Mafia 121 -- Picking Simplicity Game Over

[UncertainKitten]

I feel there were too many uncertainties to really make Jack a smart kill from a scum perspective. I think they had better targets. And clearly they thought so as well.

I also am not in the habit of assuming my opponents are idiots until they prove as such.

[Jack]

You ever replaced into a game before nocmen?

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, I'm sure your uk-is-scum eyes can see the chatter between her and Agar as bussing/distancing.

Of course. I would've doubted myself for a moment had AGar NOT voted UK.

[UncertainKitten]

Yes, of course. Since that didn't happen it supports your fucktarded version of events. Playing with Nacho is like playing with a religious conservative, I swear.

[UncertainKitten]

EBWOP: Sorry, that last was a little harsh. But the point stands that no matter what I do you're going to erroneously assume I'm scum and probably not bother looking at anyone else til I die. Which is quite a dumb action.

[AGar]

And that's what's hilarious. You do not *care* who gets lynched, as long as it isn't you.

That's scummy :O

Not entirely true.

I would be very unsatisfied with lynches of Jack, Nacho, Glork and RC. All others are ok with the right persuasion. And yes, I would rather not be lynched. It would be a shame, really, to die on D2.

[UncertainKitten]

Of course, pick all the *popular* choices for "I wouldn't lynch them :O!"

Again, it feels like you are worried more about survival than scumhunting. That is far more often done with scum intent. Possibly SK intent, actually.

[AGar]

Nacho is a popular choice?

Cool.

And yes, I have similarly established town-reads on players as others. Town reads tend to be much more communal, at least in my experiences. Usually one or two stick out and aren't agreed upon, but generally town reads are one thing everyone can agree on.

I'm more worried about seeing a flip at this point, since my prime choice isn't getting any real pressure.

Can you explain to me why you don't see the scumminess in Haylen's play? Yes, I eventually got to the point of berating her, rightfully. But I also

did

point out what I thought were some substantial reasons for her to be scum before that, as I have said. She has dodged putting out any reads well into D2 now. She conveniently avoided comment on almost anything yesterday, even when things were coming to a climax. Every post has either been her going "Wahh, I don't suck!" or "I'll post later, fuck off for wanting me to do something!"

The

only

defense procured so far has been by Nikanor that "she does this regardless of alignment."

Being that I do not subscribe to meta, that means nothing to me. I also made the offhanded comment that if this is what she does every game as scum or town, why do people tolerate it? Apathetic townies are the #1 downfall for any town. I could probably dig up at least 10 of my completed games where that worked out in scums favor.

The point I have made still stands - all Nikanor did is for anyone who subscribes to meta is say Haylen's actions are not indicative of any alignment. As I have said before - I do not use meta. I think it can be too easily tricked and screwed over. I could give a great example, but then everyone would start using that lovely buzzword "WIFOM" and I really don't feel like starting that up. Back on track, because I do not use meta, I have found her actions to be scummy. I have said this. A null-tell meta does nothing to change that. If someone wants to show me town motivation for everything I pointed out, I'll back off. But I don't see it. Who cares if I said the added benefit is also that I feel she's not a capable player and then we're removing that from the equation as well? Why should we keep a VI around, who is intentionally refusing to do anything? I find her scummy, and I see a double bonus here. It's called a two-fer. Am I not allowed to promote that?

The fact is, my wagon is based around the belief that I only want Haylen lynched because she's a bad player. Far from the truth. But if I'm going to be wagonned for that, I'm sure as hell going to counterwagon when no one else is biting on my case and the counterwagon is one of those people promoting the misrepresentation.

[AGar]

I'll do you a favor, UK. Here's the heavy lifting. I'm giving links to every post where I address reasoning as to why Haylen should be lynched. If you only see that I want her lynched because of poor play, then oh well, shit happens, counterwagon until one of us is dead.

Iso #12 - Pointing out the flaw in Haylen's reactionary attack on Mothrax for "misrepresenting" her.
Iso #15 - Pointing out 3 notable situations - not getting on SP's wagon, not even mentioning SP and the wagon, and sliding coyly onto the CJM wagon.
Iso #17 - Clarifying my points. Pointing out Haylen is trying to self-defend by way of some screwed up belief that I accused her of chainsaw.
Iso #18 - First post calling Haylen a bad player directly.
Iso #21 - First post of D2. Point out her actively denying to scumhunt and her useless behavior D1
Iso #22 - Meta is trash. She's bad, lynch her.
Iso #23 - Ego trip. Says I pointed out why Haylen is scummy. Also said, yes, I would love to lynch a bad player, who also is scummy at the same time.
Iso #25 - More ego, then echoing that I find Haylen scummy. I don't know why I need to echo that sentiment so much? Ask for D2 scumhunting.


That should be plenty for you to see, methinks. Everything else is just me arguing with LMP or calling everyone an idiot. Classic AGar.

[Nocmen]

I feel there were too many uncertainties to really make Jack a smart kill from a scum perspective. I think they had better targets. And clearly they thought so as well.

I also am not in the habit of assuming my opponents are idiots until they prove as such.

I never said it was a smart play to go ahead and kill him, but I wouldn't say it was something that was guaranteed going into N1.

Jack : I have replaced in before, this is the first time I have in a while, is there a problem you have with how I've replaced in?

I don't see where AGar has been too scummy. I feel that Haylen is quite scummy in her actions too.

I'd be fine with a Haylen lynch today too.

[Jack]

No, no problem, do you remember the game names offhand?

[Nocmen]

No I don't. I took a 18+ month break from this site and recently got back into it. I can try to see what I find.

[Nocmen]

Douple Post: Here are two games I found where I replaced in, a long long time ago.
http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewtopic.php?p=834588
http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewto ... c28a1cbfd2

[VasudeVa]

Nocmen is superTown.
I have little doubt in my mind that Jack is Town. I think some of the Vanillaside players here who were scumbuddies with Jack would agree. *cough*RC*cough*

So plenty of mudslinging has happened, it seems. Nacho Vs. UK and Hayl Vs. AGar.

On Nacho vs. UK, I'm not sure I get what Nacho is getting at. Nacho, when was the last time you've played with UK? Care to tell me why you think her play is horrible and she's rusty scum? Her play is similar to what I've seen of her just recently though, where I was scum and she was Town.

On Hayl Vs. AGar, I dislike AGar's brutal frankness and dismissal of the case against him. He's cocky enough to say 'Yes, I did that' on the stuff people dislike him for. If he's scum, we're letting him get away with his bullshit because he admits to them anyway. "I'm being douchey anti-town on purpose yo" defense doesn't fly with me. On the other hand, Gawd, I think I'm seeing what he's saying on Hayl though. Doesn't read like bussing/distancing though because Hayl threatened to replace out.

I think I'll keep my vote on AGar because mean scum is tough to lynch and I disliked his defense on Nikanor's #477. He called it weak in a mean douchey way, said meta is shit HOWEVER says 'I'm a supah fly scum player yo'. Blatant contradiction here. That doesn't mean anything if it's coming from the player accused due to conflict of interest. Did anyone else find Nikanor's #477 slip case on AGar weak?

[Jack]

Douple Post: Here are two games I found where I replaced in, a long long time ago.
http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewtopic.php?p=834588
http://www.mafiascum.net/archive/viewto ... c28a1cbfd2

Just checking to see if your style of replacing was at least consistent.

[LimMePls]

Obviously I disagree with a number of the characterizations from Nocmen. In particular:

LMP's defense seems to be "that's funny".
Azazel's exchange with LMP seems a bit weird, but I still think it leans more towards LMP as scum.

I said "that's funny" but that's not all I said, they were long posts with perfectly logical points. Explain how the defense was "that's funny". What does it mean for our exchange to be "a bit weird, but leans more towards LMP as scum"? Explain how that exchange makes me scum please.

I find Yos's defense of LMP weird at this time. I don't know if Yos would do so much obvious buddying with LMP, but it's possible still as a gambit. Though if I had to take a guess, I think that Yos and LMP are of opposite factions, but I don't know which of those two would be the scum.

Please explain the logic behind this statement. How, at that point in the game, did you arrive at the conclusion that we were of opposite alignments, but you don't know which one would be scum.

LMP seems to ask eldarad about Emp in the middle of the Snake/CJ wagons.

Empking was still a viable wagon with as many or near as many votes as Snake/CJ. eldarad had also been away from the thread awhile (during the whole build up of the Emp wagon) without ever taking a stance on it, so I wanted a comment from him on it. Explain how my asking for his opinion on Empking "in the middle of the Snake/CJ wagons" is scummy when I was still pushing for an Empking wagon.

LMP joins this wagon late as well, with little to no actual reasoning towards the vote on Snake.

Flatly false. To quote myself:

Would you like the explain the Snake wagon?

Missed this part. Why is this so hard for you to understand? Just ISO him, it's pretty obvious. Here is a list of scummy things Snake has done/said.

Right I haven't disappeared for pages in fact I think you'll find me on the last one. I am playing in 4 games currently and I am mod ding one off site, so it's a bit hard keeping notes on where I am in each one.

So not voting on Emp because he posts a lot? I think you'll find posting a whole lot is actually a scum tell as they tend to overcompensate to try and make themselves look like town by being an active 'scum hunter' then there's the other end of the scale where the lurkers avoid posting to keep their neck out of the noose and be forgotten about.

Are we anywhere near endgame anyway Lowell?

Absurd "posting alot = scummy" argument.

Really? Well UK your dumber than I thought then. Why exactly is it another reason? You still are yet to provide anything of worth to back that up. However I do agree with Emp looking the scummiest. I go back to my previous over posting theorem.

vote Empking

Obv bandwagon vote when pressure starts to mount on him.

Hey I don't mind if you lynch me as that will protect a power role for one more night. But your all going to look mighty silly when I flu town and Glork and/or Espy don't.

AtE.

Hey I won't bother dropping myself in it any deeper as I've screwed up from tye word go. I'm town, but your about to find that out real soon.

More AtE.

It depends on the frequency of posting throughout the game by everyone. Don't forget there will be those who will coast in the background to avoid getting picked out. But in my experience there is always at least one who really goes for it. Im not suggesting that you all follow my read, it's how I see the game. My judgement in part is made from that or at least for somewhere to start looking for the scum.

More trying to defend "lots of posting = scummy" terrible logic.

Better get ready then.

More more AtE.

So if im lynched and when I flip town who are you looking at for Scum? Oh, that would be you perhaps for pushing the lynch maybe?

Ridiculous suggestion that UK is scum for pushing his lynch.

I've screwed this game up enough...

unvote vote Snake

I know self voting is scummy, but I'm no good to you all here now. Apologies for not playing my best. Someone hammer pls and then you can sort out who the real scum are.

Do I really have to explain this one.

Seriously Haylen, what is hard to understand about this wagon? I don't care if you agree, but I don't understand how it is hard to follow. This is why I say I think you're lazy. Reading his ISO doesn't take much effort, its on one page.

How does that = "little to no actual reasoning"?

LMP gives a few quotes on Azazel and Antihero, but just says "this is funny, then he vanishes". I'm starting to notice that ever since LMP got called out for "thinking too much of what others think of him", he's been coming and going, posting a lot less.

Completely lacking context. I provided those quotes because I was specifically asked for my case on Antihero, so I wasn't just saying "this is funny, then he vanishes", I was specifically showing why I think Antihero is scum (and Azazel is probably his buddy). Secondly, the notion that I'm posting much less is completely lacking in any factual basis. If you have any way to back that assertion, I'd love to hear it.

Jack's case on Antihero is interesting, as well as with the fact that Anti dissappeared for a bit without posts.

This makes me LOL.

I find all of Nocmen's catchup posting looks like it was designed to reach the conclusion to vote me. In particular this quote:

I find Yos's defense of LMP weird at this time. I don't know if Yos would do so much obvious buddying with LMP, but it's possible still as a gambit. Though if I had to take a guess, I think that Yos and LMP are of opposite factions, but I don't know which of those two would be the scum.

doesn't make sense to me at all, and makes me wonder if Nocmen already knew the Yos flip as he was reading the game.

[Jack]

I found a lot of things uncomfortable about it to.

He at least does that kind of thing when replacing as town (page 7 of the first link). But the content is still questionable.

[UncertainKitten]

@AGar: If you don't do anything with meta, why did you think that we shouldn't vote you because you've only been lynched as scum twice

in previous games

.

So, please, I'm getting sick of this "I don't do meta" bullshit. At least qualify it with "I don't do meta unless I'm trying to save my own ass"

As for Haylen, she's been becoming progressively more scummy as she continues to be useless. At this point I would probably support a lynch on her...assuming you, Lowell, and Xine were dead first.

As for you claiming you think Haylen is scummy, the problem is you start out like that, and then it slowly devolves into "Haylen is a bad player". Jack correctly called you out on this.

And yes, I've actually seen several people who are unwilling to lynch Nacho. So yes, he's a popular choice for not lynching.

@VV: I understand what you are saying but it reads a lot like "AGar is an asshole. Let's lynch him."

Hmm...though, actually, didn't AGar say something about how antagonism isn't anti town if you always do it? Or was that someone else? Because if it was him it is yet another ~*~convenient~*~ disrespect for his *NO META* rule.

@Jack: You want to know what bugs me *most* about Nocmen's replacement post? Because it is a technique I have used quite effectively as scum when making a replacement summary?

"I" (moth) said, as I have no clue what he was thinking when he said what he did.

That. Right there.

Now, do I think Nocmen is scum? Not yet, I just have an eye on him right now. We have so many OTHER scum to lynch that we have some work ahead of us.

[UncertainKitten]

EBWOP: OK, unless I missed something, it was indeed *not* AGar that said that. My apologies for the misrememberence.

[VasudeVa]

It's more like 'He contradicts his stances on meta in a conveniently asshole-y way so let's lynch him.'

[UncertainKitten]

I like that more VV .

[Nobody Special]

Votecount 2.05

AGar - 5 - Nikanor, VasudeVa, UncertainKitten, Haylen, Lowell
LynchMePls - 3 - eldarad, Antihero, Nocmen
UncertainKitten - 3 - Nachomamma8, Empking, AGar
Antihero - 2 - Jack, LynchMePls
Haylen - 1 - Xine
Nocmen - 1 - RedCoyote

Not Voting: Glork, Sudo_Nym

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

V/LA: Glork, through Sunday (11-21)

Deadline: November 23

Random notes:

-- Smile. Sometimes, it's all you need.
-- Deadline is just under a week....
-- Reminder: If no majority reached by deadline, there will be NO LYNCH

[Jack]

So can we get the Antihero wagon going please?

Also,

LynchMePls - 3 - eldarad, Antihero, Nocmen

[Nocmen]

LMP: Maybe I was getting a bit too narrow minded during my read through on you. But I saw you as possibly scummy early on, something that I would have quickly voted and pushed for had I been there when it occured. It just so happened that you did a lot more scummy things since then that made me feel more that you were scum.

For the lack of reasoning, you're quoting posts, and adding a few words summary to that. There's not much real content you're adding, as well as the fact that people have said a lot of that before. I felt as if you just were quoting most of Snake's posts so it looks like you really did have reasoning for voting him.

With the Yos flip, I saw it as such:
Both scum: I don't think Yos would do so much buddying on LMP, while this is WIFOM, it's still very risky, because as soon as one of you flipped scum, it would lead to a large suspicion on the other.
Both are town: Yos defends LMP trying to get a different wagon for what he saw, and LMP takes it knowing he has at least one person that agrees with him.
Yos is scum, LMP is town: Yos would be defending LMP to try and get town cred, by going against one of the wagons early on, if LMP was to come up town.
LMP is scum, Yos is town: This one you can't look as Yos's defense too much, but LMP's responses to Yos seemed as if LMP was desparately trying to find something to grab on to.

As for you dissappearing, I'm not sure if you meant it as intentional or not, but if you look at your posts, you see that on the first day (Wed Oct 27) you post a lot, then you make your "catch-22" post and get called out for it. And then you barely have more than 1-2 posts per day since then. The only exception to this is Thurs Nov 4, which is right as the day is about to end.

[UncertainKitten]

@Jack: Why is the antihero wagon superior to the AGar wagon? I *like* the AGar wagon.