Mini 1049 - Hide and Seek Mafia - FINAL Kablooie!

[camn]

Chainsaw much?

Maybe the game would run better if you let Ice defend himself.
He is a lot better player than you, from what I can see, so I can't imagine you are helping him at all.

@ ice: spy jumped onto my townlist. That leaves you and NP on my scumlist. Thus, partners. Obvsubjecttochange.

I await Elli's perspective on things.

[SpyreX]

Soo, hypocrisy aside in #1, I'm scum because Pom and Kat were town.

Just checkin.

@Elli:

The self-vote, the goading for more votes on himself, the "ohhh wacky meta antics", voting for Kat based on a difference of reads, vezok town.

The ONE thing he did that I truly approved of was the push on Kat for the lying. But, I would have probably lynched him before that even happened.

[Iecerint]

@ SX's hypocrisy claim --

I am assuming that this is based on your view that I was on Pome's lynch "cheerled" Katsu's. Correct me if I am mistaken.

1. The Pome situation only exists because you hammered prematurely. This is entrapment, etc.

2. You can fairly complain about me not voting Katsu. The reason is the same as with Pome, though; I take forever to vote or change my vote (in part because I hate premature hammers).

3. With 1 and 2, the hypocrisy you allude to does not exist (unless you wanna compare MPR quickhammering scum to your quickhammering townPome, which isn't really quite hypocrisy as MPR's behavior has no bearing on my attitudes about the game).

4. You know my town meta, so it is my view that you should logically accept (1) and (2), unless you want to argue that I sneakily did something normatively scummy (i.e. tentative voting) as scum in conflict with my actual scum meta, which is bogus, because behaving in a scummy fashion invites suspicion from players who don't know my meta already, and I am too much of a weenie for that. [/self-meta] [/WIFOM] <--- But this is still valid. You have to posit absurd and unnecessary machinations otherwise.

Yes, the reason I think you are the off-vezok scum is because you've set up mislynches ("Pom and Kat were town") and have an incriminating voting history (only lynching town -- which technically doesn't really apply to my slot either way, so your hypocrisy claim is a little sketchy on its own, but I'm letting that one slide due to 1-4 above being adequate to address your issue).

@ camn -- You should not postulate a chainsaw from MBF while simultaneously using NP-Iec to explain events. If you try to explain things to yourself that way, the probability that you are mistaken is literally 100%.

MBF makes no sense, though. I think he was saying I was scum, like, last night sometime?

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: Oh, nevermind. Before he just postulated a Iec-camn scumteam before. Which is still weird from my PoV, but it means there isn't a new contradiction.

[camn]

Literally 100% of people in the game of mafia are mistaken about something at some point in the game....

However, your logic is getting worse and worse as Spyrex's pressure grows.
Tar's Chainsaw Defense is an action. A move. A Tactic. ... Me saying that Mike is Chain sawing is NOT saying that Mike is scum. Just that mike is playing in a suboptimal way.
And that, my friend, is a fact. Mike's chainsaw defense of you is suboptimal.
He is doing it (i believe AS TOWN) because I have totally gotten under his skin and thrown his game straight to hell..... not because he is scum. But nonetheless, it doesn't help the town.

Now, your COUNTER chainsaw is interesting. I can't quite figure if you are defending Mike or NoPoint!

[Iecerint]

I am not saying that all errors can be avoided. However, some mistakes can be avoided. For example, even if you are sure I am not scum, I cannot be scum with both MBF and NP. Analyze the game with only one possibility in your head at a time, or you will explain away things inappropriately -- because you can't explain away NP defending me AND MBF's attack on you in this fashion in the same universe. Doing that is not just a mistake, but a logical error.

HOWEVER:

Tar's Chainsaw Defense, as I understand it, means that scum attacks town attacking a scumfriend. You appear to understand it differently. That is the source of my confusion with regard to your play.

I'm not defending either of those players; I'm critiquing how you appeared to be analyzing things (both to point it out to everyone if you are scum and to point it out to you if you are not). But your new discussion shows that there was no problem.

[camn]

Start being scummier and less reasonable please?

[SpyreX]

1. The Pome situation only exists because you hammered prematurely. This is entrapment, etc.

FFFFF

I am not a megavoter. "Ohh lordy be you hammered" is junk. Calling you parked on your town read entrapment is even more awesome.

2. You can fairly complain about me not voting Katsu. The reason is the same as with Pome, though; I take forever to vote or change my vote (in part because I hate premature hammers).

After above this is even more awesome. You take forever to vote your scum reads but a toss on vote is ok?

3. With 1 and 2, the hypocrisy you allude to does not exist (unless you wanna compare MPR quickhammering scum to your quickhammering townPome, which isn't really quite hypocrisy as MPR's behavior has no bearing on my attitudes about the game).

You are saying I'm scum, STILL, because I "pushed" two town mislynches - one of which you were all FOR without voting and the other you were ON.

This is the cognitive dissonance. No amount of playing ohh look I had reasons yo changes this.

4. You know my town meta, so it is my view that you should logically accept (1) and (2), unless you want to argue that I sneakily did something normatively scummy (i.e. tentative voting) as scum in conflict with my actual scum meta, which is bogus, because behaving in a scummy fashion invites suspicion from players who don't know my meta already, and I am too much of a weenie for that. [/self-meta] [/WIFOM] <--- But this is still valid. You have to posit absurd and unnecessary machinations otherwise.

Jesus. MY METAS YO.

(I am not answering anything else in this game that involves the word meta. The simple fact you are pushing this claiming to know both your scum and town metas is sooo amazingly bad I have no words).

As an aside, AND CAMN YOU PAY ATTENTION:

3. With 1 and 2, the hypocrisy you allude to does not exist (unless you wanna compare MPR quickhammering scum to your quickhammering townPome, which isn't really quite hypocrisy

as MPR's behavior has no bearing on my attitudes about the game)

.

Yes, the reason I think you are the off-vezok scum is because you've set up mislynches ("Pom and Kat were town")

and have an incriminating voting history

(only lynching town -- which technically doesn't really apply to my slot either way, so your hypocrisy claim is a little sketchy on its own, but I'm letting that one slide due to 1-4 above being adequate to address your issue).

So, MPR AINT ME but I'm incriminating because I've only lynched town (which means you're sure taking credit for that MPR scum hammer otherwise you've only lynched town too well played).

[nopointinactingup]

Start being scummier and less reasonable please?

Are you serious??? Iec is not acting scummy but you want him to be scummy to be able to push for his lynch. So basically you don't care if Iec is town or scum you just want his lynch to save yourself. It is ridiculous why more people aren't voting you.

[Iecerint]

IIRC, you had concerns about her that I thought were not valid, but then I asked her a question about one of them. Time passed without her answering, so I asked her again and voted her. As such, it wasn't "toss-on" vote. That's not to mention that I was the first vote on her, so you shouldn't mistake it as a toss-on vote in any case. I suppose I could've dropped my vote after Dizzy replaced in (!), but she was a little sketchy, anyway, and I wasn't sure I wanted to change my vote yet.

I wasn't voting anyone when Katsu was lynched, so I'm not sure what you're going for there. If you're making a contrast with Pome, the situations are very different. I voted for Pome to get her to answer my question, not to lynch her.

I vehemently disputed your Pome/Katsu dichotomy over and over and over. Claiming otherwise is bogus. I know I explicitly asked you about it at least 3 times, because there was no clear dependency between the two players.

(I am not answering anything else in this game that involves the word meta. The simple fact you are pushing this claiming to know both your scum and town metas is sooo amazingly bad I have no words).

This is a statement evaluating my attitude toward the game. It does not evaluate my alignment. I hope everyone watching this interaction understands that. Moreover, SX KNOWS from past experience that I ALWAYS self-meta as town. He's being a playstyle policeman, not a scumhunter. This is scummy.

Also, the WIFOMmeta argument he alludes to here is totally valid IMO. SX is ignoring it on categorical grounds because he can't deal with it on any other basis.

[saporovirus]

I WILL BE CONTRIBUTING TONIGHT GUYS.

[camn]

I actually wasn't being serious, NP. I just have the ability to divorce my feelings about a player from my thoughts about their alignment.

For instance...
I like ice. I like his play. However, I think he is scum... And I will be slightly sad if/when he dies, regardless of alignment.
Unlike you.
I don't like you. I don't think much of your play.. And I think you are scum. I will dance a dance of joy on your grave.

You see how it works?

[SpyreX]

This is a statement evaluating my attitude toward the game. It does not evaluate my alignment. I hope everyone watching this interaction understands that. Moreover, SX KNOWS from past experience that I ALWAYS self-meta as town. He's being a playstyle policeman, not a scumhunter. This is scummy.

When I'm home you'll get the full version but lets just make this one clear:

I'm not evaluating your attitude. I am evaluating what you have chosen to use as a 'defense' for my main issues: meta.

To preface this with an actual piece of meta - you're not a bad player. Thus, the simple fact you are self-aware of what you would call 'meta' means, by nature, that meta is worthless. FURTHER (AND THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART) utilizing said 'meta' for a defense isn't just worthless - it IS scummy. Meta isn't a shield that you can hide behind.

And this new business said above really prefaces how amazing this dissonance is:

I, SpyreX, not SpyreX-town or SpyreX-scum, hate meta. Always have, always will. I am, in fact, one of the most vocal about how overused it is - ESPECIALLY as a defense.

So this, like much else, is trying to have the cake and eat the cake:

Ice is exonerated by his 'meta' whereas it is actively being ignored to push on me being scum for it.
I am scum for pushing 'only town wagons' one of which Ice was on and the other was his number one scum pick.
My Pom hammer is evil and his predecessors is awesome.

AND, even still:

I'm both not scum and scum at the same time. I am shrodingers scum.

[Iecerint]

Thus, the simple fact you are self-aware of what you would call 'meta' means, by nature, that meta is worthless.

This logic applies in most cases, but not here. The difference is that I'm not arguing that some event X makes me town (like, a certain NK choice or whatever) because of meta. That kind of thing is easy to fake. Instead, I'm arguing that patterns of events going back 2 days make me town based on meta. It's POSSIBLE that I deliberately played to my town meta to fool everyone (by doing something -- being tentative with votes -- that appears scummy to most people, even! so this would be an even MORE silly gamble), but it's EXTREMELY unlikely.

If you agree with my characterization of my meta, the only reasonable thing to do is to accept that I am town. Otherwise, you have to believe in a mass conspiracy.

You *may* dispute my characterization of my meta, but that is not what anyone who knows how I play has done so far (NP, Elli, SX would qualify).

FURTHER (AND THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART) utilizing said 'meta' for a defense isn't just worthless - it IS scummy. Meta isn't a shield that you can hide behind.

Incorrect. It is verifiably not scummy when I do it (i.e. in the sense that it doesn't indicate that I am scum). You can do a statistical analysis of when I use self-meta. It is a towntell for me.

You can say that meta isn't a compelling argument, or that you disagree that meta should play into analysis, but that is different from a claim that I am more likely to be scum because I self-meta'd.

I have never claimed that MPR's hammer was awesome. I just can't speak to why he did what he did. THAT SAID -- at least he hammered (I think?) after claims and (I know!) hit scum.

Your other two points have totally ignored my responses to them, so I'll drop that and let other players evaluate my responses on their own.

I'm not sure what your last line is about. Assuming I'm understanding correctly -- I don't know for sure whether you're scum. Only scum knows that. I don't know why you appear to imply that my lack of certainty about your alignment would make me scum.

To make my scumreads perfectly clear, this is where I am at this point:

<NP, camn>
<MBF, SX>

One scum in each group.

[SpyreX]

You're still doing it. You're still backhanded going OHH HES SCUM FOR IGNORING MY META when, again, its retarded.

But, you know what. Fire with fire.

Give me every one of your scum games. Every one.

If, in all those games, I find ONE reference to you talking about your 'meta' just go ahead and vote yourself. If there is none I'll acquiesce the point. Hell, I'll vote for whomever you want.

Backpedaling in 3,2,1

[saporovirus]

I'm both not scum and scum at the same time. I am shrodingers scum.

What is this referring to?

Now, your COUNTER chainsaw is interesting. I can't quite figure if you are defending Mike or NoPoint!

I don't know if it's accurate to refer to a perceived flaw in arguments (MBF is chainsawing Iec, but Iec +NP = scum, as Iec saw it) as a chainsaw. It doesn't necessarily amount to a defense of either, it just points out the contradiction.

[Iecerint]

I talk about meta in literally every game. I also self-meta in a lot of them. I always do it honestly, though, so I'm much more likely to self-meta as town.

My games are all in my wiki. Alignment is listed.

As I just indicated, yeah, you can find evidence of self-meta as scum (let alone reference to "meta" by itself -- that kind of heuristic is just laughable).

And in case anyone misses it -- it should be obvious that this isn't backpedaling, because I would have to be backpedaling away from claims I never made. The only player to claim that I have never alluded to meta as scum is SpyreX.

[camn]

Thus, the simple fact you are self-aware of what you would call 'meta' means, by nature, that meta is worthless....... Meta isn't a shield that you can hide behind.

Incorrect. It is verifiably not scummy when I do it (i.e. in the sense that it doesn't indicate that I am scum). You can do a statistical analysis of when I use self-meta. It is a towntell for me.

YOu are totally proving Spyrex correct here.
The simple fact that you KNOW what your town-meta is makes any META-argument you make wifomed out of towntell land.
YOu might argue it is a NULL tell.. but arguing it is a TOWN tell is bogus bogus bogus.

[SpyreX]

Incorrect. It is verifiably not scummy when I do it (i.e. in the sense that it doesn't indicate that I am scum). You can do a statistical analysis of when I use self-meta. It is a towntell for me.\\

I talk about meta in literally every game. I also self-meta in a lot of them. I always do it honestly, though, so I'm much more likely to self-meta as town.

ROPOS LOS BURNINATION

[Iecerint]

It is a towntell because given that I have done it, I am more likely to be town than the background probability. That is the definition of a towntell. Hence, it is a towntell. The reason this is slipping you up is that it is atypical.

You are incorrect about /self-meta being categorically useless. As I explain in the first sentence of 963, it is SOMETIMES useless, but not always. I've spelled out why this case is different twice now, I think.

[Iecerint]

Sapo and Elli -- who do you think is scum?

[nopointinactingup]

@Camn: Backpedalling is not good for your scummy health. Your over-explanation again sounds like you're trying to equivocate yourself out of trouble.
@Spyrex: Your argument is fallacious. You can't attribute the fact that Iec self meta as scum once to the fact that he's scum not for self meta-ing, especially if he has self meta before as town. Camn, on the other hand, accepts that Iec's self meta-ing is null and still sheeps your case on Iec, which is terribly scummy.

[DrippingGoofball]

MECHANICS QUESTION

I am not clear... do light sleepers have to stay in their rooms to see who is there? Or can they hide.. AND see?

They have to stay in their rooms.

[DrippingGoofball]

Your twenty-third VOTECOUNT was hiding in the meth lab.

camn (2): mikeburnfire, nopointinactingup
Iecerint (1): SpyreX, camn

With 7 alive and seeking, it takes 4 to lynch.

DEADLINE Friday November 26, 9:00 PM EST.

[saporovirus]

Scum are camn/ spyrex.