Newbie 1022 - Game Over

[TheLonging]

Reading through the thread, I'm growing more and more uncomfortable with TheLonging. He had stated that he felt that Avish was town, and that Shotty was scum. Ok, others felt that Avish was town before her flip. I didn't see it, and still don't. She played a very scummy game, and it's unfortunate. Hopefully she takes this game as a learning experience on how things will be percieved on this site. So I'm willing to accept that players could have, by some miracle, truly had a town read on Avish but I'm not willing to accept that TL legitimately had/has a scum read on Shotty.

You can't think one and not the other, considering I feel like shotty is still scum. HOWEVER, there is something with LC's death that makes me consider other suspects first.

That's like saying someone has a scum read on DavidParker.

False logic.

Shotty has simply not played this game enough to give you a scum read.

Yes he has

Let's face the facts here, Shotty was L-1 on the second page in this game. Why would a player that already plays terribly, and lurks a lot, really care about a game that it looks like they are not only going to get lynched, but rather quickly?

It's called a VIscum trying to defend his ass.

It's his own fault for being in that position in the first place, but I could definitely see why he wouldn't care about this game. He's literally laughed at his lynch this entire game, and I'm struggling to see how that reflects on his alignment.

Because he's not playing the game and because he hasn't suspected anyone, made weak votes, and has done nothing to defend himself or get involved, this is not only VI play, but also SCUM PLAY

In fact, one could argue that by not fighting to survive that if it was an alignment tell, at all, it would have to be town.

OK, I'll just ask you to do this every single game, if you don't do this, you're scum. Oops, sorry to set you up to a double standard that'll be impossible to follow.

To me the entire "I think shotty actually is scum" bit was a ploy to gain townie points for not lynching Avish, while pushing for a rather easy lynch on Shotty. From a scum standpoint, that situation is win/win. If Shotty is town then he has a lynch that he can dismiss as PL even if he flips scum. If he is scum then he just royally bussed his partner gaining him an obscene amount of townie points as well.

This makes NO goddamn sense at all, so explain more clearly please?

The most damning thing about TL is how he instantly voted for Shotty in this phase, and immediately changed his mind. He votes, then immediately has a change of heart and states he has to think about it? I thought that Shotty wasn't a PL and that TL actually thought he was scum? What's there to think about? If you think someone is scum, why not vote for him?

Because there is other scum that's bigger to fry. Also I think you need to consider who would do that. I do think he's scum, not AS much scum. I just want to get the other scum.

I wanted to lynch him for both but look, I'm starting to doubt shotty is scum, mainly because I have another rising suspicion with LC's death.

He's doubting Shotty is scum because he has another rising suspicion? Why does one suspicion all of a sudden make Shotty town? There's two scum in the game. From what he's saying here, he can only really have one suspect at a time.

Because this person would be someone no one is expecting to be scum (as far as I have read so far), and could wreck the town, hence why I am more suspicious of this guy, ESPECIALLY with LC's death.

Ah, DP. Long time no play with. Hope you can post content to make me think Eggy's slot isn't scum or VI.

Why would it matter if you thought his slot was a VI?

Because Eggy wasn't a good player at all. He was a VItown, but it wasn't good. That's why it matters.

Anyway, TL has posted a lot of IIoA in this game as well.

What is IIoA?

He's stated, plainly, that he feels certain ways but he's never really posted reasoning. In fact look at what he said about Avish:

Avis is now the most pro-town player in this entire game. I mean, after I read that post, I reread the thread. In fact, everything he's saying actually makes very good sense. This also leads me to believe that VV and shotty could be scum. However, shotty should be lynched first. At best he's scum, at worst he's a detriment to town, and he already CLAIMED townie.

We're supposed to believe that Avish's scummy plays made you believe she was town

It wasn't scummy though. It was only the people who made a piss poor case on her that made her SEEM scummy

, and that you reread the thread to find that everything she was saying made perfect sense? (He was so moved my Avish's words of townish godliness, that he didn't even realize Avish isn't a guy.)

Yup!

He felt so strongly about that, that he never a single time defended Avish. He pushed for a Shotty lynch, but he didn't defend Avish at all. Why wouldn't you defend your biggest town-read? Look closely at what TL was doing. He was using Avish to push for a Shotty lynch, nothing more. He didn't seem to care that his biggest town read was being lynched, he just used her to push for the lynch on Shotty.

You think I'm not upset about a doctor lynch and Avish being dead? I'm surprised that she's dead actually.

He went out of his way to try and say that a Shotty lynch was better, never did he make an effort to show why an Avish lynch was bad. If you believe someone is town, why wouldn't you make a case for that player being town?

Also look at the last sentence of that quote. He was using the "he's claimed townie!" reason for justifying the lynch.

Not at all, you kind of forgot to read the rest of my posts where I stated reasoning. Hmm, you just focus on that ONE quote? Out of all the other reasoning I have posted?

He was the one that requested the claim so early.

Avish's "vote" was technically L-1

He could just as easily asked for the claim, solely to push for the lynch all claimed townie policy.

See last 2 bolded

How, the hell, is he going to use Shotty's claim against him, when he was the one that requested it in the first place.

See last 3 bolded

I'm going to hold off on voting until I look more players over, but something is seriously off with how TL's playing.

"I think this guy is SCUM SCUM SCUM but I'm not voting him yet because I think there are much more important fish and I'm afraid to vote him because OH MY GOD HE MIGHT BE LYNCHED AND IT'LL LOOK BAD"

DP looks like way opportunistic DP scum to me... just saying.

How does he look opportunistic? He's admittedly only read the last few pages, so he's basing his opinion strictly on that. With that being said, why wouldn't opportunistic scum focus on me at this point? Lets face it, with Avish actually flipping Doc I'd probably be the easiest to mislynch at this phase.

You're correct actually, you are the easiest to mislynch. Hey, remember when I was talking about people who might be scum? I was referring to you.

vote: leech

[Kingcheese]

Still haven't done a reread recently, but based on recent posts the scum team is kingcheese+Leech... The wifomy "ic not dying means hes scum" card settles it.

I would suggest you actually do make a re read before making such rash assumptions. You have based your entire "argument," if you could call it that, is based on the last post by Leech and and Id guess 1 and a half pages.

I look forward to your "informed" post DP. I also see shotty as posted something else without answering my question. I continue to wait.

[VasudeVa]

First some questions:
@AV: I found your end of D1 to be very weird. You went from agreeing to shotty's PL, to voting me to voting Avish. I studied your ISO during night. I have two specific parts of your ISO, that I just don't get the thought process off.

The counter-wagon on Avish feels a bit off. I have a niggling feeling about two of the three votes on there at the moment (VV's and LC's - Leech's feels like an honest vote). That said, I'm see-sawing on Avish being paranoid townie or paranoid scum. She was paranoid enough to pre-emptively defend herself, but she wasn't paranoid when I said I sympathised with her (i.e. she didn't ask for a link to the appropriate game). Similarly, she is paranoid enough to ask how many newbie games we'd played, but not paranoid enough to ask for links to these games. I think she's an interesting counter, but I'm unsettled by it atm.

And to this:

I don't think that looks like a bus. If it has terrible reasoning, I can accept that it could be scum opportunistically hopping on a mislynch wagon, but when there was the perfect counter-wagon (Shotty) it makes no sense to vote for Avish. I also wholeheartedly disagree with your desires for a speedlynch, and I dislike the premise of setting up subsequent lynches in general. I'm struggling to see the scum motivation for this particular setup though (i.e. scum would generally say "If X flips town, we should lynch Y"), so you've just about evaded gaining my vote for setting up lynches.

Buuuuut you've gained it for something else. You said that you were see-sawing between TL and LC being scum #2. But now you're ultra confident it's LC, so confident that you'd speedlynch him. Inconsistency much? You didn't even explain why this is.

Vote: Vas

It does look like a bus, fo srs.

He's opening up avenues on voting Avish in case push comes to shove...at the same time indirectly defending her. That's very bus-like, really.

I like to threaten speedlynches. Especially on obvscum, obvbussers(see reply to LC below).

Where have I contradicted myself on my LC #2?

I did say that TL and LC are gunning for the scummy silver medal olympics

.

The problem is: You were all over the place in your #ISO 24, but until your vote post to Avish you barely even mentioned her(Maybe once or twice.). There were too few updates on what you thought of her. However, instead of revoting shotty to his PL by deadline, you chose to go after Avish instead.

I'd like an explanation of your thought process here please. (And also please answer the bolded in the second quote)

Also: Thoughts on the following players please? TL, KC and Leech

---

DavidParker is pinging mah town sensors. I just don't see players replacing into inactive scumslots openly attacking an unpopular player on his first post.

I like most of what Leech is saying in his #298. I agree with his theory that an experienced player is scum however, I am a bit wary that he may be projecting since, V/LA aside, his vote on Avish was kind of a 180. He went from sub-ICing Avish to suspecting here. I'm not comfortable with the blank spot of the V/LA not explaining his thought process. TL's defense is just bad though. >.>.

Will decide on my vote soon. I do know DavidParker ain't getting my vote though.

[Leech]

You can't think one and not the other, considering I feel like shotty is still scum. HOWEVER, there is something with LC's death that makes me consider other suspects first.

I can't? That's kind of funny, considering I do. While Avish looked like scummy scum scum, others had said that they felt she was town. Again I still do not understand how that could be, but considering she wasn't scum, I have to accept that someone may have legitimately had a town read on a scummy player. However, it is impossible to have a scum read on a player who hasn't posted anything that would give you that read. Not every VI is scum, and not every lurker is scum either. Everything you are saying about shotty being scum is a null tell, not scum.

Because he's not playing the game and because he hasn't suspected anyone, made weak votes, and has done nothing to defend himself or get involved, this is not only VI play, but also SCUM PLAY

Considering he plays that way EVERY game, it's completely null. It's completely ridiculous that you're using the same exact reasons for him being scum, as you were for justifying your PL on him earlier. Everything you described Shotty does in every game. You obviously knew this in the first phase, why are you forgetting it now?

Because Eggy wasn't a good player at all. He was a VItown, but it wasn't good. That's why it matters.

Really, he's VItown? He's been just as involved in this game as Shotty, yet he's town whereas Shotty's scum? When you crucify one player for acting one way, and ignore another for the same thing, it shows you have other motives for your selective targeting.

Not at all, you kind of forgot to read the rest of my posts where I stated reasoning. Hmm, you just focus on that ONE quote? Out of all the other reasoning I have posted?

They all boil down to the same thing "See, this is how he's playing the game!" "This is why we should lynch you!" each and everyone being a complete null tell. The only justifiable reason is the lynch all claimed townie, and you're the one that requested that he claim. I don't give two shits that he was L-1 when you asked either. You know full well that you don't request a claim until someone has shown interest in hammering. So, considering that was the only valid reason (how valid considering the circumstances is debatable), naturally I'm going to comment on it. Your only valid case isn't even that solid considering you shouldn't have asked for that claim in the first place.

"I think this guy is SCUM SCUM SCUM but I'm not voting him yet because I think there are much more important fish and I'm afraid to vote him because OH MY GOD HE MIGHT BE LYNCHED AND IT'LL LOOK BAD"

That's about as blatant as a misrep can get. I had clearly stated that I hadn't finished looking at all the other players over in the game yet. I was not going to vote before taking everything into account. The fact that you're suggesting that it's scummy to think before voting is completely ridiculous.

You're correct actually, you are the easiest to mislynch.[/b] Hey, remember when I was talking about people who might be scum? I was referring to you.

vote: leech

I love how you call me an easy mislynch then vote for me. If you agree that I'd be an easy MISLYNCH then why are you voting for me? Make up your mind, I can't be an easy mislynch and scum at the same time.

Still haven't done a reread recently, but based on recent posts the scum team is kingcheese+Leech... The wifomy "ic not dying means hes scum" card settles it.

I never said the IC was scum because he survived. I said the fact that none of the experienced players died, that one of them is probably scum. I don't see LC's kill choice coming from a double-newbie scum team.

I like most of what Leech is saying in his #298. I agree with his theory that an experienced player is scum however, I am a bit wary that he may be projecting since, V/LA aside, his vote on Avish was kind of a 180. He went from sub-ICing Avish to suspecting here.

My questions and comments towards Avish were always backed by my suspicions of her. There's only been a few moments where I could be accused of "Sub-IC'ing" and in either case I was trying to prevent her from guiding PR's, and explaining how her "must appear town" mindset was actually scummy. Those were both inspired by my suspicions of her. I wasn't trying to teach her anything, ever. I was trying to prevent her from hurting the town.

There's a few more people that I haven't been paying enough attention to, so I'll read up on them and probably vote shortly.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Official Vote Count

Leech - 1 (TheLonging)

Not Voting - 6 (AurorusVox, DavidParker, drmyshottyizsik, Kingcheese, Leech, VasudeVa)

4 to Lynch.

Click for Deadline

[TheLonging]

A)

I can't? That's kind of funny, considering I do. While Avish looked like scummy scum scum, others had said that they felt she was town. Again I still do not understand how that could be, but considering she wasn't scum, I have to accept that someone may have legitimately had a town read on a scummy player. However, it is impossible to have a scum read on a player who hasn't posted anything that would give you that read. Not every VI is scum, and not every lurker is scum either. Everything you are saying about shotty being scum is a null tell, not scum.

B)

Considering he plays that way EVERY game, it's completely null. It's completely ridiculous that you're using the same exact reasons for him being scum, as you were for justifying your PL on him earlier. Everything you described Shotty does in every game. You obviously knew this in the first phase, why are you forgetting it now?

C)

Really, he's VItown? He's been just as involved in this game as Shotty, yet he's town whereas Shotty's scum? When you crucify one player for acting one way, and ignore another for the same thing, it shows you have other motives for your selective targeting.

D

They all boil down to the same thing "See, this is how he's playing the game!" "This is why we should lynch you!" each and everyone being a complete null tell. The only justifiable reason is the lynch all claimed townie, and you're the one that requested that he claim. I don't give two shits that he was L-1 when you asked either. You know full well that you don't request a claim until someone has shown interest in hammering. So, considering that was the only valid reason (how valid considering the circumstances is debatable), naturally I'm going to comment on it. Your only valid case isn't even that solid considering you shouldn't have asked for that claim in the first place.

E

That's about as blatant as a misrep can get. I had clearly stated that I hadn't finished looking at all the other players over in the game yet. I was not going to vote before taking everything into account. The fact that you're suggesting that it's scummy to think before voting is completely ridiculous.

F

I love how you call me an easy mislynch then vote for me. If you agree that I'd be an easy MISLYNCH then why are you voting for me? Make up your mind, I can't be an easy mislynch and scum at the same time..

A) So you're only going to excuse him as scum SOLELY because he's shotty? That doesn't work for every game, and I do know the difference between a SCUM VI and a TOWN VI.

B) See above.

C) Eggy has 14 posts. Shotty has 43. ?????

D) Every time a post has reasoning to actually lynch someone you can use that excuse. Also it IS scummy, again, you are using his past history as a VI to excuse him! Why?! I don't care, where I come from, L-1 is where you ask from a claim, since people can hammer out of no where, so no, I do not give a shit if no one expressed to hammer.

E) What was the harm in voting me and looking? Any harm? At all?

F) Mislynch is thrown around too liberally these days, a mistake on my part. You are scum.

[drmyshottyizsik]

vote king cheese

[Kingcheese]

vote king cheese

I have still yet to see any reasoning. I am still waiting.

And the same goes for you as well DP. Have you finished your readthrough? Do you have an informed assumption on who is scum?

[AurorusVox]

Really sorry guys I'm

V/LA til Monday

Will attempt to get read on LCdeath and respond to Vas' fishy reaction and give opinions of stated players when I can get enough time to post properly. I have like five minutes now, so I'll see how far through LC I can get...

[Leech]

A) So you're only going to excuse him as scum SOLELY because he's shotty? That doesn't work for every game, and I do know the difference between a SCUM VI and a TOWN VI.

B) See above.

C) Eggy has 14 posts. Shotty has 43. ?????

D) Every time a post has reasoning to actually lynch someone you can use that excuse. Also it IS scummy, again, you are using his past history as a VI to excuse him! Why?! I don't care, where I come from, L-1 is where you ask from a claim, since people can hammer out of no where, so no, I do not give a shit if no one expressed to hammer.

E) What was the harm in voting me and looking? Any harm? At all?

F) Mislynch is thrown around too liberally these days, a mistake on my part. You are scum.

A) No, I'm saying your points against him are null. I'd love to hear how you know the difference betwen "scum VI" (Considering VI is a term for stupid and/or reckless TOWN, you're really stretching here) and town VI. A VI is a town player that looks extremely scummy due to their playstyle, or lack of experience. You can say all you want that you know the difference, and I still maintain that Shotty has done absolutely nothing that reflects on his alignment. Condsidering he ALWAYS playes this way, you cannot call it a scum tell. It is simply impossible to tell the difference between "scum VI" and Town VI, when he plays exactly the same in either alignment.

C) Congratulations, you can look at an ISO and read the post number. While Shotty has made more posts, what they have actually added to this game are on par with eachother. Just because he has more posts doesn't mean he's been more involved.

D) It's amusing how you're back pedaling. You even admitted earlier that you asked him to claim prematurely. Keep changing your tune. Also, I keep saying that you were saying he was scum for the same reasons you condoned a POLICY LYNCH on him previously. You were trying to claim that your NULL tells are scum tells. This isn't excusing him for his previous games. If it's null, it's null. You cannot say that a person is scummy when they are playing the same exact way as they have as town on numerous occassions. This isn't anything out of the ordinary for him. Your reasons are null, end of story.

E) Nope, there wouldn't have been any harm in it. There wouldn't have been any benefit in it either. I vote when I chose to, thanks.

F) What does that even mean? A mislynch is a lynch on town. How, exactly, is it thrown around "too liberally"? Horrid explaination of your potential scum slip. Funny, but horrid.

You are an interesting read, TL. However, after reading over the thread a few times, I need to see where this hunch takes me.

Vote: DavidParker

[TheLonging]

A) No, VI just means they are dumb. They can be dumb scum and dumb town.

B) Yes I can, Egg hasn't contributed at all.

C) Yes I admitted I asked him prematurely, so what are you saying that I didn't say? Fine them, show me where he could be scum, or how, or what games, etc.

D) Exactly my point, hence the quote.

E) I threw it around too liberally. Is what I meant to say.

[TheLonging]

is anyone here?

[Kingcheese]

I'm Here.

Just waiting for DP's and Shotty's reasoning for their suspicion towards me. If they have any.

[VasudeVa]

I'm waiting on AV's reply.

@Leech: What's up with the DavidParker vote?

[AurorusVox]

I wasn't. I am now. A cornucopia of responses is inbound.

[AurorusVox]

Contents

-LC ISO NK Analysis
-Leech vs TL
-KingCheese in response to Vas
-Further response to Vas
-Appendix

---

LC ISO NK Acronym Notes:

Pushes Eggy. Don't think it's enough to make Eggy want to target him on his own.
Threatens to lynch Shotty before LYLO (i.e. today). Could be at attempt to forestall a Shotty lynch?
Likes Leech: unless Leech is WIFOMing, I'm sticking by my townread
Disagrees with Vas - not as openly as me. Maybe a less obvious NK target for Vas? Vas finds him very suspicious - but this was wrapped in an Avish scumflip. Maybe a way to wriggle out of the

inconsistencies

I noticed yesterday! (more later)
TheLonging also found LC suspicious, but LC didn't seem to find TL suspicious. I think its doubtful TL on his own would choose to kill off his "second suspect" since LC didn't really have a case on TL.

---

Leech/TL shenanigans

This looks too fierce to be a fabricated distancing/bussing argument (though the DP vote is a little odd). Other than that, I think Leech is coming off far better. A lot of what he's pointing out are my cup of tea when it comes to scumtells - the backtracking/contradictions/hypocrisy elements especially. In fact, this is golden. How has no one already picked up on this epic hypocrisy?

HOWEVER, there is something with LC's death that makes me consider other suspects first.

Because there is other scum that's bigger to fry. Also I think you need to consider who would do that. I do think he's scum, not AS much scum. I just want to get the other scum.

In the SAME post:

I'm going to hold off on voting until I look more players over, but something is seriously off with how TL's playing.

"I think this guy is SCUM SCUM SCUM but I'm not voting him yet because I think there are much more important fish and I'm afraid to vote him because OH MY GOD HE MIGHT BE LYNCHED AND IT'LL LOOK BAD"

At this time, TL had unvoted Shotty because he had other suspects to find. Do as I say, not as I do? Scum.

Vote: TheLonging

---

Kingcheese

I didn't mind his early D1 play. It got screwy towards the end - discussing PRs and that horrible assumption wherein he treated Shotty as a mislynch, despite wanting to lynch him anyway. This is further consolidated by his #290 where he says the time for PLing Shotty has passed. This screams that he knows Shotty is a townie, and was never committed to the idea of ScumShotty in the first place. In fact, KC's play as regards Shotty makes me surer that Shotty is a legit townie (this is based on a KC scumflip). Oh, and now I've seen that he doesn't find Shotty scummy but scumpairs him with DP? If he's a scumpair and you honestly believe it, why would you care about PLing or not? You'd just want to lynch your scumread. He's my #3 suspect.

---

Vas' Unconvincing Argument

@AV: I found your end of D1 to be very weird. You went from agreeing to shotty's PL, to voting me to voting Avish. I studied your ISO during night. I have two specific parts of your ISO, that I just don't get the thought process off.

Before I get to answering your questions: what's up with preparing your attack during the night? Certain you weren't going to die? Your vote on Avish yesterday was pretty static - why didn't you do this studying yesterday?

The counter-wagon on Avish feels a bit off. I have a niggling feeling about two of the three votes on there at the moment (VV's and LC's - Leech's feels like an honest vote). That said, I'm see-sawing on Avish being paranoid townie or paranoid scum. She was paranoid enough to pre-emptively defend herself, but she wasn't paranoid when I said I sympathised with her (i.e. she didn't ask for a link to the appropriate game). Similarly, she is paranoid enough to ask how many newbie games we'd played, but not paranoid enough to ask for links to these games. I think she's an interesting counter, but I'm unsettled by it atm.

And to this:

I don't think that looks like a bus. If it has terrible reasoning, I can accept that it could be scum opportunistically hopping on a mislynch wagon, but when there was the perfect counter-wagon (Shotty) it makes no sense to vote for Avish. I also wholeheartedly disagree with your desires for a speedlynch, and I dislike the premise of setting up subsequent lynches in general. I'm struggling to see the scum motivation for this particular setup though (i.e. scum would generally say "If X flips town, we should lynch Y"), so you've just about evaded gaining my vote for setting up lynches.

Buuuuut you've gained it for something else. You said that you were see-sawing between TL and LC being scum #2. But now you're ultra confident it's LC, so confident that you'd speedlynch him. Inconsistency much? You didn't even explain why this is.

Vote: Vas

It does look like a bus, fo srs.

He's opening up avenues on voting Avish in case push comes to shove...at the same time indirectly defending her. That's very bus-like, really.

I like to threaten speedlynches. Especially on obvscum, obvbussers(see reply to LC below).

Where have I contradicted myself on my LC #2?

I did say that TL and LC are gunning for the scummy silver medal olympics

.

The problem is: You were all over the place in your #ISO 24, but until your vote post to Avish you barely even mentioned her(Maybe once or twice.). There were too few updates on what you thought of her. However, instead of revoting shotty to his PL by deadline, you chose to go after Avish instead.

I'd like an explanation of your thought process here please. (And also please answer the bolded in the second quote)

If you "studied" my ISO last night, did you just happen to miss the part where I eventually agreed that lynching a scum suspect had a greater benefit than lynching a claimed VT? And so I voted for you due to your inconsistencies (explained again below) - and then I shifted to Avish, yep. But if you studied my ISO (studied, implying looked at with vigour and attention) you should have seen (a) me trying to get people on your wagon, (b) me still being open to a Shotty lynch but it not having the support, and (c) me doing a FULL ISO ANALYSIS of Avish close to deadline. How can you suggest its weird and opportunistic (I think this is the claim you're making) when the reasoning is there in a neat little list with reasons attached to each post that I found scummy? I was see-sawing on her because I found you suspicious - when I looked at her without you as context, she looked a good lynch. I think that neatly sums up the dilemma that I had. And are you honestly calling it suspect that I found pretty much the only person you seriously voted for all day, to be a good lynch candidate?


The inconsistency is that you initially stated that LC and TL were competing for your #2 scummy spot. But then you said that if Avish flipped scum, you would condone speedlynching LC. You dropped TL entirely out of the equation. You went from "unsure" to "certain" without explaining why or how.

With TL's slip ups today, this throws a new light onto this inconsistency - you mention TL as your 2nd suspect (not someone you'd vote for atm), and then conveniently relegate him from your scumlist. Then you can point to your "suspicion" of TL later and say "Ohay, I'm not buddies, he was my #2 suspect!" --- without ever having to follow through on building a case against him.

---

Appendix

Things I'm considering:
-TL/VV scum team looks good. One on the mislynch and one off it. Decent mix of reasons for LC NK.
-TL/KC scum team looks feasible. Newer player following the more experienced player onto the shotty lynch. Avish wagon may have needed no scumhelp with the self hammer and Shotty's unpredictability. Not really a good reason for a LC NK here.
-VV/KC scum team also looks feasible. Would probably rely on VV telling KC in pregame to not vote for the same person as him. Slightly likelier than a TL/KC scumteam for added Vas NK reasons and because there was probably scum (Vas) on the Avish wagon.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

DavidParker has been prodded.

[DavidParker]

Sorry guys, I forgot to bookmark this game. I knew I was forgetting a game when going through my list. I'll comment soon.

[TheLonging]

Leech/TL shenanigans

This looks too fierce to be a fabricated distancing/bussing argument (though the DP vote is a little odd). Other than that, I think Leech is coming off far better. A lot of what he's pointing out are my cup of tea when it comes to scumtells - the backtracking/contradictions/hypocrisy elements especially. In fact, this is golden. How has no one already picked up on this epic hypocrisy?

HOWEVER, there is something with LC's death that makes me consider other suspects first.

Because there is other scum that's bigger to fry. Also I think you need to consider who would do that. I do think he's scum, not AS much scum. I just want to get the other scum.

This isn't a contradiction

In the SAME post:

I'm going to hold off on voting until I look more players over, but something is seriously off with how TL's playing.

"I think this guy is SCUM SCUM SCUM but I'm not voting him yet because I think there are much more important fish and I'm afraid to vote him because OH MY GOD HE MIGHT BE LYNCHED AND IT'LL LOOK BAD"

At this time, TL had unvoted Shotty because he had other suspects to find. Do as I say, not as I do? Scum.

I like how you say it's a contradiction/hypocrisy yet it isn't at all. The difference is I thought shotty wasn't scum enough to make me vote him, since there were MORE scummy people than him. At the time Leech pretty much stated I was scum, or if not that, then I was very scummy. Yet his next post continues, and he... votes DavidParker. For no reason?

[DavidParker]

Umm, does anyone really want a case? Or can I just vote KingCheese who I'm pretty sure is scum.

Feel free to either agree or disagree with me, but no "retort" from KingCheese will really affect this read, and the only purpose I see to a case is to convince other people, but something tells me a case won't alter your minds, so you'll either agree or disagree with me as it is.

Vote: Kingcheese

[AurorusVox]

DP, I'd like to see a case so that we know you have one.

TL, the contradiction is between [Points 1&2] and [Point 3]. You had found someone who was scummy - yet you didn't vote them because there was "bigger scum [fish] to fry." Then you reprimand Leech for finding someone who was scummy and not voting them because there was "more important [bigger] fish." I mean, you've gone for practically the same little saying in both parts, but when it's you it's fine and excusable but when it's someone else it's suddenly a scumtell.

[TheLonging]

There's a difference between someone "I found scummy" and someone "who I have found more scummy". OK but let me explain this right now. Maybe if you read between the lines, you'll get it.

Yesterday shotty was scum. Today he's a PL. There, I admit it. Pride won't ever let me live this down, but there. shotty is a policy lynch.

[Kingcheese]

*sigh* I think this is the 5th post I've asked for an explanation as to why DP and Shotty think I'm scummy. And still no response.

I will admit that my Avish Reasons were pretty silly. But I really couldn't form an argument for Avish. As I believe Aux put it she seemed like a paranoid townie more than scum. And she didn't really help herself much. But I still stand by what I said. When she posted it seemed genuine and it seemed she couldn't combat all the pressure that was being added to her and really buried herself. Hope that made sense and clarifies things a little.

Lets see what else... Oh yes my comment about DP and Shotty.

I posted that manly because they both suddenly (with still no clarified reasons *hint Id like post analysis or something from them) began to vote me. I also posted it as a discussion topic but I guess no one else viewed it as sort of odd. At the time yesterday I was voting Shotty for PL reasons because I didn't believe Avish was scum. I still believe he is town but I'm intrigued as to why he is voting without giving any reasons except posts that I've clearly explained he's misread.

Heres a short Player Analysis I believe I can formulate for you.

Leech

: I believe he is town. His points against Avish were great. I believe I said D1 they were convincing. I am still uneasy about the way he has so far directed the flow of the game. He started the starting shotty wagon and then the Avish one. Perhaps its a good thing perhaps not, I really don't have enough experience to tell. Perhaps you could also enlighten us on why you voted DP? Or is everyone not giving reasons for their votes today?

Vox

: Pretty neutral I'd say. He makes some good posts and seems to take the side of the leading bandwagon when pressed (not really bad, just something I've noticed) with the exception of his Vas vote later on in day 1 which Im still kinda scratching my head over.

TheLonging

:I'm not to sure. I like some of the peoples cases against him and I disagree with his Leech vote. From my limited understanding of WIFOM Leech does seem to be dabbling in it. However my town read on Leech still does stand at the moment.

Shotty

: I think hes town atm but I'm questioning why he's insisting on voting me without any evidence that's not misinterpreted or misread.

DP

: Very interesting, combined with Eggy's play it will be interesting to see how the game transpires. I'm questionable about his vote towards me. Which is why I suggested Shotty and DP may be scum partners however I can't make an informed choice on their morality unless they provide actual reasons for voting me.

Vas

: Still Mister neutral. Like Vox, just seems to be following the leading wagon but yet vox and Vas are inclined to go after each other. As I said above I am still unsure what to make of these arguments atm.

And I believe that covers everyone. Hopefully I've addressed everyone's posts towards me.

And to DP I would suggest you provide your reasons for voting me so I can make an informed choice on whom (hope I used that in the right context) to vote for.

[DavidParker]

Suggesting I'm scum buddies with shotty when we are the two on your case is quite a longshot you're going for...

[VasudeVa]

Some computer problems. Expect sporadic posting till I get stuff fixed. My comp randomly BSODs and I want to post something without the fear of losing my typage, so yeah.

Leech: I believe he is town. His points against Avish were great. I believe I said D1 they were convincing. I am still uneasy about the way he has so far directed the flow of the game. He started the starting shotty wagon and then the Avish one. Perhaps its a good thing perhaps not, I really don't have enough experience to tell. Perhaps you could also enlighten us on why you voted DP? Or is everyone not giving reasons for their votes today?

I don't get how Leech is Town and I'm 'Mister Neutral' when I started the attack on Avish and he built it up from my case.

DP: Very interesting, combined with Eggy's play it will be interesting to see how the game transpires. I'm questionable about his vote towards me. Which is why I suggested Shotty and DP may be scum partners however I can't make an informed choice on their morality unless they provide actual reasons for voting me.

Do you disagree with my #302 where I explained reasons why I believe Eggy/DP slot is Town?

Before I get to answering your questions: what's up with preparing your attack during the night? Certain you weren't going to die? Your vote on Avish yesterday was pretty static - why didn't you do this studying yesterday?

If you were paying attention, I was pretty damn certain that Avish was going to flip scum and when the wagon on her rolled along, I was glad that she finally got the attention she deserved. But her doc flip was just sad sad sad. What's wrong with prepping my attack for the night?

If you "studied" my ISO last night, did you just happen to miss the part where I eventually agreed that lynching a scum suspect had a greater benefit than lynching a claimed VT? And so I voted for you due to your inconsistencies (explained again below) - and then I shifted to Avish, yep. But if you studied my ISO (studied, implying looked at with vigour and attention) you should have seen (a) me trying to get people on your wagon, (b) me still being open to a Shotty lynch but it not having the support, and (c) me doing a FULL ISO ANALYSIS of Avish close to deadline. How can you suggest its weird and opportunistic (I think this is the claim you're making) when the reasoning is there in a neat little list with reasons attached to each post that I found scummy? I was see-sawing on her because I found you suspicious - when I looked at her without you as context, she looked a good lynch. I think that neatly sums up the dilemma that I had. And are you honestly calling it suspect that I found pretty much the only person you seriously voted for all day, to be a good lynch candidate?

Hmm...you're right. I kind of missed that. I'm a major wall skimmer.

The inconsistency is that you initially stated that LC and TL were competing for your #2 scummy spot. But then you said that if Avish flipped scum, you would condone speedlynching LC. You dropped TL entirely out of the equation. You went from "unsure" to "certain" without explaining why or how.

With TL's slip ups today, this throws a new light onto this inconsistency - you mention TL as your 2nd suspect (not someone you'd vote for atm), and then conveniently relegate him from your scumlist. Then you can point to your "suspicion" of TL later and say "Ohay, I'm not buddies, he was my #2 suspect!" --- without ever having to follow through on building a case against him.

Well, duh! LC was doing something that I initially read as a bus. TL wasn't. In D1, I read TL was more like diverting the attention from Avish back to Shotty. In my head: LC was obvbussing someone I read as scum and TL was trying to save someone I read as scum. Both actions quite scummy, but I was more confident in LC obvbussing because I've seen failbusses before and that smelled like a failbus. Avish and LC's flip say otherwise though.

Are you accusing me of being buddies with TL? Don't you need TL's flip before that? What's your read on TL currently?