Mafia 121 -- Picking Simplicity Game Over

[VasudeVa]

UK is exempt. Might consider switching over to the Antihero wagon if it's deadline and people are still being stupid. Honestly though, I think that any lurker-cases are kind of meh. Harmless lurker cases are the bane of a lot of Towns. I'm sure I'm not the only one here who lost games because Town preferred to lynch harmless lurkers.

Please do consider lynching AGar~

1. I disagree with this. I feel that Haylen is suspicious because she is actively lurking and even said she'd rather take the backburner D1. Maybe AGar is tunneling on it, but what is your opinion, Vas, of the case on Haylen, besides just attacking AGar for it? All I've seen is this:

-snip quote-

And you questioning her about bussing.

No. Haylen is suspicious in her own right. While I agree that Haylen is useless and slightly scummy...but what makes AGar worse is that his tunnel is horrible. I am suspicious of his motivations. Think about it. He had Haylscum pegged just because of her uselessness alone? He keeps pointing out Hayl's uselessness... and keeps going back at Hayl's uselessness whenever people try to reason with him.

There are

many

useless people in this game and the only one he's calling out is Hayl. Kinda picky, doncha' think?

His attacks on her are simply 'She's useless. I called her scum for other reasons* yesterday, but I am too lazy to look back and think about that so I'll just ignore my previous reasons and keep pointing out her uselessness and meta's trashyness whenever people try to defend her.'

*the reasons: Hayl joining the Snake wagon and coying over to the CJMiller wagon. Both flipped Town.

@VV: Your AGar case is not at all as damning as you think it is.

#2 is not damning in the least. #1 is really bad either.

Please expound.

If you don't and AGar flips scum, I'll tunnel on

both

of you like a madman~. 8D.

[Jack]

I am a lot less gung-ho for the AGar wagon than before.

@vas: "harmless lurker lynch"?????

apparently some people are fooled by his "look at all this catchup stuff, aren't I pro-town

I'm unsure about nocmen, but this is true. It's tempting to put him in the town slot based on that, but this is scum doing a catchup post:

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2445274

Some people care enough to put major effort in as scum...

[eldarad]

you say that my case on antihero (which is strong and simple) is interesting but that you can't look at it now(??) even though Antihero's guilt would seem very relevant to LMP.

Indeed, it is very relevant to LMP, as I was looking at LMP-antihero interactions whereas you came at it in the other direction. Which is why it looks interesting and I wanted to look at it in detail (specifically, I wanted to read the quotes in context)

I'm happy with the points and the contrasts that you highlight, both above and particuarly in #625, plus #668, which is pretty damning.

I don't understand what you don't understand about it, or why you jump from "I don't see why town" to "scum".

He finds them both scummy.

They have a weird interaction that doesn't sound natural --> since they are both scummy it's distancing scum interaction

I don't recognise the weird interaction between them. But yeah, your explanation makes sense if he finds them both scum (which he does) and he sees weird interaction between them (which I suggest he doesn't).

The only interaction LMP identifies is a supposed chainsaw defence between azazel and antihero, which doesn't mean a lot at this point.

What do you think of LMP's ISO 12 and 13? I basically feel like you are making a case on lmp based off of one post and haven't even bothered to read him in ISO or look at the post that he made that one in response too.

Yes I read his iso, and addressed #12 and #13 already - although it was lumped into the consideration of #431, which was a post that quoted LMP's previous posts.

~~~
@Vas, #1 is OK but not "damning", to use your words. Yes, AGar is tunnelling. I'm not convinced that AGar's iso#15 is scummy at all.
#2, there is some inconsistency in AGar's attitude to meta, but I've gone cold on that as an indication of AGar as scum.

[Nocmen]

I'm fine with Antihero wagon. Nocmen can wait to tomorrow, apparently some people are fooled by his "look at all this catchup stuff, aren't I pro-town (nevermind that it is completely contrived and full of contradictions/falsehoods)".

Unvote
Vote: Antihero

@VV: Your AGar case is not at all as damning as you think it is.

Are you just trying to flip between Anti and Me, and going whichever is most popular?

[Nocmen]

Also, AGar: What do you think of the other lurkers (Antihero, Lowell, etc) and do you think they are scummy?

[Jack]

I'm fine with Antihero wagon. Nocmen can wait to tomorrow, apparently some people are fooled by his "look at all this catchup stuff, aren't I pro-town (nevermind that it is completely contrived and full of contradictions/falsehoods)".

Unvote
Vote: Antihero

@VV: Your AGar case is not at all as damning as you think it is.

Are you just trying to flip between Anti and Me, and going whichever is most popular?

When the hell were you most popular?

[LimMePls]

The only interaction LMP identifies is a supposed chainsaw defence between azazel and antihero, which doesn't mean a lot at this point.

It wasn't a chainsaw defense, it was that he claimed to completely change his opinion of Antihero because Antihero made 1 post (and it was a scummy post at that!) Go back and look at it. He votes Antihero "to see where this goes", Antihero makes 1 post (IMO incredibly scummy) and Azazel goes on to call him town!!! It's completely illogical.

[LimMePls]

I'm fine with Antihero wagon. Nocmen can wait to tomorrow, apparently some people are fooled by his "look at all this catchup stuff, aren't I pro-town (nevermind that it is completely contrived and full of contradictions/falsehoods)".

Unvote
Vote: Antihero

@VV: Your AGar case is not at all as damning as you think it is.

Are you just trying to flip between Anti and Me, and going whichever is most popular?

We've got a live one here. SQUIRM SCUM!

[LimMePls]

@VV: Tunneling isn't scummy. If town thinks a particular player is scummy, why wouldn't they push it hard? I see "tunneling" thrown around all the time, and I've never seen someone accused of it flip scum. This is anecdotal from my point of view, but I don't understand why you think it is a major scum tell. Why are scum more likely to tunnel than town?

Tunneling is one of those buzzwords I hear thrown out when people want to look like they are scum hunting when they aren't actually scum hunting. If tunneling is the best thing you've got, your case isn't at all "damning".

[Nocmen]

I'm fine with Antihero wagon. Nocmen can wait to tomorrow, apparently some people are fooled by his "look at all this catchup stuff, aren't I pro-town (nevermind that it is completely contrived and full of contradictions/falsehoods)".

Unvote
Vote: Antihero

@VV: Your AGar case is not at all as damning as you think it is.

Are you just trying to flip between Anti and Me, and going whichever is most popular?

When the hell were you most popular?

I never said I was, but when people started saying stuff about Anti being suspicious, LMP switches his vote to him. Opportunistic?

[Jack]

Are you just trying to flip between Anti and Me, and going whichever is most popular?

When the hell were you most popular?

I never said I was, but when people started saying stuff about Anti being suspicious, LMP switches his vote to him. Opportunistic?

[VasudeVa]

Dear Jack, I missed your case. I slightly agree with it. But can we lynch AGar first? I'm sure-errer on him. I'm not a fan of lynching lurkers this early, scum or not. I always feel like we can do better if we are forced to lynch scummy lurkers.

@VV: Tunneling isn't scummy. If town thinks a particular player is scummy, why wouldn't they push it hard? I see "tunneling" thrown around all the time, and I've never seen someone accused of it flip scum. This is anecdotal from my point of view, but I don't understand why you think it is a major scum tell. Why are scum more likely to tunnel than town?

Tunneling is one of those buzzwords I hear thrown out when people want to look like they are scum hunting when they aren't actually scum hunting. If tunneling is the best thing you've got, your case isn't at all "damning".

Uhh, yeah. Goes to show, you aren't reading the case.
My launcher attack is on his tunnel, but my air combo(where the real damage is) is aimed at the content of his shitty tunnel.

(Fighting game metaphors for the win! *plays more Guilty Gear*)

GAME OVER!

CONTINUE?

9

Credits left: (0) Insert Coin!

Player Wins: 5. Insert Coin to Challenge!

[LimMePls]

Either I fail at explaining this, or people fail at seeing it (although Jack seems to at least understand what I'm saying, so I can't be too crazy) so let me try again.

Vote: antihero

clearly someone isn't reading the game. I checked back and he's the only person who didn't comment in any way, shape, or form on the Jack situation so it's a good place to start.

I don't want him lynched

but I think I need to see where this goes.

LynchMePls's vote on Antihero may be the scummiest thing he's done all game.

Unvote
Vote: LynchMePls

I didn't see anything inherently scummy in his one post that would warrant wagoning on him. In fact, the timing of LMP's vote is bizarre, given that my earlier vote on him was based on his lack of posting beyond the RVS, especially past a point where serious shit was occurring. I mean, it really looks like bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagoning and hoping that everyone follows along.

Finally, your post seems like you're attacking me simply because I'm voting you and

because I don't think antihero is scummy anymore

. So, where's the scum motivation?

It is a complete reversal of opinion on Antihero based on this one (IMO highly scummy) post:

LOL! Quote tags.

Vote: antihero

clearly someone isn't reading the game. I checked back and he's the only person who didn't comment in any way, shape, or form on the Jack situation so it's a good place to start.

I don't want him lynched but I think I need to see where this goes.

I had to make that random vote. In a previous game, Haylen gave me a post restriction where I could only post in barks. I needed revenge. And no, I didn't read the thread before I posted.

As for Jack, I'm with UK on that issue.

UNVOTE:

Glork: If you're town, do you think it was a good idea to go around telling everyone what a great idea it would be for scum to shoot Jack tonight?

Crap flinging much?

Post 57 = deflection fail

VOTE: Nikanor

What's up with this, Jack?
And why is LMP nitpicking at the most minor point in what makes Nik scummy?

So, he votes him "but I don't want to see him lynched" and then later he says "because I don't think antihero is scummy anymore". First off, he tried to make his initial vote sound as weak as possible, and then later he made it sound like he had a scum read of antihero, but it's changed now, and all over this one god awful post. IT IS ILLOGICAL. I think Azazel's vote on Antihero was designed for distancing, but then he saw the opportunity to join my wagon (saying that his reasons are better than all the other reasons). It seriously doesn't make sense. Think about his language: "but I need to see where this goes". Did he actually wait to "see where this goes"? No, he almost immediately let up on Antihero, going on to say "because I don't think antihero is scummy anymore". It was simply absurd. And the only reason this all went to the back burner D1 is because he flaked out with a ton of questions on the table about it.

[LimMePls]

Did Nocmen just call me opportunistic for voting Antihero? Rly!?

[Nocmen]

Did Nocmen just call me opportunistic for voting Antihero? Rly!?

Pretty much, and it seemed a lot of the same way your vote was cast on Snake

[Jack]

Can you define opportunistic for me?

[Nocmen]

Can you define opportunistic for me?

Voting when others show interest in voting, and when they show appeal towards lynching someone and voting for them, joining in.

[VasudeVa]

Can you define opportunistic for me?

Voting when others show interest in voting, and when they show appeal towards lynching someone and voting for them, joining in.

This sounds like a Yoga mantra I've heard somewhere before.

[Jack]

Can you define opportunistic for me?

Voting when others show interest in voting, and when they show appeal towards lynching someone and voting for them, joining in.

By this definition, we can never lynch someone without ~5 opportunistic votes.

[UncertainKitten]

@Nacho: Well, the problem is, I've been experimenting with scumhunting from wagons on me. What I've concluded is I'm much more likely to think you are scum if you are voting me. Therefore, I'm *trying* to put brakes on my kneejerk reaction. At first I thought you were pretty sincere but that read is slowly changing.

@LMP: I've noticed. I'm curious where it will lead. And VV's case is p. good, IMO .

@VV: It's much less that Antihero is lurking, though that's what made me decide I wanted a noose around his neck. Particularly the lurking here but no where else thing, which is kinda damning. He's made several scummy contradictions that Jack has pointed out.

Also, funny thing is that towns that *didn't* lynch lurkers, in my experience, lost a lot more.

@Jack: I can show several examples of scum catch up posts in my own history. I usually win when I do them :V.

@LMP: Theoretically scum benefit from tunneling if it goes unremarked. It never does though, so it's rare that you'll implicate a scum solely on tunneling.

@VV: Lynching lurkers early is *better*. From both a gameplay and a pro town standpoint.

@Jack: I assume Nocmen means when they ~*~always~*~ do it, voting solely to be on the biggest or next biggest wagon.

OK!

[Jack]

@Jack: I assume Nocmen means when they ~*~always~*~ do it, voting solely to be on the biggest or next biggest wagon.

Is this what you meant Nocmen?

[Nocmen]

Yes, I found it convenient that he switches his vote when others criticize Anti again.

[Jack]

I guess I can see that. You could say he jumped on the Anti wagon even though he hadn't ever expressed suspicion of him before. But why didn't he join the AGar or UK wagons then, tell me that?

[Nocmen]

I guess I can see that. You could say he jumped on the Anti wagon even though he hadn't ever expressed suspicion of him before. But why didn't he join the AGar or UK wagons then, tell me that?

He did suspect Anti before. He made a big deal about Anti in D1 and early in D2. And then focuses on me, and when Anti votes start, he votes him again?

[Jack]

I guess I can see that. You could say he jumped on the Anti wagon even though he hadn't ever expressed suspicion of him before. But why didn't he join the AGar or UK wagons then, tell me that?

He did suspect Anti before. He made a big deal about Anti in D1 and early in D2. And then focuses on me, and when Anti votes start, he votes him again?

So where's your problem?