Mafia 119: MURDER AT HOTEL DEATH(GAME OVER)

[curiouskarmadog]

sidenote: it is stupid and anti-town to jail a town vig to protect him. It is not pro-town for a vig to shoot, but it is pro-town to prevent him from shooting?

who said they jailed you to protect you?

[lewarcher82]

vollkan did:

EBWOP:

Our Neighbourhood is the Alcatraz Neighbourhood

And the asterisks in my previous post are a typo left over from when I first typed out the history I had the explanations for each kill at the bottom:
ie.
LMP JKed me*
LMP JKed me*
LMP JKed Lewarcher*
LMP JKed pacman***


(* protective basis)
(*** scumhunting basis)

But then I decided just to simplify it with the two sentences at the end of my post.

[LimMePls]

We jailed lew because we thought there was a good chance scum would kill the vig that night, and since lew was just replacing into the slot, we weren't sure if he'd even be able to make a very informed shot, so we figured losing the shot wasn't as bad. I really wish I could go back and change that decision, it was terrible in hindsight. This is one of those difficult decisions I was alluding to earlier about how our JK's not stopping a kill isn't as damning as ckd suggests. A doc could just protect lew without consequences, for us it was a gamble.

If there is a night that makes one of us (vollkan and me) more likely to be scum, it is that night. The fact that we JK'ed a vig and the scum killed the tracker instead, is pretty bad. I'd think they'd fear a vig much more than a tracker, so the tracker dying instead is curious. Does anyone disagree with this?

I plan on starting a reread soon, but I dunno if it'll start this weekend or not.

[curiouskarmadog]

lew can you do we a favor, what post number did you enter the game?

[curiouskarmadog]

nm, there are links.

[curiouskarmadog]

another reason I dont think pac is scum, vollkan and LMP came out Day (whatever) and both voted PD...PD started pushing pac.

another reason I think rude is scum, jack was pushing him as his number one suspect yesterday (now he is dead)..though I guess it should be noted, that he also said I was scum....

[a2rudeboy]

CKD- I was pushing a Jack lynch hardcore from day one, even after most people considered him town. If I was scum, wouldn't I have foregone the lynch when there were better/ easier candidates and just NK?

(Yes, the above is WIFOM, yes, I still think it makes a point)

[curiouskarmadog]

easier and better canididates?..like who?....and maybe you (and your partner?) kill jacked because he was soft claiming something you felt might threaten you..

the above post makes we secure in the vote.

@ ALL, where do you stand on the A2 lynch.....I want firm stances and reasons!

[curiouskarmadog]

lol, fuck!!!

"killed jack"

This made me lol for some reason.

[curiouskarmadog]

also A2, I would like a scum/town ranking from you now....why is your top two scummy, why is your bottom two townish.

[a2rudeboy]

Scum to town:

LMP
CKD
Volk (strict middle, can get no read)
Pac/Warcher

[vollkan]

it is interesting, vollkan. I had shot a2 back on n3. I had no idea why it didn't work, you let me speculate about town/maf docs roleblockers for 6 pages, and finally it turns out that I was jailed by you. And now you contemplate the option of us being scumpartners?

I didn't say I thought it was likely that you were scum with him, but it was necessary to raise it in the context of my previous post addressing the question "Why might Lew not kill as scum?"

I did not shoot because I did not want to put town on 3:2 lylo. Already explained that.

And I've already proven that that makes no sense.

To simplify my argument to its bare bones:

In 4:2 MYLO we have two options: No Lynch or Lynch Scum. The former gives scum a free kill and puts us in LYLO. The latter, having to lynch scum, is indistinguishable from what we'd have to do in LYLO - except that because you didn't kill we are deprived of one flip that we otherwise would have in LYLO.

My qualm at this stage is basically whether I think you are a smart enough player to realise the above (and possibly also the fact that No LYnch really isn't an option for us, given the possbiility of you being scum), or whether you really would just play simplistically and think "LYLO is bad. Therefore I won't kill".

one last bit...vollkan is an awesome player...as scum, he has bested me 2-3 times...I just cant read him....if I were mafia (and I have seen this occured 1 maybe two times) I would have offed vollkan a long time ago....however he is still around...(thus the has anyone played with vollkan before" question.)..again doesnt mean jack in this game because no one is admitting to it.

Three points:
1) Look at the list of recent games above and the ones on my wiki (I list the night/day I died for most of them). It's not at all anomalous for me to survive.
2) As you say, nobody here barring yourself has played with me before
3) There has been a multitude of claimed power roles this game. Scum typically will kill for roles rather than players.

If there is a night that makes one of us (vollkan and me) more likely to be scum, it is that night. The fact that we JK'ed a vig and the scum killed the tracker instead, is pretty bad. I'd think they'd fear a vig much more than a tracker, so the tracker dying instead is curious. Does anyone disagree with this?

I'd normally agree, but then we have to explain the kill of Jack last night. There was no suggestion that Jack had a power of any sort, making him an even less likely death than silver. So I'm not sure what is going on.

CKD- I was pushing a Jack lynch hardcore from day one, even after most people considered him town. If I was scum, wouldn't I have foregone the lynch when there were better/ easier candidates and just NK?

(Yes, the above is WIFOM, yes, I still think it makes a point)

IIRC, most people didn't consider Jack town D1 or D2; and even after that it was more a lack of suspicion than anything else (ie. nothing glaringly pro-town). Pushing him hardcore has a big advantage for scum in that tunneling allows you to avoid having to juggle competing suspicions. I'm not saying that's what you did, but the point is that there is hardly no scum motivation for pushing Jack continuously during the day.

@ ALL, where do you stand on the A2 lynch.....I want firm stances and reasons!

Points-wise, he isn't my first choice; that would be Pacman but there are two reasons why I am averse to a pacman lynch:
1) The tracker and JK results
2) My points on Pacman come from vezok. I'm pretty sure I knew vezok was a VI when I gave him those points, but I can't be sure, and, in any event, I'm not sure whether I knew vezok was as hopelessly bad as he actually is when I gave those points. In short, my read on pacman is kind of iffy.

lol, fuck!!!

"killed jack"

What?

[LimMePls]

Scum to town:

LMP
CKD
Volk (strict middle, can get no read)
Pac/Warcher

You have no read on Vollkan 5 days into the game?

Unvote
Vote: a2rude

This is too easy.

[vollkan]

Scum to town:

LMP
CKD
Volk (strict middle, can get no read)
Pac/Warcher

You have no read on Vollkan 5 days into the game?

Unvote
Vote: a2rude

This is too easy.

CKD has also said that he can't read me, and I'm fairly often told that I am unreadable. I fail to see what is scummy about a2 saying he can't read me, let alone to the extent that could possibly justify a LYLO/MYLO vote.

LMP+3

[LimMePls]

So, I've been wondering, can anyone see some way to use our abilities to guarantee us a win? We have a vig and a JK at our disposal, maybe we can find a way to use them in such a combination that scum can't win? I've been trying to come up with some scenarios, but I haven't found one yet. Figured someone else might see something I'm not?

[LimMePls]

You're going out of your way to sling me those scum points Vollkan. That's fascinating.

[LimMePls]

Unvote

[LimMePls]

1. Lynch a2

If a2 flips scum:

2. LMP JK Vollkan
3. Lew vig LMP

This would leave us at (assuming NK on lew) {CKD, Pacman, Vollkan}, but a cleared Vollkan, since he was JK'ed and there was no kill. Cleared Vollkan then has to pick between Pacman and CKD. If there is no kill {lew, CKD, Pacman, Vollkan} Lynch Vollkan, and if the game is still going, then Lew has to shoot at best choice of CKD/Pacman.

The problem is that if a2 did flip town, the resulting mess is pretty ugly.

[LimMePls]

Scum to town:

LMP
CKD
Volk (strict middle, can get no read)
Pac/Warcher

You have no read on Vollkan 5 days into the game?

Unvote
Vote: a2rude

This is too easy.

CKD has also said that he can't read me, and I'm fairly often told that I am unreadable. I fail to see what is scummy about a2 saying he can't read me, let alone to the extent that could possibly justify a LYLO/MYLO vote.

LMP+3

You really think there is nothing scummy about having a null read on someone on D5? Is there anyone in the game you have a null read on?

[vollkan]

You're going out of your way to sling me those scum points Vollkan. That's fascinating.

The two instances of points I have given you are to scale:
+2 points for WIFOM defence.
+3 points for poor late-game vote.

I can't see why either of those is excessive

Unvote

Why did you unvote here?

Especially given that in your very next post you strategised for a2's lynch.

You really think there is nothing scummy about having a null read on someone on D5? Is there anyone in the game you have a null read on?

A null read really just means that you don't see scumtells or towntells, which is perfectly legitimate. Even disregarding the fact that I am generally hard to read, I'd also point out that so far I don't think anybody has adopted a read of me. If they have, please quote the post (Pacman doesn't count, for reasons that should be obvious)

I have null reads on CKD and lew. Both are at 50 points. Lew would be higher but for the fact that, as I mentioned earlier, I can't decide if he would be the type to analyse the game and kill or to look at things simplistically and No Kill, as he claims (though, understandably, he isn't describing himself as 'simplistic' )

[evilpacman18]

unvote, vote: vollkan

Hop on, LMP

[vollkan]

[RedCoyote]

Vote Count

evilpacman18(0) -
curiouskarmadog(0) -

LynchMePls(1)

- a2rudeboy

vollkan(1)

- evilpacman18

a2rudeboy(1)

- curiouskarmadog,
lewarcher82(0) -

Not Voting(3)

- volkkan, lewarcher82, LynchMePls

With 6 alive, it is 4 to lynch

Deadline: December 5th, 2010, 1:30 AM, Central Standard Time

[LimMePls]

@Vollkan, I hear lots of stories about how you are an awesome town player. Can you point me to some original cases you made this game against scum players? Everything I see is you joining other people's cases. As for my unvote, obviously I'm not ready for a lynch to happen, and with this few players in the game, leaving votes out can be very bad.

@pacman: maybe.

@everyone else: PLEASE FREAKING HELP! GOOD LORD!

[curiouskarmadog]

vollkan is a good player as town or mafia...