Newbie 1027: Trick or Treat! [Game Over]

[andrew94]

@bazz 1) possibly huntman(i would be owned if he is a veterian from other site) or park
2) null

suspects: guderian
bazz, please respond to my case againt guderian, basically he unvotes 7 mins after thor, and claims that he didnt see thor unvote. however, he should see it in 'review edit' when someone else posts before you do


maniaman
i explained before

thor, dont be lazy, i posted them a few pages earlier but fine = =
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14309
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14651
http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=14984(this is the game which i pwned)

[ooBAZZoo]

bazz, please respond to my case againt guderian, basically he unvotes 7 mins after thor, and claims that he didnt see thor unvote. however, he should see it in 'review edit' when someone else posts before you do

Personally, I don't think its a solid case. In my first ever game on this site I didn't really know what the 'review edit' page was either. Even if he

is

lying about seeing it, I can't really see a scummy motive behind doing so.
Also (whilst I don't wish to blow my own trumpet), it could be that Guderian was unvoting in response to, not Thor, but me saying this earlier:

I think many of the accusations against Park have arisen for pernickety reasons, and as a result I don’t think the case is anywhere near strong enough to justify his lynch yet.

He could well have agreed with this, and his unvote was irrespective of Thor's.

Are there any other reasons you find him scummy?

[andrew94]

it seems such an coincidence that you decided that you were voting park 'emotionally' after bazz defended park but you didnt give a rat's ass when i defended park.

obs i still think mania is mafia, he hasnt done anything to disprove, active lurks and stuff

therefore, bazz is most prob guderian's scumbuddy.
bazz comes back from long time no posting , tells guderian to 'back off'. guderian backs off. bazz also wants to gain some town cred

[Huntman800]

@Huntman -
1) What do you make of the Parknourie wagon loosing its momentum?
2) How scummy do you rate Parknourie in relation to others?
3) If you were scum, who would you nightkill?

1.) It isn't really. Thor unvoted because he didn't think we were ready for L1, and Andrew, well I admit I'm not entirely sure about him yet (but that doesn't mean I'm leaning towards scumminess). As for the people that are getting second thoughts because Park said he would "restart": Don't. I'm willing to listen to whatever Park has to say, but he can't erase all that suspicion by just saying he will try again. If anything, that just sounds odd to me.
2.) Park is still up there. Like I said, I can't erase my scummy feelings towards the guy because he told me to, but at the same time, I'm not going to outright call anyone mafia yet.
3.) If I was scum, I'd NK either myself or SAMBO. Probably leaning more towards SAMBO. 'Course, I don't know if this is the right choice (never been Scum before), but we (more specifically SAMBO) seem to have the least suspicion pointed at ourselves thus far. The way I see it, if the blame is being thrown around like this, then let someone else get lynched.

Though, @BAZZ: Why ask the third question? What are you hoping to discover by it?

@Hunt - Andrew is town. He's aggressively scumhunting, being loud and proud of beliefs, and making maneuvers that are not optimal for scum. He's a pretty solid town read for me. ...his cases are pretty weak though
What are your thoughts on Guderian?

Like I said, I don't feel any scumminess resonating from Andrew, my vote on him was purely because of RVS. It sounds like you are saying I thought Andrew was scum, but it could have just been you agreeing with me.
As far as Gude is concerned: did you make this post before seeing my above post? Check #181, but if that's not clear enough I can explain it further. Gude doesn't look scummy to me. There doesn't seem to be a reason for him to lie about not seeing your (Thor) unvote, and even if he is, there isn't enough evidence other than that to get any kind of read on him. So, I don't see him as scum, but he hasn't done incredibly much to make me think he is town either.

Gude is null as far as I can see.

[Thor665]

It's not so much the single unvote though (however much andrew is harping on it) the point is that Guderian has a traceable history of trailing my moves this game.

The only question is if you think he's doing this because he's also experienced like me and we are picking up on the same ebb and flow of the game.
or
He's doing it to try to go with the flow of where he thinks a lynch is likely to be.

I still can't put my finger directly on it. But something is twigging me odd about his actions.
I'm also starting to ease back from actually wanting park lynched - looking at his other games he does look like a derpy-da-doo-dah sort of player and that does account for a fair bit of his actions that I felt were scummy today. I'm not strongly against this kill yet, as I think it's dangerous to town to allow park to get anywhere near lylo, but at the same time I'm starting to think andrew was correct about pegging him as town.

BAZZ is trying to stay aloof, which is still a null tell for me.
We still need to see Sambo a bit, as I have no read on that slot yet.
I need to go look at Mania again and see where I feel he falls.

I'll manage to read up sometime Saturday I suspect, I'll probably even manage to clarify my position between Guderian/park at that time. We also need to get a little out of the Sambo slot prior to lynch unless we want to have to deal with a total null read at the start of Day 2.

[andrew94]

.. hunt, guderian also rolefished, which he decided not to talk about after i pointed it out

[KittyMo]

Vote Count IX

[L-3] parknourie - (Maniamax, mothrax)

[L-3] Maniamax - (IO_SAMBO_OI, Guderian)
[L-4] mothrax - (parknourie)
[L-4] Guderian - (andrew94)

[3]

Not Voting

- (Hutman800, ooBAZZoo, Thor665)

With

9

alive, it's

5

to lynch!

Deadline is at Wednesday, November 24, 2010 at 4:30:00 PM (Los Angeles time).

Replacement search for IO_SAMBO_OI will commence tomorrow morning.

[parknourie]

Err... I dont see any posts in which Mainamax unvoted me. Or is it just me who cant find them.

Err, yeah, sorry. I got Maniamax mixed up with someone else. --Kitty

[parknourie]

1) What do you make of Sambo's inactivity?
-Not much. Must be busy.

2) Would you be prepared to vote him because of it if we can't agree on another player to lynch before the deadline?
-I think if we run out of time, the players would go for me. But if we agree on that I'll be fine with it.

3) Do you think you have scumhunted more than Maniamax? If so, how?
-I think I have done my own fair bit in this game. Yes more than Maniamax.

I see Mania as an active lurking newb town. But increasingly, his short useless posts just to make sure that he is still here looks scummy.
@Andrew - I suggest you stop going over your willy-nilly Guderian case. I somehow agree with Huntman and BAZZ on seeing your case on Guderian as a little forced and out of focus.

[Guderian]

Hi guys, got some internet for the moment up in San Fran, but is going to be sporadic at best over next 1-2 days.

Noted! ~Kitty

It's not so much the single unvote though (however much andrew is harping on it) the point is that Guderian has a traceable history of trailing my moves this game.

At best I can see two moves that appear similar, the voting and unvoting. I would like to see a concrete case about that.

I wish I could post a little more, but I am pretty pressed right now.

To preempt any questions of me:

most scummy:
1. maniamax

reasons stated
2. mothrax

little insight, not good vibes
3. thor

last post was interesting to say the least. does not seem to consider other options. his case on me looks forced atm.
4. andrew

could be myself mixing up VI and scum. but what reason would a town have for tunneling. logic isnt present very often so hes hard to read.
5. parknourie

original scum read, but since reversed.
6. ooBAZZoo

good questions, good insight, yet no vote. if this continues, could be a problem. fence sitting and then voting could be a sneaky (or not so) scum ploy
7. huntman

safest town read so far. nothing indicates scum at all.
least scummy:

with IO sambo's slot to be inserted once we got something.

[andrew94]

lol wut?
so your pushing me off as a tunneling townie?
u know how many scum say that?

[Thor665]

most scummy:
1. maniamax

reasons stated

as town my only weapon is my vote and I feel I need to use it now to create some pressure and elicit some response from mania who I see as rather like a limp fish so far in this game.

That's the extent of the case?
I'm not sure I'd make fun of my case on you if that's the situation.

My favorite part of Guderian's post is how I'm scummy for not "considering other options", but his major town tell is the guy I've been telling everyone is town. ::sadface:: Last I checked removing mislynches was pretty darn effective town play.

@park - 2 questions.
1. Have you ever played a game as scum, and if so can you link it?
2. Read on Guderian?

[KittyMo]

Looking for IO_SAMBO_OI replacement.

Edit: chkflip replaces IO_SAMBO_OI.

[chkflip]

/ohai

First game here, only my fourth or firth game of Mafia in general. Excited to play with a new group of people.

[Thor665]

Greetings and welcome.

Please read up and offer your take on the players. I personally want your opinion on parknourie.

[chkflip]

Sure thing, Thorsan.

Soo we are in BUSINESS~ Finally yo!
/confirm
Let's kick off this game as quick as possible!
Random votes are a GO GO GO!!!

vote: Huntman800

The reason? He knows what I know and therefore too much!

Sure, catchy little rhyme scheme. First post in a game. Not expected to come out like Sherlock Holmes. No read.

Hey. Looking forward to playing with you all. Just a few random questions I like to throw out so we can all get to know each other like special friends
1) Have you played mafia games before? (on this site, other sites, or in real life)
2) Where are you from?
3) Why the profile name?
4) Do you believe anyone caught lying should be lynched?

Wassup man.
1) I played this game several times. I'm the top player in my school in real-life (no, he's kidding).
2) I'm Korean, who lived in Korea for about 3 years of my 18 years of life. Currently inhabiting a small place in NZ.
3) I...dammit! Parknourie the name my father calls me.
4)It really depends on the situation. But I would like to hear more about your answer. A simple "No". Why?

Being friendly, nothing to get excited about. Perhaps too friendly after reading the first quote? Nah. Still far too early in the game to point a finger for something so minute.

LOL!
It turns out that I was the one who didn't read the rules properly! Oh save me from the shame!
Well, that means I can yet throw a new random vote on yet another person!

@@Vote: SomeRandomGuy

He is a criminal mastermind who plans to thwart the town's early stage of scumhunting!

Thor, I sincerely thank you for putting me and the rest of the town to the right direction just before.
However, your cocky smart-aleck attitude is distorting my upper intestines at the moment. Cut. It. Out.
I think our Lego Stormtrooper guy's questions are quite useful and fun.
I want everyone to answer them. Thor, you should answer number 2&3 as well as you did on 1&4.
Who knows? The statistics might show that people who live in France has 99% chance of being scum?

"Straightening up", getting a little forward with Thor, who was a bit forward himself. Still quite comical and being a bit on the friendly "hey look, I'm not a threat" side. WIFOM.

Great. Now I have an IC on my ass.
Thor hasn't seen everyone's post yet (since they actually didn't post anything) and goes for one of the two SEs in this game which is me.

Random voting stage is over? I didn't know that. Do you run this show Thor? It is very discomforting (as I have siad before) to see you treating yourself as the top-and-the-best player in this game.

So it is page 2. I have posted...what, like 5 posts? And you confirm that I'm THE scum in this game. Very, very interesting.
It is common, I know, that one of the more-experienced players would be scum and one of the newbies will be their partner. However, you haven't seen everybody yet and therefore your firm confirmation on me being scum is definitely baloony.
However, it is wrong for anyone to say that I have you as my scum candidate.
ICs are the ones who get commonly linked with a newbie as their scum-partners. But your action right now (perhaps ONLY right now) seems to be out of frustration.
Of what reason? Of you NOT being scum. That is why, I think, you are trying to frame me right now. I'm SE who has the next biggest possiblity of being scum partner-cum-helper to a Newbie.
However, that is wrong, man. Acting purely on chances at the moment and not using your tried-and-tested skill on deduction is very unadvisable action for newbies.
Sigh, take your time, since not all of us has done much in this game yet, and be sensible with your decisions.

Okay, okay. Maybe he finally did straighten up. Cool. This is when I started paying more attention to his wordplay. We get the opinion, no need to be patronizing about it.

Being scum is obviously more fun than being townie. Especially if you are experienced and in a Newbie game.

Your early i-dont-give-a-shit attitude (hence placing me as your victim) is overtaking you, Thor.

Hello, early red flag. I've played a small amount of games and, yes, playing scum can at times be more fun since you have a slightly better grasp at what's going on, but the way the second sentence is worded in conjunction with the first just irks me.

So, you're settling on calling me scum?
And what is my attitude overtaking? My previously town attitude?

i didnt say that. You are definitely town-read on me. However, the attitude is quite disgusting.
Greetings Andrew. Gimme 100 good reasons why I should unvote on you (actually a good "one" would do).
The fact that you just got in doesnt count at all.

Obviously not trying to come off as asskissery to Thor, but still trying to get Thor off his back. Nothing too obtuse in this one.

@Huntman - The truth is that as you play the game you'll end up developing your own scum hunting style. Pretty much everyone does it differently and it really does take reading/playing games to learn what you'll start noticing as tells. The best and most basic advice is - say what you're thinking, and never get too locked down in preconceptions. If you can master that you'll already be leaps and bounds ahead of a lot of other players of this game. I actually disagree about the way you're reading Maniamax, but can see where you're coming from. The sad truth is pretty much every tell is pretty subjective and needs to be assessed on a case by case basis.

I'm still null on Mania, but if I can get a read on Guderian I'll probably have a more solid feel there.

Still think park is the strongest scummer thus far.

@mothrax - Huntman is town, get your vote off of him, please.

Rather than telling other people to do things you would do, why don't you try to convince them in a way that they can actually see and understand your purpose?
I'm not even going to argue with you anymore. Go ahead, get me out of your way. But seriously? Me, a scum?! Sure it is almost a 1/9 chance right now for anyone to be scum. However pinpointing down someone as early as right now...I have only two words to describe you: efficient and hot-headed. Maybe your Norse God afflicts your actual playstyle. You aren't going to be much of an ally to Town although you are town.
I guess enough has been going on for me to keep my vote off on Andrew now that he is fully participating in this game (however his usefulness to town still needs to be justified).
There are many pure-newbies in this game and it is quite difficult for me to determine who is scum but I have a rough idea on who is.

@@Vote: Guderian

Earlier on he got a town-read from Thor (a Powerful, manipulative, town-aligned IC) and I think that enabled him to somehow say anything, do anything without really getting on anyone's radar.
Word choices DO come as an issue around here, Guderian, as all we can see from other people's reactions are their collection of word choices.
He first goes for Thor. An IC in this game. Then he stays low until me and Thor argue about a no-big-deal called Playstyle.
Then getting on track, Guderian seems to have more than enough reasons to go for Andrew but instead he goes for me.
Now, I'm not saying that no-one should vote me if they think me suspicious, but just look at who's the other person going for me. Thor.
A newbie scum following an IC to safely go under radar and get a lynch out in earlier phase (as Thor says I'm the Scummiest person in here so far), I say this is.
p.s. High five Andrew

I don't think Torr was telling anyone what to do, but that's here nor there. Stemming off of a "Hey I still think Thor is town" push, the vote switch seems iffy to me. Even moreso after:

I believe I have already said the reasons why I think you are town before, Thor.
In case you were too blind to actually spend time reading my posts, I will say it again.
You are an IC. Inexperience Challenged. Get that, rockhead?
My reasons against you are psychological. I'm not surprised if a Norse (even though you are a God amongst them) doesnt understand psychology.
You are someone who expect the most to be a scum in Newbie games as you have the power to be a wise-town AND an awesome scum partner.
Even if an IC is NOT a scum, there is a great chance of other SEs in the game of being one. Don't be so naive about this point. Newbies are newbies. Sure they can be clever but seriously?
They need someone experienced to go alongside with them and someone with power is very much ideal.
Judging from your all annoyed, amped-down behaviors and playing with calculations, I drew the conclusion that you are actually in the stage of sheer frustration. Of NOT BEING SCUM.

Otherwise, you would have gone, "Alright! Let's do this shit!' with super hyped-up attitude.

But you are settling your score with me. And here goes our problem.
"Fucking hell. I'm not scum. No chance of wasting these infantile minions...Who can I pick on? Huh, a guy called Parknourie. Let's see what I can cook up with this guy!" Is probably what you went through before the situation we are in right now.
Very, very, annoying. Another proof that you are annoyed is your treatment to other players in this game.
Using your status as an IC you just command them, order them, find their mistakes, get easily annoyed by thier actions. What an IC you are.
Now, I'm not wasting my useful vote on you Thor. Just try and lynch me. The entire Town will have to pay for your utter stupidity. Not that the entire town is stupid enough to go for me all at once.
This Town's too small for me and you both. That's a Fact.

Kind of LOLd when I read that. Isn't that what you did, park? And you're contradicting your own opinion and claiming to have overlooked it? For someone claiming to be into the psychological, you're not thinking about it enough.

I'll confirm my parknourie suspicions now. Definitely the most scummy player here thus far.

^This is how I feel about parknourie.

@@Vote: parknourie

[parknourie]

I'm going on V/LA I have to study English exam for 2 days. If I'm lucky I'll come back as soon as I can.
Interesting to see ChkFlip just come into the game and by Thor's suggestion only looks at my posts and thus throw a vote on me.
He had a bunch of things to say about my playstyle, however I see them all as very weak points.
Somehow I sense scum from him and his mimickry of Mothrax is quite disturbing.

Noted. (: ~ Kitty

[Huntman800]

... and that put's us back at L2 (correct?). Anyway, time for me to post more on Gude:

First,

@Andrew:

Where did he rolefish? And ummm, well this is kinda embarrassing, but what exactly is rolefishing and how does it make for a scum tell?
Second,

@Thor:

I agree with Gude, we need more concrete evidence from you on his scum case, I'm looking forward to see what you have to say in your next post. Try and include more examples of him trailing your moves and (if applicable) explanations of the scuminess of each action.
Finally, and most importantly

@Guderian:

I'm not at all ready to point my finger at you, however you're becoming a little more scummy with each post, so I got a handful of questions:
1.) What reverse your read on Park? And why was it so drastic as to put him so far away from scumminess?
2.) You say your reasons for Mania being scum have already been stated, though all I could find was: He wasn't trying hard to find scum. Forgive me if I didn't read your posts thoroughly enough, but it seems odd for you to push Park to the back and pull Mania to the front of your list of suspicions for only one reason... Once again, if you've said anything else about Mania, please tell.
3.) So, you're against Mothrax for the same reason as above, and because you don't like him? How can you get bad vibes without getting good insight? Is it at all possible that Mothrax simply hasn't provided you with enough information because he hasn't been on enough (Haven't ISOed him...)
4.) As for Thor, you're against him because he is suspicious towards you AND a SINGLE other post? Any

good

reasons?
5.) So, it in all it seems that your list is filled with uncertainty, through this game you have yet to provide sufficient reasons to go against any player on that list... Besides Park. Yet, he did something to completely change your reasoning?
All right, I may have lied. Unless you can come up with answers to these questions, you are looking a little scummy right now. Plus, as I typed this I realized something more:

The negative read I'm getting from you (Guderian) is based solely off of your sudden change in attitude towards Park. And, considering you did not see Thor's unvote, you unvoted Park when he was at L1. So I guess I lied a little more than I thought when I said you weren't scummy. Suddenly, when Park is in danger of a Hammer you remove your vote.

My Most Wanted

1.) Park -- I can't let all my suspicions towards you go, not yet
2.) I didn't want to say this but: Guderian -- Typing this post changed my views, as it pointed out some odd bits. Please though,

if anyone has a reason why my ideas are null, speak up

If this list looks scummy then forgive me, but you'll have to specifically ask me to give reasons as to why everyone else is either null or town. (Who knows, maybe typing that post will get my thoughts together more as well)

[ooBAZZoo]

As Park has already mentioned, its extremely weird that Chkflip would come straight into the game and, without mention of a single other player, vote Park just in response to Thor asking him for his read on him.

@Chkflip -
1) Why the certainty of a vote in your first proper post?
2) On your read through the thread, who else stood out as scum? (as a general feel, or for a specific scummy looking act?)
3) Who is your most town read?

@Mothrax - What's your read of Guderian? (a reasonably explanation, and a percentage of how scummy you find him would be nice, thanks)

I'm getting further with some reads, but not quite far enough to vote yet. My lack of voting has been mentioned, and it seems that a few people don't like it. What I'll say in response is that I'm pretty conservative with my vote. You'll notice that in the game I just finished, I made it through the whole game and only voted once. Maybe some of you feel this is annoying because it slows down town's progress, but I don't feel that way. I'm more than willing to contribute my opinions about players, and my input into cases as they form. However, I'd rather reserve my vote for someone I actually want to see lynched.

[chkflip]

I'm a very straight forward player, I don't do random votes or very much like wasting posts. I've normally played in larger games and have come to realize that if you're wasting time, you're a waste for town.

@ooBAZZoo
1] It's just the way that he was talking, the way that he is playing in general, among the pinpoints I said in my previous post.
2] Well, tbh, I found the way Guderian was playing to be a bit questionable. No solid reasons or other leads.
3] I like me some Hunman800.

[Guderian]

hello again all.

welcome chkflip.

my previous post was short on purpose because of lack of time, I realize it doesn't address much.

good discussions being generated. The cases on me are well thought out, look forward to rebutting them.

@ anyone who said i removed my vote to avoid hammering park, with chkflips vote and thor ready to revote him, all it needs is one more person (andrew huntman or anyone else who views him as scummy) to hammer him.

thus, you can vote him now without my vote on him. if you think he is scum, you can vote him off (which i dont).

wish i could post more.

take care for now

[andrew94]

parknourie, I believe I have outlined my reasons for voting you before.

1. Apparent wishy-washyness,
2. strange reasoning while pertaining to Thor (ie claiming he decided to vote you because he was IC and you were a lowly SE),
3. followed by the fact that the town will be 'awfully sorry' to lynch you (

will we be?

I haven't seen any serious analysis from you to make me think otherwise)
4. voting me because I voted you. It seems like a thinly veiled attempt to make me appear like a band wagoning opportunistic scum, when it is really nothing of the sort.

guderian, in response the bolded is an example of subtle rolefishing.
rolefishing is scum attempting to 'fish' a power role out, like for example 'why DONT we want to lynch u' and etc.
its a scum tell because a power role coming out does not benefit the town

[andrew94]

p.s. i already explained it before, please read the thread

chkflip: you come in with a very big post, that is actually not very big: all ur saying is that park is stupid and playing style is weird, is anti town etc


anti town =/= scum
also, u come in to a game, with no suspisions on ur back becos u just replaced in, and immediately jump on parknourie with the exclusion of everyone else.
i find that scummy as hell, u basically ignored everyone else, and u make no attempt to find other ppl scummy. you earn 2nd place in my book.

p.s. ur asskissing thor by immediately doing what thor asked u to do

[KittyMo]

Vote Count X

[L-2] parknourie - (Maniamax, mothrax, chkflip)

[L-4] mothrax - (parknourie)
[L-4] Guderian - (andrew94)
[L-4] Maniamax - (Guderian)

[3]

Not Voting

- (Hutman800, ooBAZZoo, Thor665)

With

9

alive, it's

5

to lynch!

Deadline is at Wednesday, November 24, 2010 at 4:30:00 PM (Los Angeles time).

[andrew94]

chkflip, are u voting park because of his playstyle or do u find him scummy

if its the first, u have shit playstyle to, if its the latter, point them out