem the optimal strategy to me, I prefer the trade off.

So you're willing to blindly buy into your townread of a player and risk the town getting duped into him picking his scumbuddy as the "confirmer."

Explain how it's a horrible strategy? He claims, he uses his partner, and then he walks clean. Nothing says his PM has to be directed at town or it won't go through.

[AGar]

1. If this is your true opinion of Gandalf why the hell aren’t you suggesting Vezok as a Vig target. He is every bit the measure of Gandalf if we are discussing VIs bound to make mind-numbingly bad moves.
2. So now you think there is a Vig? You and I just spent several posts going back and forth discussing the likelihood of one. You seem pretty firmly in favor of the theory that it was less likely than more likely. That you don’t seem to think a Serial Killer might be the 3rd party seems very disconnected. And there will not be a Serial Killer and any sort of Vig in the same set-up. So the whole concept of 4 deaths in a cycle isn’t really valid.
3. Good point on Gandalf’s reaction. The fact that it echoed mine made me think it was a logical thought process.

1. Because I just finished a game as scum with Vezok, and he actually played well. I went in with the judgment of "OMG Vezok can't play," but prior to him being replaced, he played competently, and showed pretty good understanding in our scum QT.

2. I have given no indication into the likelihood of anything regarding a vig in the setup. I have said I want Gandalf vigged. You and someone else debated on the likelihood of a vig, where you mentioned the vig pool is higher than the no-vig pool. Someone asked the last time they were in a mini with none, I gave an example. Then I followed up with my data. I also said themes are unique, and I never said "There's probably not a vig." Also, the last line echoes what I had said.

3. Yeah, it slipped by at first, then I was iso-ing and I caught it.

@Gandalf - No. You claimed completely unprovoked, and as far as I'm concerned, you're worthy of a vigging, and if you don't die due to it, we lynch you. Your play was stupid. I really care nothing else on what "logic" you have, it was a bad play.

[gandalf5166]

@Gandalf - No. You claimed completely unprovoked, and as far as I'm concerned, you're worthy of a vigging, and if you don't die due to it, we lynch you. Your play was stupid. I really care nothing else on what "logic" you have, it was a bad play.

I actually claimed because if I see it as likely that I might be recruited in the near future and the odds for scum don't look good, I want to be able to tell you guys and you lynch me before it happens without it seeming like a desperate jester gambit. But do you really want to lynch someone who is almost certainly not scum, at least currently, when you could lynch someone who IS scum, currently?

[AGar]

See I don't want to lynch you yet. Why are you twisting what I say?

Also, that post is a massive crap post. "I want you to lynch me before I get recruited. Because I think I might get recruited. But it sucks for scum still. But why would you lynch town?"

My opinion right now would be that you're a standard mechanic traitor pulling a PGO bluff to avoid any targets other than recruitment. Since technically right now you're town, my aim is not to lynch you. Now either 1 of 2 things is happening:

1) I'm right. You're completely lying to avoid getting vigged/copped/docced. In that event, you're worth a vig bullet every bit, and we send you on your merry way.

2) I'm wrong. You're not lying. The vig target flips you to scum. We lynch you tomorrow.

Simple, really. We avoid scum getting their third member for a long period of time, and we move on with the game, without the lingering distraction of you trying to draw the entire game's attention to yourself.

I'm really feeling a fullclaim right now, personally. Others' opinions? (Lolpun)

[vezokpiraka]

MoI is scum.

Every post he makes is just points being addressed at people. I don't think i ever saw him post a scum list or any suspects for that matter.

unvote
vote MoI

[MagnaofIllusion]

So you're willing to blindly buy into your townread of a player and risk the town getting duped into him picking his scumbuddy as the "confirmer."

Are you thinking about this argument regarding Jason picking a scum-buddy before you make it? If we are indeed in a 9-2-1 set-up Jason, as scum who made a horrible fake-claim with little pressure on him, choosing his scum-partner to fake confirm him would be a horrible move. It would out the scum team immediately if either one was ever shown to be scum. That’s a very high risk for the minimal reward.

That said I agree that giving him 3 Town agreed upon Town reads is probably the best way to go in making an effort to actually confirm his claim.

1. Because I just finished a game as scum with Vezok, and he actually played well. I went in with the judgment of "OMG Vezok can't play," but prior to him being replaced, he played competently, and showed pretty good understanding in our scum QT.

My direct experience with Vezok isn’t so positive. All the games we have shared have been of dubious quality, regardless of his alignment. My direct experience with Gandalf is much more positive than that with Vezok.

MoI is scum.

Every post he makes is just points being addressed at people. I don't think i ever saw him post a scum list or any suspects for that matter.

1. Read the thread. I listed a agreeable lynch list at my ISO 10 that at least 1 other person (AGar) already commented on.
2. You’ve been asked by multiple people to explain in coherent detail why you statement about Jason being the Day 2 lynch isn’t stupid. Why did you not respond?
3. You do know that questioning people is part of the scum-hunting process, right?

Once I see Toon and Dram’s responses I’ll decide whether you are the best place for my vote.

@MOD – As usual I’ll be V/LA from 4pm EST today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

@MOD – I think Dram is due a Prod.

@MOD – Any updated on the search for Vren’s replacement?

[Callandor]

Isn't a standard mechanic traitor scum? I'm aware there are a number of different variants, but they're all scum really.

It's a terrible strategy for a 2-man scum group due to the rather high potential for a killing 3rd party, if they want to pull it, feel free. So yeah I'm totally willing to risk everything on my town read. What happens if we narrow it down and his scumbuddy is in it anyway?

I'm tending to believe Gandalf, I don't think a fullclaim now is for the best.
Lots of study to do so i'll be sporadic over the weekend.

@ Reck : Prod Dramonic plz

[chesskid3]

I would like to be in the group of 3 people. I'm pretty sure most players here have me down as town, as well.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I would like to be in the group of 3 people. I'm pretty sure most players here have me down as town, as well.

Actually my list would be AGar, Dekes and Call personally.

[chesskid3]

Replace me with AGar and I'd agree.