Mafia 121 -- Picking Simplicity Game Over

[Jack]

Nacho, I'm sure your uk-is-scum eyes can see the chatter between her and Agar as bussing/distancing.

[UncertainKitten]

@Jack: Gee, didn't I just say that?

Thanks for going into more detail though ^-^.

@Haylen: You could post about how you are completely excused of the lack of things you have done, or you can shut up for a few hours and actually read the game, post your thoughts on everyone, and altogether scum hunt. I hope you can tell which one is a more pro town choice.

[Xine]

Haylen: Breaking a promise=lying, and read more carefully, I accused you of lying exactly one time. how about that content post?
(ninjad by UK)

[Jack]

nacho, I eagerly await the UK case.

I see a few UK votes, which I don't understand. Reading nacho's case.

nacho, I disagree with your assessment of UK's play, but I do think she needs to learn yoga or breathing exercises or something to calm down.

I also find interaction with LMP to be peculiar

Appeasement?! It's a joke that only Haylen and I understand, I just explained it!

Yeah, I don't see anything about nitpicking in either of those posts.

Please try again.

5) Azazel and Antihero lurk like pros. Also, in case anyone forgot, look at their interactions earlier in the day. At least 1 of them is scum, possibly both.

Nope, just something I noticed in the vote count, Mr. Hay Factory.

LMP's case = hilarious epicfail.

LMP, you're still harking on about that stupid appeasement bullshit? For the last time, I was explaining an inside joke between me and Haylen to Azazel, who obviously didn't get the reference and voted me based on it.

LMP is so full of it, it's gushing out his ears.

VOTE: LynchMePls

I can't at all see where and why he found it was scummy. It seems purely defensive.

Oh. Jack is right. Xine is scummy.

I (think) I see what you see with xine (mere quoting + jump on bandwagon).

Xine's points on Haylen and Agar fail pretty badly (not to mention they're kind of fencesittish), as does the soft attack on Jack.

I also think, given the huge errors in his description of Xine's points, that this is an example of scum remembering their "suspect" and throwing out a point for consistencies sake.

[Jack]

In summary then his play can be characterized as:

Pretending to have eager interest in players, when he actually doesn't (nacho uk quotes).

Belatedly trying to turn a defensive stance into a "I suspect him" stance (lmp quotes).

Trying to keep up the appearance of suspicion on someone but not actually reading them carefully (Xine quotes).

Pretend edit:

Apologies, I missed this quote:

Who at the present time is the most scummy to you all? and Why?

Nik for the crappy attacks, and LMP for both nitpicking and crappy attacks.

But the point is essentially untouched. He proclaims him most scummy once, but in the middle section(responding with " " and "epicfail" and such) he does not speak as if he finds LMP scummy, until his late vote here, which is also strange given the wagon state (UK vs agar). He says uk isn't scummy, but his statement about Agar is a step back, he says "Xine's points on Agar fail".

Additionally, here is what Xine said about haylen:

she has spent this game making AtE excuses, stalling, and active lurking. when called out on it she complains and calls names, goes V/LA and continues to post (so V/LA to her is an excuse to active lurk?) she has promised a content post by the end of Monday, and if it is not posted on time, I will absolutely vote her for lying/stalling...again, early tues morning.

Here is what Antihero said about snake:

The hardcore AtE + the continued refusal to scumhunt = scumSnake; I like my vote.

And here is what Antihero said about Xine's points about haylen:

Xine's points on Haylen...fail pretty badly

unvote, vote:Antihero

I think even AGar can wait till tomorrow, although they are very likely scumbuddies

[LimMePls]

579 is win. I was beginning to feel like I was talking to myself on this Antihero = scum thing.

@Haylen: Breaking a promise is lying.

[Jack]

before this derails though. Breaking a promise is not lying. Lying is saying something you believe to be false. Commissive statements cannot be true or false, they can only be sincere or insincere (based on whether the person intends to keep the promise).

[AGar]

AGar is hilarious. He is so obviously scum it's blinding. "Herp derp I'm going to jump on this growing bandwagon that's not me and non chalantly play off the fact I have no actual leg to stand on for my vote!"

Well, you got 2/3 of it.

I am hilarious.

I did jump on a bandwagon that's not me. No one, besides Xine - who's towniness I don't trust - has voted Haylen, everyone wants to save her based on Nikanor's "She does this as both alignments!" meta (so it's a null read, which means there's no defense for her play which has been conveniently scummy, which I already did point out, which is a point I have been hammering uselessly). Other two wagons are you or me. I'm not going to self-vote. So I have no leg. But if you're not going to see what I pointed out, I'm not going to waste my time hunting down another suspect. Rather just blindly wagon until a lynch happens.

[UncertainKitten]

And that's what's hilarious. You do not *care* who gets lynched, as long as it isn't you.

That's scummy :O

[eldarad]

I don't get elderad's vote.

In a nutshell, I don't understand how LMP's case, such as it is, can be used as a basis for a vote on antihero when it is primarily focussed on Azazel.

Now, I haven't figured out why LMP would vote on that basis, but it doesn't make sense from a town perspective. From a scum perspective I guess I can see it being done as a method of bussing or to link a scumbuddy to a townie.
LMP's #519 where he suggests a chainsaw defence link between Azazel and antihero just makes me further feel like LMP is linking a buddy to a townie.

~~~
@Nacho, I deliberately avoided commenting on the UK case when I posted #518 because I wanted UK to address the case before other people jumped in.

The only valid part of your case, in my view, is your highlighting of the neutral reads in iso#50-54 apart from the scum read on Lowell. Although actually #54 suggests a scummish read on Xine in a non-committal way.

The things pointed out in #2, #29 and #67 aren't scummy.

~~~
I don't like Xine's #529, particuarly the bit where he points to Empking as being scum because Yos was NKed.
Xine's #565 is pretty bad too. I'm getting a pretty strong scumread on Xine.

...and we're back to the lying/sincere mistake thing regarding Haylen this time, rather than Yos. Why is this repeatedly being brought up as an issue?!

#578 is interesting and I think needs exploring more, but I don't have time to go into it further just now.

[Jack]

I don't understand what you don't understand about it, or why you jump from "I don't see why town" to "scum".

He finds them both scummy.

They have a weird interaction that doesn't sound natural --> since they are both scummy it's distancing scum interaction

Then UK asks for his case

on antihero

.

So he says "here's my case

on antihero

and btw azazel is his scumbuddy". You make a big deal out of this and claim that he's trying to shoehorn points, but that's not true.

There's nothing at all unnaturally town here, just that he finds something scummy that you don't. I see no attempt from you to judge the entirety of LMP's play, and you say that my case on antihero (which is strong and simple) is interesting but that you can't look at it now(??) even though Antihero's guilt would seem very relevant to LMP.

What do you think of LMP's ISO 12 and 13? I basically feel like you are making a case on lmp based off of one post and haven't even bothered to read him in ISO or look at the post that he made that one in response too.

fos:elderad

[LimMePls]

I see a few UK votes, which I don't understand. Reading nacho's case.

You see a few UK votes, that you don't understand, but you know there is a nacho case on UK you haven't read yet!? Wow, this is so awesome.

Unvote
Vote: Antihero

Srsly people, this wagon is win. Don't forget this gem late yesterday as well:

I'm looking at the votecount and I don't recall being the first on the Snake wagon (not that I have a problem with it, it's a good wagon, but that's kind of weird).

[Jack]

Just caught this:

Nacho, I'm sure your uk-is-scum eyes can see the chatter between her and Agar as bussing/distancing.

@Jack: Gee, didn't I just say that?

[UncertainKitten]

Yes, because clearly I haven't been on AGar since you posted a rather decent case on him. I'm not sure I get your point?

[Nobody Special]

Nocmen replaces mothrax effective immediately -- Thank you, Nocmen!!

[Jack]

Replacing the claimed SK, that's a tough job. Hope you enjoy being the town puppet.

@uk: just a joke

[Nocmen]

Hello all, I'm taking over, I'm going to read and hopefully get through this tonight.

[Glork]

Okay, I fail miserably. Budding relationship has taken up my spare time, and I will be on

V/LA until Sunday

. If you need to replace me, I understand it... if not, I promise this will be priority #1 as soon as I get back into town.

[Nocmen]

Comments I've seen about my read in the order they happened:

I have no idea what to think about Jack's "claim", I know I can't take it seriously because it's so early and would be stupid for him to claim like that.
Glork and Emp go after this claim and response by LMP, for suggesting it's a scum gambit?
Glork also thinks Nikanor is a buddy with LMP. I don't think LMP's suggestion here is too scummy at all. Especially when Glork seems to contradict that saying "just because it's not posted doesn't mean no one thinks it"
eldarad joins the LMP wagon because he "has the urge to jump on a wagon"
Antihero votes nikanor because he thinks post 57 is a deflection
LMP then votes for anti-hero. At this point I'm getting really weird vibes about a LMP-nikanor connection.
Not liking nikanor's defense of antihero's vote on him.
UK would rather lynch nikanor first as opposed to LMP
Azazel goes after LMP for his vote on Antihero
LMP's defense seems to be "that's funny".
Azazel's exchange with LMP seems a bit weird, but I still think it leans more towards LMP as scum.
I find this post of Emp very interesting:

3. Because you're the scummiest player so it looks like he's trying to avoid a connection.

LMP had only made a few posts by this point, and none of them looked especially scummy to me. Want to explain yourself, empking?
.

I'm not certain what you're asking but...
1. There's a reason that point was last.
2. LMP liked Jack's claim. Town was like "Ugh" but LMP had to guess as to the feelings of the town with nothing to go on (he posted first) and he guessed completely wrong.

Especially 2.
UK votes for Lowell, Glork promotes it, but that also seems like it could be sarcasm on Glork's end.

LMP redeems himself slightly when he explains the possible reasons behind Jack's claim gambit.
eldarad calls out Nikanor for not criticizing Jack when he critized Glork for the same thing.
Nik keeps his vote on Emp for "craplogic"
Yos thinks LMP is actually pro-town
Xine votes Azazel for voting Antihero but not wanting to lynch him. I feel that this is a bit of craplogic
Vasudeva says he prefers competeing wagons, and also thinks that LMP-Nik is a scum pair, or at least LMP is scum.
UK says to lynch Lowell. Still don't know why at this point.
Yos thinks that promoting LMP's questioning of Jack's claim of a scum gambit gives LMP town creds.
I find Yos's defense of LMP weird at this time. I don't know if Yos would do so much obvious buddying with LMP, but it's possible still as a gambit. Though if I had to take a guess, I think that Yos and LMP are of opposite factions, but I don't know which of those two would be the scum.
The Emp-Yos exchange I feel Yos doesn't have too much to go against Emp with. I feel Emp's concern is that of a town's perspective.
Nikanor thinks there should be more votes on Emp.

I'm just through Page 8, I reached that point where I need to take a break from reading for a bit, so I'll get through at least another 5 pages, if not 8-10 within an hour.

[UncertainKitten]

Well, let me put the Lowell thing this way. Is there any reason I *shouldn't* be voting Lowell?

[UncertainKitten]

EBWOP: At that point, I mean.

[Nocmen]

Starting with Page 9:
Jack votes Emp for....distancing with Yos?
Then he switches his vote to Agar for...what?
Snake comes and realizes that he still has his RVS up...this is page 9.
UK now goes for Snake or Lowell. I'm presuming this is for lurking at this point.
Vas votes Emp for not knowing Emp's meta.
Snake says he hasn't dissappeared when he shows complete ignorance towards the game in general.
LMP goes after Emp becuase....yos says so?
Emp claims that snake isn't as scummy as LMP.
Agar jumps on the wagon without much reasoning.
Xine gives a small defense to Snake I think? From saying not posting much could be playstyle, and unvoting. Or is Xine's unvote a vote on him? I couldn't tell.
Jack doesn't think Snake is scum. But I don't know why.
CJMiller comes in out of nowhere and votes for Snake.
Lowell, Glork, and Haylen all go for CJ now. Same with UK.
I'm curious as to why people are taking CJ over Snake at this time, is it because he did nothing but join in the wagon?
LMP seems to ask eldarad about Emp in the middle of the Snake/CJ wagons.
AGar goes for the Snake over CJ wagon, and Glork conforms to that.
Haylen's voting seems a bit weird with this wagon and seems a bit afraid to go after anything. Though I can't defend anything that "I" (moth) said, as I have no clue what he was thinking when he said what he did.
Haylen's post 346 seems a bit weird too especially with the fact that this is an open game, so speculation about a framer is way out of place. Once again, this post shows that she seems afraid to go on any wagon.
LMP joins this wagon late as well, with little to no actual reasoning towards the vote on Snake.
Jack jumps in late too...after he said he didn't see Snake as scum. Then votes me(moth) why? Then snake again.
Emp hammers. End of Day 1. Snake, CJ, and Yos all end up dead.

Third (and prolly final) part of my read through coming up next.

[Nocmen]

Okay so Day 2:
UK says Jack wasn't targetted by scum guaranteed? Is that a slip?
LMP gives a few quotes on Azazel and Antihero, but just says "this is funny, then he vanishes". I'm starting to notice that ever since LMP got called out for "thinking too much of what others think of him", he's been coming and going, posting a lot less.
Nik votes Xine for the fact that he thinks Xine could be either anti-town role?
A bit confused about Nik's comments with SK claiming and strategy.
Now UK wants to be convinced about Lowell? or is that meant as she is hesitant to drop the vote on Lowell?
RedCoyote says that me, Nacho, sudo, and Xine are all good wagons.
I don't see why Sudo/Xine would be something you'd consider less scummy than me/moth. A lot of the suspicions on moth has been from Haylen, something that I've seen doesn't make much sense right now.
Lowell and Emp vote for UK, seems more like it's a OMGUS for Lowell, not sure why Emp
Now Emp votes Haylen for being "opportunistic"
Nik and Vas vote for AGar for a meta comment. UK jumps on this too. zOMG Haylen as well. eldarad too.
Haylen seems to be a bit distracting in post 502.
Jack doesn't like nacho's case on UK, nor eldarad's vote on LMP.
Lowell votes AGar as well for the same reasons above.
Nacho gives more info about SK claiming and giving information about how a claim of SK would work in here.
I don't see too much on Agar besides that one post that could be a possible slip up.
Jack's case on Antihero is interesting, as well as with the fact that Anti dissappeared for a bit without posts.

And that's it.

What I think of things:

More Town

RedCoyote
Nacho
Glork
eldarad
Xine
Emp
Nikanor
Vas
Jack
Lowell
Sudo
Agar
Antihero
UK
Haylen
LMP

More Scum

Through the posts I've made, the one person that has really stuck out to me is LMP. I still feel that gut where I said in the first post I really felt as if Yos and LMP were opposite factions. Additionally, LMP seems to be following wagons, not adding much more when he goes on the wagons, and seems to have a more retracted posting style ever since this:

I'm getting the feeling I'm about to enter a catch-22. If I say "oh you're right, Nikanor is trying to avoid a connection with me" then I'm admitting that avoiding a connection with me is somehow scummy. If I say "No, Nikanor isn't avoiding a connection with me" then you'll only take that as further evidence that we're distancing from each other.

On the other hand, this is kind of scummy, in an "overly concerned about what people think about him" kind of way.

VOTE: LynchMePlease

[UncertainKitten]

Now UK wants to be convinced about Lowell? or is that meant as she is hesitant to drop the vote on Lowell?

The latter. I still think Lowell is scum, and being transparent about it. We just have other targets more likely to be lynched.

UK says Jack wasn't targetted by scum guaranteed? Is that a slip?

Pretty obvious to anyone with a brain. Please don't be dumb. Rather, why Jack would never be targeted by scum N1 given the situation.

Any other questions?

[Nocmen]

Now UK wants to be convinced about Lowell? or is that meant as she is hesitant to drop the vote on Lowell?

The latter. I still think Lowell is scum, and being transparent about it. We just have other targets more likely to be lynched.

UK says Jack wasn't targetted by scum guaranteed? Is that a slip?

Pretty obvious to anyone with a brain. Please don't be dumb. Rather, why Jack would never be targeted by scum N1 given the situation.

Any other questions?

I understand with Lowell now, I really would like to hear more from him instead of him not contributing too much like he has been.

I don't think you can just assume that targetting Jack would be a dumb move. It depends how much the doctor was convinced by his claim, as well as whether the scum would be convinced of it as well. Taking out 1/2 of our power roles N1 would be huge for the scum.