Mafia 121 -- Picking Simplicity Game Over

[Nocmen]

So you're voting UK for meta reasons, correct Nacho?

[UncertainKitten]

Um...Nacho, you DO realize I'm trying *not* to be a raging bitch every time I play since it pisses people off and leaves hard feelings, right? I've kinda failed here anyway, but I'm getting a little better.

Also Nacho never *did* answer my questions either. He hasn't a leg to stand on and knows it.

And I'd be *really* interested in hearing the theory behind holding back scum reads. It seems like a real...slippery way to avoid giving out suspicions that might bite you in the ass.

[Nachomamma8]

@Nocumen: Nope.

@UK: Fair enough. It's just like there's some huge aspect of this game missing because I see UncertainKitten in the playerlist so I expect to feel the rage. I have legs to stand on. I have two. I haven't answered your questions yet, I'll admit. But that'll come, soon. Also, there's no theory in holding back scumreads.

[VasudeVa]

Believe me, UK is way calmer now. I've been on the receiving end of her rage not too long ago . My last finished game with her was Castlevania Mafia.. I think that was.. like 2 months after Descent into Chaos where I was on the receiving end.

I don't think that weed smoker or scum is a proper dichotomy here. In fact, I think her play here is way more similar to Castlevania Maf. Of course, I have never seen her as scum. (In fact, I've never been Town with UK in a finished game >.>)

[Nachomamma8]

Well then Vas, my eyes have been opened.
However, meta reasons aren't why I'm voting UK. Meta is far too easy to manipulate for most and is thus useless.

[UncertainKitten]

So you're just doing what appears to be an anti town, and possibly scummy action for the hell of it? Cause I can tell you the theory about how scum intent could drive a desire to hold back scum reads ^-^.

To be fair Vasu, in Castlevania mafia I died N1. Then again, zwet was frustrating enough so I probably should have asploded if I were going to.

I'll point out you can probably counterexample my calmness with the rage fest that is Ladies Night mafia or Sly Cooper Must Die. Another calmer example, though rather firm, was Return to PEGBAM. I died N1 again though :S.

So apparently when I'm calm I die N1 :V.

@Nacho: Yeah, but your real stated reasons kinda suck too.

[VasudeVa]

Well then Vas, my eyes have been opened.
However, meta reasons aren't why I'm voting UK. Meta is far too easy to manipulate for most and is thus useless.

Well my main problem was you were either to calm UK and thus viewed her actions in scum-tinted glasses.

I don't really see your case though. I see quotes and criticisms, but no real/good judgment on what her scum intent was on each post you criticized. You were basically calling out the flaws in her play (just like AGar was to Hayl), but that's just that flaws. You weren't juicing out the scummy intentions of the posts you mentioned.

Now, thoughts on AGar's alignment? (Specifically, his actions and the case on him, not where his vote is.)

[Jack]

I agree with holding back scumreads sometimes.

[Nachomamma8]

Thoughts on AGar's alignment...
Well, I don't care about it. He's voting where I want him to vote, and thus if he's scum he's bussing and if he's town he's voting smart and if he's SK he's helping us for the moment. So, his alignment makes no difference to me no matter how you slice it.
His actions... whaddya mean? He's playing just fine to this point.
The case on him... haven't read it. Is there one you recommend?
Also, why do you care about my attitude about AGar? There's still plenty of people to go for an AGar lynch with you...

UK, don't tease me like that. Talk your dirty theory to me so we can have an alignment-neutral conversation, baby.

[RedCoyote]

Nocmen has done a fairly good job replacing in. I feel like I'm in a bit of an awkward position. Both Nocmen and Nacho have been doing pretty good, but I didn't like either of the players they replaced into.

Sigh.

Unvote

There are lots of lynches we can support, but Jack has put some effort into explaining how Antihero is kind of going through the motions. I willing to follow this lead for right now. I'd also really be interested in Xine still.

Vote: Antihero

[VasudeVa]

Gad, people are actively ignoring obvscum staring at their faces.

Everyone's next post will comment on my case on AGar or he/she will earn my IRE.

YOU DO NOT WANT TO EARN MY IRE. I CAN BE VERY ANNOYING. SRSLY. DON'T TEST ME.

(Read my #613 and #635 too which eventually led to the case)

The case on AGar is basically this:
1. He is tunneling on Haylen like it's his fucking dayjob and is actively ignoring other options. Basically, he is capitalizing on Haylen's uselessness, constantly attacking her and pointing fingers towards her to

appear

like he is scumhunting. Whenever questioned about his Haylen vote, he proceeds to repeat the same bullshit about meta being trash and Haylen being useless. His attacks are so obviously his go-to whenever the alarm 'I need to look like I'm scumhunting' rings in his scum mind. He continuously attacks Haylen on her uselessness(albeit true), and not updating his case. This is evidenced by his ISO #15, when AGar first attacked Haylen for not joining the Snake wagon and hoping over to the CJMiller wagon. Even after CJMiller and Snake's town flips, he proceeds to attack her, precisely to keep the illusion of scumhunt.

2. He has a very convenient 'Meta is Trash', which can more be accurately expounded as 'Meta is Trash, don't use it to defend other people or I will be mean to you.....except for this one dude named AGar who's scum meta is 100% reliable, and it can be used as defense if ever he is wagoned and if he was scum in this game you won't catch him ever so don't vote for him, ever'.

#1 is especially damning. #2 is pretty damning too. If you don't know who to vote for, vote AGar!

[Empking]

#2 is not damning in the least. #1 is really bad either.

[Nocmen]

Gad, people are actively ignoring obvscum staring at their faces.

Everyone's next post will comment on my case on AGar or he/she will earn my IRE.

YOU DO NOT WANT TO EARN MY IRE. I CAN BE VERY ANNOYING. SRSLY. DON'T TEST ME.

(Read my #613 and #635 too which eventually led to the case)

The case on AGar is basically this:
1. He is tunneling on Haylen like it's his fucking dayjob and is actively ignoring other options. Basically, he is capitalizing on Haylen's uselessness, constantly attacking her and pointing fingers towards her to

appear

like he is scumhunting. Whenever questioned about his Haylen vote, he proceeds to repeat the same bullshit about meta being trash and Haylen being useless. His attacks are so obviously his go-to whenever the alarm 'I need to look like I'm scumhunting' rings in his scum mind. He continuously attacks Haylen on her uselessness(albeit true), and not updating his case. This is evidenced by his ISO #15, when AGar first attacked Haylen for not joining the Snake wagon and hoping over to the CJMiller wagon. Even after CJMiller and Snake's town flips, he proceeds to attack her, precisely to keep the illusion of scumhunt.

2. He has a very convenient 'Meta is Trash', which can more be accurately expounded as 'Meta is Trash, don't use it to defend other people or I will be mean to you.....except for this one dude named AGar who's scum meta is 100% reliable, and it can be used as defense if ever he is wagoned and if he was scum in this game you won't catch him ever so don't vote for him, ever'.

#1 is especially damning. #2 is pretty damning too. If you don't know who to vote for, vote AGar!

1. I disagree with this. I feel that Haylen is suspicious because she is actively lurking and even said she'd rather take the backburner D1. Maybe AGar is tunneling on it, but what is your opinion, Vas, of the case on Haylen, besides just attacking AGar for it? All I've seen is this:

On the other hand, Gawd, I think I'm seeing what he's saying on Hayl though. Doesn't read like bussing/distancing though because Hayl threatened to replace out.

And you questioning her about bussing.

2. I can't really comment because I've never been one to use meta too much, but I do think it is useful as a possible scum tell. I wouldn't use meta as a town tell though, but that's my own opinion.

[UncertainKitten]

Am I exempt from this Vasu? Since I've kinda been saying the same thing, 'cept in different ways?

Also, I see I've merited Nacho's sig. AWESOME!

Anyway, scum benefit from holding back scum reads since it gives less implicative information when someone looks back at them. Further, it gives them more claimspace, though that is a lot less relevant in an open set up, so I wouldn't worry as much about this point. Also, if scum choose not to provide scum reads, it also prevents them from having to either fabricate a case or bus a buddy. Fabricated cases are a *really* good way to catch scum, especially with the intent approach.

So, no, I really don't agree that holding back scum reads benefits town whatsoever, but maybe Jack can argue that one since you don't seem to care to?

[Jack]

Sometimes your read is kind of nebulous and if you argue it it you convince yourself that it's more solid than it is. Sometimes it's better to juggle things.

You're right that it gives the town less to go on with regards to that person, so they have to step it up in another area.

[UncertainKitten]

Ooh, good rebuttal Jack. Confirmation bias is indeed a bad thing. I'll have to consider that in the future.

I think as it applies to Nacho's case though it's starting to fall into scummy.

[Nobody Special]

nopointinactingup replaces Sudo_Nym effective immediately.

[UncertainKitten]

...has Antihero even been posting lately? Cause if he hasn't, I think I may just switch to his wagon. I want AGar dead but if Antihero is just gonna roll over and give up, so much the better.

[Jack]

He has 55 posts on site since his last post here.

[UncertainKitten]

...wat?

Unvote, Vote Antihero

L-Too fucking Much.

This is the third vote on him. ANTIHERO NEEDS VOTES BADLY!

[Haylen]

I like and completely agree with the case on AGar that Vas made. I believed I called him out on his 'I hate meta, but I always win as scum so I cant be here!' defence a little while ago (which was hypocritical)

I'm gonna try and give my opinions on players in a bit. And no I haven't been active lurking.

[UncertainKitten]

Psst! Haylen! Vote Antihero while you're doing all that!

[AGar]

And no I haven't been active lurking.

Really? Because you haven't given a fucking opinion of your own all game.

[LimMePls]

I'm fine with Antihero wagon. Nocmen can wait to tomorrow, apparently some people are fooled by his "look at all this catchup stuff, aren't I pro-town (nevermind that it is completely contrived and full of contradictions/falsehoods)".

Unvote
Vote: Antihero

@VV: Your AGar case is not at all as damning as you think it is.

[Nachomamma8]

UK, wasn't I slipping into scumminess 116 posts ago?