Consulmaker II: the Pyrrhic War - Game over.

[Primate]

Vote Jack

for Tribune. I believe it is beneficial to have a Tribune who will actually threaten to use his abilities, and to me, that's either Chamber or Jack. I may be missing others who would do similar, I've not been to involved in mafiascum for a while, but I have faith in those two to do not go against their personal beliefs for the sake of the town, which I reckon is a good thing for a tribune. Voting Jack specifically because I feel like he has a better hit/miss ratio on scumhunting.

[Primate]

Unvote

Vote Chamber.

Missed Jacks post earlier. I don't agree on the play he's suggesting there and the suggestion is he wouldn't be what I want. The threat of a tribune cancelling the lynch needs to be there on a day 1. You need people who have responsibility for info. Removing that by saying they are expected to be inactive is a bad idea, imho.

[Primate]

Also this fundamental misread of someone page 2 should be testament to how much I suck at mafia nowadays.

[Primate]

Ok, so I misread what jack was saying apparantly, think I get the meaning now. It's the same argument but with consuls, and I wouldn't have done it, but I get he wasn't talking about tribunes.

I don't know what you mean.

Another strategy thought: best picks in the future may very well be scummy-VI'ish type players (or at least one). People who are easy mislynch targets for scum and who might reveal info in their choices.

Agree with this though. Obviously you have to be careful with it, but not a bad tactic if we have room to do it.

[Primate]

That's a legitimate point. I agree that people losing any idea their votes are important would kill things a little activitywise. I played a game like this once and the way i remember dealing with it was by playing the game straight and being much harder on lurkers or anyone who showed a sign of disinterest, but that is a weak solution, cause people didn't really take to it like their votes mattered like they would in a real game either, and it required a crapload of work.

It just seems a shame to have these roles that can veto lynches and have them lose the responsibility for doing it because earlier in the game it was concensus decided they shouldn't do it. Possibly the middle ground here is to have all the veto-able players explain why they didn't veto it previous lynch, but the problem with that is that that kind of thing is going to benefit the scums cause it is too easy to pick on the day after against a weak town in late game. You get what I mean?

[Primate]

I think they are both probably town, and more that we try to figure out which one of the two is actually the consulmaker we help the scum. A gambit was run for cover, let's use it whilst we still have some ambiguity there.

Even aside from that, I don't see the benefit of us killing one of the two yet, it's going to become obvious which one of the two is consulmaker over the next few days, why even take the small chance that we hit the wrong one? The only

[Primate]

EBODP:

real downside is that we may have to override the consulmakers choice later if things get remain ambiguous .

[Primate]

But we'll always have that 50%, today, tomorrow, whenever. At some point, based on choices, it's going to become clear that one of them isn't the consulmaker. Deal with it then, when we don't have a chance of killing a townie.

[Primate]

I just think it's such a stupid scum play that it has to be town poorly planned town gambit.

Why would a scum out himself to kill a mod-confirmed town consulmaker who would just be replaced the next day? Both these players have played before and I kind of assume they didn't take retard pills before joining up here. The only thing I see that makes even slight sense is ribwitch as scum being terrified of jack and trying to knock out a strong consulmaker, but I don't really believe that's whats happening.

[Primate]

In my defense that actually worked out ok and there was only post between me saying it and explicitly saying I was lying. That said, it was still a bad play in the MS environment, and I wouldn't do it again.

[Primate]

Yeah, it's the kind of plan I had in mind if it's still an issue after a few days, except I was considering a similar plan, but with two people who are generally agreed to be pro-town who aren't consulmakers. So there's one guy that rib needs to target and Jack cannot target, and vise versa. Whichever ones lying will insist he did target it, but for all intents and purposes he'd be caught in a lie.

Which plan you go for mostly depends on where the you think the scum are, imho.

That said, sens, I think you're missing that if the scum nightkill the other consulmaker N1, then we could potentially have a d2 with scum dictator, and tribunes can only stop one lynch, so he could essentially lynch whoever he wants. So assuming worst, it's D2 townlynch for D3 scumlynch.

[Primate]

Chesskid, are you stupid are something? The reason that people (other than yourself) aren't voting for themselves as tribune is, whilst it is technically the right play, it just doesn't work in a game like because if everyone votes for themselves, we are never going to achieve consensus and the game will die on d1 due to lurkership. Voting for someone who isn't yourself on D1 is a given due to the way the game will work, and this should be considered an obvious fact. By anyone who thinks about it.

[Primate]

You're right that it's a good thing to ask for a rationale (and to be honest, I don't like a lowell tribune either), it's just that you're phrasing it in a way that suggests you want an explanation as to why he isn't voting himself (which is a bad play). Asking people why they aren't doing [bad play xxxx] is a bit pointless. You really just wanted to ask why he isn't doing it.

[Primate]

*why he 'is' doing it

[Primate]

Uh, it only takes until D3 under worst case conditions, and so does your suggested plan.

The more I think about your plan, the more I prefer it to mine and sens. You lose the single free consul choice from my plan, but I quite like the fact it gives a much higher chance of two consuls than mine or sens does. There's also the fact that if both consulmakers are town, it's a very strong play.

Assuming we randomize the groups, I'm up for that.

[Primate]

Actually, It's pretty much a certainty under sens plan isn't it, not a 'worst case', ignore me on the first line there.

[Primate]

I'm not a fan of this idea, since it would involve guaranteeing that at least one of the consuls tomorrow is scum. If you're insisting on not allowing either one of us to die today, I would propose this alternative: everyone divides themselves up into two groups. I will guarantee that the consuls tomorrow are one person from each group.

how about dividing everyone in two groups A and B
and you choosing both consuls out of A and Jack choosing both consuls out of B?
that way even if one consul dies, we still know who of you is the real consulmaker.


PS:

FoS: chesskid

, for his nonsense-attack on me.

This is a great idea, and doesn't take until D3 to kill one of the fakes. Makes me think Sens is scum trying to drag out offing one of his teammates.

I'm not such a big fan of this idea, since it leads to the question of how the groups will be split up. Besides, I really don't see the downside to killing one of them for sure on D3, with the bonus of added info from a Scumconsul.

We are not going to get any information we can use from a confirmed scum consul day 2. It will all be absolutely suspect.

And I think the split has to be random. Anything else just opens a huge can of worms. That said, I'm not sure how we're meant to do that without dicetags (I just looked, they've not been included in the new forum yet, and people are saying this is a good thing because they are a provable randomiser, I kind of agree). Possibly the way to do it is to get both consulmakers to agree on a randomish method (alphabetically by username, signup order), that way at know for sure that we've got one non-scum helping decide.

OMGUS is a hackneyed buzzword, not a scumtell.

It contains a lot of things under its umbrella that are scumtells though. Couple of big ones can be called OMGUS. Don't think what happened between Nath and Chess there specifically was of any particular note though.

[Primate]

I'm not interested in the method.

Let's talk about how lowell and porochaz are scummy.

I don't like chesskid either.

I actually think lowell and chesskid been ok.

But then I suck at mafia sooo.

Why am I not surprised that Jack is less interested in doing this now that it's becoming harder for scum to use it to their advantage?

Yeah, that felt like a positioning move.

[Primate]

chesskid's arguement isn't this sophisticated, though. It's just a vague dismissal of Nat with these meaningless five letters and he expects us to find meaning in them. Whenever someone doesn't clearly guide us through why we should think someone else is scum, that seems indicative of acting to me.

To me, chesskids looking to start an argument with someone. He's throwing around subpar arguments, but it's because he's trying to scrap, not to intentionally mislead. I don't really have a problem with that.

[Primate]

To me, chesskids looking to start an argument with someone. He's throwing around subpar arguments, but it's because he's trying to scrap, not to intentionally mislead. I don't really have a problem with that.

mmmm, I disagree. If chesskid were trying to have a productive argument (scrap), I think he would make more of an effort to say something that people could actually debate over.

That depends entirely on whether he had something that people could actually debate over, I suppose.

[Primate]

You agree it's not genuine, but why is "trying to scrap" townish?

It draws attention to the player and can get out of your control quickly. It's risky, mainly.

And you misread me, I'm not saying he's necessarily putting on an act or anything, could be genuine, could be tactic, could be bits of both. I don't know the player well enough to say what he's doing in that regard.

[Primate]

If they are both scum faking and running a joint gambit I will eat my own head.

[Primate]

I just don't see it. It's the same kind of gambit where you have two scum claiming confirmed mason D1 and how often do you see that or similar? It's even worse in this case because there is a confirmed town role out there who can confirm in thread that they are lying. If I see evidence that makes me suspect, I'll go for it, but honestly, things like this are so outside my view of "things scum do", that for all intents and purposes I consider it impossible. There's obviously some tactic going on, but realistically, it's not that one.

Then again, I suck at mafia soooo...

[Primate]

Rib's gambit is actually clever.

Why?

[Primate]

What is the goal of information except to catch scum? Hoarding Information for information's own sake is a really bad way of looking at it. I also don't like it in this way because it adds a second goal that scum can appeal to try and get across the idea that they are town whilst easing the burden on themselves of finding scum. "Oh, sens didn't get scum, it's ok, he was going for info."

I'm not saying it's a bad idea to go for information, it's obviously not, but never use the fact that you're doing it as an excuse for not doing what you should be doing. Plus, hitting scum is normally the most informative thing you can do anyway, because that's where all the connections are, so realistically there's no real reason to for it as a main tactic either.

[Primate]

Primate do you still think chesskid is town?

unvote tribune

Yeah, pretty sure.

[Primate]

Where the f#$% are all these chesskid town reads coming from? He's pointing out a bunch of nulltells-at-best and expecting us to find them scummy.

Not townish. At all.

I don't think he's expecting much at all at the minute, he's just being dramatic. His most recent post is the most notable example of this.

PS: Rabies, what would your attitude to your responsibilities be if you were made tribune?

[Primate]

His suspicion is just omgus I guess. Well that's that taken care of...

You seem a tad disaffected.

[Primate]

In the context I was meaning it to say rebellious, unhappy with the way the game was going.

I don't have a problem with multiple votes as such. I think it changes the game, but I don't think either side too much better or worse. Multiple votes is slightly better in the game context, I just don't know if it's worth the ballache of getting people to play differently with this in mind and having to read them when it's done. I suppose it depends how it's implemented though, and mainly, how deeply you attempt to leverage the benefits. I don't really care, tbh, it's voteless, people express themselves the way they want to express themlselves, imho.

[Primate]

Information to give future executions a higher chance of success.

lynching scum > whatever information you might get from a town lynch.

Strongly disagree. If it pleases you, look up Martyr Mafia. I suicidebombed Scum N0 in a 10:2 set-up. Town went on to lose, due to not having any informtion or links from the dead Scum.

Dram, you know you love me. Besides, I'm immune to being executed today. I might as well make use of that by doing stuff that I believe work, but that I'd never get away with in a normal game.

That's only really a problem if you get rid of all the scum bar one, early. This is a large game, we have a few. You're generalizing based on a specific situation that doesn't apply.

[Primate]

FYI, my choice, if not chamber, would be rabies because I think it would be beneficial to give him a platform, irrespective of alignment. Also more than happy with Chamber, obviously.

[Primate]

Hey.

You know you're spamming when c.e.s comes down on you.

Has said zip today except talk about the consulmaker thing. Pretends to be semi-outraged about the idea that this day would be cut short. Someone who was actually disturbed by the idea of discussion being cut off so quick would have been actually scumhunting.

You're right but honestly in this instance I think it's a null tell.

I think sens actually comes out of this whole thing relatively well, tbh. I also liked Nathanael trying to get info out of chesskid before he vetoed.

[Primate]

I've started reading where I left it, but somethings just come up. I'll post when I get back in the house, it'll probably be a few hours. Sorry for the inactivity in the first place, once I'm back up to speed it shouldn't happen again.

[Primate]

I like making Jack a tribune. Good idea people…except you, Primate. I don't care if you don't like Jack's plan - he's as conftown as we can get this early in the game, and yet you insist on putting Chamber on Tribune. FoS: Primate

You set yourself right later in the post, so I won't do it.

Like paramas catchup post.

I would not be opposed to an inhim execution.

Where did this come from?

...REALLY. We're really going to go there, scot?

Technically correct, the best type of correct.

You say you forgot about the game but know about the "chesskid stuff"?

I agree. It's oddly blatant in it's way though. Ditto w/derp. isoing the mod is a bit weird yeah.

Don't like Feysal. Katsuki position feels like informed positioning. I'll go into more depth on in a few hours.

Primate (I believe) has said that it's too stupid of a move for scum to do,

I'm actually a lot more dubious about this than I was because of the way it's played out. Basically, I'm pretty sure which one of you is lying, but whoever it is hasn't been playing the gambit safely. I'll go into more detail about what I wanted to see and haven't when claims are confirmed.

Sens, if you were to fire the trigger on anyone else and it was assured to go through, who would it be?

More than happy with Powerrox

VETO: KATSUKI'S EXECUTION we are not executing Katsuki today. EXECUTE: Parama

:boggle:

Won't vote cause I don't think it matters, but I don't like scot, inhim, feysal. Reck also really need to start commenting on someone other than Dram.

Waive Veto

If I fall behind in posting like this again, feel free to execute me.[/joke[/kind of]]

[Primate]

After the day I've had today, I think I'm going nuts, but hey! A Mafia Game!

Oh hey I was wrong about powerrox, which is pretty fucking arrrgh.

Jack was the guy I thought was lying and he was! small win, yet he's still doing stupid. Ooops! Why was he lying, I don't know! Jester speculation somewhat actually legitimate cause he's been playing retarded if not. arrgh. Need to think about this when not in crazymind because he is undisputed we gonna lynch for today and I'll be very disappointed in a player as good as jack is simply fucking something up and going wacko, but hey.

Also, give ribwich a break on the consul choices, I think he picked fairly shrewdly, if a little dangerously.

That dram slip is bollocks.

FOS POWERFUL WIZARD

[quote=""Jack"]
Yes it's obvious that he picked the consuls because they were anti-jack, or else I picked them for the same reason for extra wifom, either way I agree.
[/quote]This is glorious.

[Primate]

Basically, the only reason I see for townjack to cc the consulmaker is to run cover, which is , despite what some may say, easy to do and it'd work well, however, based on his conduct today and most of yesterday, that clearly isn't what he's doing, so I'm a little at a loss. I guess what I'm saying is I suck at mafia.

@Spyrex: You hijinxin' on my radar sonnijim.

[Primate]

Jacks explanation was lacking. I don't see the advantage of taking this to last night as opposed to to coming out when the plan to restrict voting targets was revealed, a plan that forced the real consul to potentially compromise on his consul choices. The jokes thing he's suggesting was the kind of thing that I wanted from him, but the fact that I didn't notice it as that either means I suck or they were misjudged.

Solution: We execute him. If he's town, we give the comment some gravity. If he's scum, we ignore it completely.

FOS

Para's case case against nath is a little weak, tbh, maybe I'm not following it right. Ribwiches move is a very interesting one and an understandable one, I don't really mind it, though I wouldn't have done it myself.

[Primate]

Sorry, I only just got back from the new year and it's 7am and I'm drunk. I'll post properly in a few hours when I get up again.

[Primate]

Right. Dramonic coming up scum was a surprise. I speculated whether something like that was happening because it seemed odd that Dramonic went after Reck so fervently and followed it through to lynch on dubious reasons, but I never really took that thought too seriously.

Self-metas suck. It wouldn't really surprise me if both reck and dram are scum.

Notable.

It's better to drag it out. And primate there were good people on rib's list. What did you mean by "this is glorious" earlier?

That's why I said potentially compromise. I have no idea who he ideally wanted to pick. It was just the fact that if you had come out pre-night he would have had the entire pool available to him. The this is glorious thing was because I don't get why you would have, as town, picked consuls hostile to you for extra wifom. At that point you were still claiming consulmaker and it seemed an incredibly surreal thing to say, unless I missing something.

Just noticed Inhim, which has kind of a silver lining as he would have probably been on my list for today. Spyrex probably would have been on it too. Good Times.

If he and dramonic had been scum together, I'd think they'd have found some way to not bus their partner so early in game. I think I need to check the timeline, but for now I believe scotmany12 to be town.

I'd need convincing about this. Seems to me that the dram/reck thing was enough of a thing that the scum would have had a plan for bussing that other scum would be aware of. Also, I don't think scot even came out that strongly against Reck, unless I'm missing something.

This is spot on with my thought process. I am junked at dram and reck being scum together and I'm having a REAL hard time processing Jack being scum with them which makes what should have been easy money a bit harder. I'm still leaning fat hard that way but.

Yeah. It's a really ballsy play from Dram if jacks in their scumgroup. Makes me quite a bit less comfortable with Jackscum.

I won't be voting ribwich for tribune because he is consulmaker. I have no objection to his play yesterday, but think that it is not productive to have a confirmed townie in that role. If a non-consulmaker townie had made the same play yesterday, now we would have a role that is very strongly town, instead we don't, we have gained no information, and I don't think that's worth the security of having a conf town in that position at this point in the game.

if anyone wants to claim the kill, now would be a good time to do so.

Boooo.

Primate (how did he get to be a consul?)

*shrug*

Magua being scum would make the Chamber kill a bit odd considering he was swearing blind that katsuki was town, but that's semi-wifom.

P a r a m a . I s . S c u m !

Think it's unlikely.

Seriously, I don't get it. Why the hell are you people not willing to see him hang? His lie dominated D1, added absolutely nothing to anything until he's confirmed Town, and forced the Consulmaker to pick D2 Consuls from a randomized list of half the people. What in the name of Bahamut has he done to make people think he shouldn't be lynched?

Drams behaviour doesn't scan with that possibility. I'm still on the fence but to me that's enough to make it a pretty convincing grey area.

In my first ever game as scum, Primate was town and fakeclaimed cop to open, so I'm not surprised he's soft on this, but I would like to know what possible protown benefit there is here?

There wasn't any and Jack fucked it up because it was obvious from ribwiches first post that jack was lying. The protown benefit is that it obfuscates who the real consulmaker is, the rebuttal is that it obviously doesn't obfuscate it as much as not claiming in the first place. My thought was that Jack had done it as a vanilla townie and was relying on the consulmaker not to respond. I agree it was a stupid idea, but to me it made more sense as a stupid town idea.

That works equally well in reverse. It's such stupid town play that it makes more sense to be a scum gambit, relying on people making this exact argument. Or the GF gambit.

I think the difference here is that my feeling is that early game town gambits like this are more common than early game scum gambits. I don't have the figures to back that up, so I may be wrong, I just feel behaviour like this is more typically town.

It worked out ok if you discount the fact that the premature townie claim it elicited from undo allowed us to identify you for sure as the doc by the third night.

That's not a huge downside. It's a shame, and it was a bad play on both my part and undo's, but anyway.

Fonz, about the bad at mafia thing, that's mostly a joke for my own benefit. I'd quit for a while before I went to kiwiesta and joined a couple of games when I got back. I did awfully in them and haven't played at all since then, with the exception of scumchat, where me and shanba grump at each other for a long while about how we've just become bad at the game since we used to play a lot more.

I'll have a list of people I will kill, veto, etc later. I suspect most of thoughts I have are outdated ones based on things that happened D1 with sprinklings of stuff that happened D2, so I really need to refresh my mind.

[Primate]

PS: primate, would you mind formatting your walls a little better in the code? like putting quotes in a new line. It makes it much easier to divide it into blocks.

Sure. that's a carryover from the old forums, where, there was a difference and iirc, my way took up less vertical space in the final post. Doesn't make a difference here though apparently so will stop, apologies.

mind clarifying your stance?

I think the fact Jack did what he did was town, as was his interaction with Dram and D2. I think personally his behaviour has been scummy with regards to his gambit and there are a few things about it that I find dubious. Basically I think Jack would be a fantastic information lynch, and there's a fair chance of him being scum, but I am unhappy with lynching him because I wouldn't be at all surprised if he came up town. I'm also unhappy with leaving him around as well, though because I think really he's kind of tainted by WIFOM at this point becuause most of his previous behavior was commited under a pretext and that's difficult for me to try and read properly. Basically I really don't know what to do with Jack at this point.

do you think a non-confirmed player (even if town) would ever dare to make such a move? would you have made such a move? do you think it was the best possible move in ribwich's position?

I would hope a non-confirmed townie would make such a move if they were happy about doing so. I do however think that if a non-confirmed townie would do so then they would need to provide more of an explanation than Ribwich did, and they would obviously have to defend their choices and possibly take pressure, and to some people that might be a deterrent. I wouldn't have made such a move and didn't (I was the other tribune at the time). I do not believe that it was the correct play at the time, but I believe that in retrospect it was, and that's the way it needs to be judged. I wouldn't have done the same thing, but that was my mistake, and his behavior shouldn't be judged lacking because he got a better read and I misplayed.

this + other things => scot get's back to null.

What's your reasoning for reading it this way? (Not that it's a bad thing, just curious)

[Primate]

I was in the middle of deciding what to do with all of the players, this obviously pushes jack up the list and I'll do him now.

[Primate]

I will waive my veto.

The biggest reason I was thinking Jack was town were his interactions with Dram and Reck, but honestly they don't actually hold up that well under examination. Jack attacks Reck whilst it's looking like he's going down, it was less Drams choice than you'd think, Recks certainty after the turn around (this may be Reck being Reck).

I think that Jack has been generally disinterested and weak this game, and I think the game that he linked actually highlighted this and that his behaviour was quite different despite similar context.

I waive my veto becuase I believe Jack is probably scum.

[Primate]

I know I said that Jack was probably scum, but I was still pretty relieved to actually be right there. Nice to occasionally not be absolutely terrible.

I remember liking Lowell D1. I thought that he had a somewhat flippant attitude that made him look better, but I must confess I've been generally ignoring him becuase he hasn't been doing much, and unlike how I would treat it normally I know this is typical Lowell behaviour. I also think that his detached attitude around the Jack vetoing speaks in his favour, though I am wondering whether that actually speaks against him because he commented at all, and normally not commenting is Lowells disinterested stance. Also the "xreck and lowell" bit in jacks last post is pretty damn wifom. Dram's "Lowell and Parama will not be lynched today." is also interesting because it feels casual, but drams probably good enough to make a post like that off-hand.

Maybe my point wasn't getting across. I'm saying we should execute Lowell because in addition to him being generally useless there's a good chance that he's an SK.

I think it unlikely an SK lowell missed two thirds of his kills due to lack of attention on the game. Particularly last night, he posted on the 5th here, the 8th in another thread and again here the 10th. I think you have to assume he's present.

That, combined with scum knowing that there's a second killing role and that it targeted them, makes me think bussing scum would be thinking twice about lynching Jack D3.

Spyrex was thinking twice. He very explicitly had to be convinced to lynch Jack over other people and if Fonz and Sens hadn't harrangued him that's probably how it would have gone done. The other thing to consider is that, in this game Jack *will* be going down sooner or later and the last/one of the last remaining scum can't be seen in a situation where earlier in the game they obviously steered a lynch away from Jack. It was the same reason Dram lynched Reck, because she was forced into doing so by the context of the game. All the above also applies to me (in a slightly lesser fashion). But I think you need to take yesterdays lynch with a grain of salt, though that may be because I was suspicious of him before, so I don't know.

Also I really don't think Nath is scum.

[Primate]

Vote Magua for Tribune

[Primate]

Meta may have changed since I was playing a lot but generally SKs can forsake kills if they want and it'd be very rare for a mod to randomise it.

[Primate]

That you'd veto Parama is kinda irrelevant, because I'm not executing him today. I've still not seen anything that overrides the strong town read I got off chesskid.

Primate, if you were consul today, who would you kill?

Lowell. There's not enough there to read and he's not going to be replaced and there's not enough from other scums to get a read on him that way. That said I'd definitely be open to last ditch attempts at content from him, depending on what the motives behind it appear to be. The other thing I think I need to do is a simple game to game meta look at him to judge activity and interest across games, as I think that's a good way of getting a decent answer on those players who just don't like to be scum.

In terms of people I have a read on as scum it'd probably be Feysal, though I'd need to reread specifically with a view towards killing him before acting on it. Feysal was the person I probably would have pushed for execution yesterday if you/sens hadn't forced coming to an opinion on Jack.

The sheer volume of muttering and no bite on lowell makes me think he's town as well and scum can't decide if its worth taking a real bite.

No-ones really going to be baying for blood because he hasn't done enough of anything to get riled up/create plausible scum case about.

@Fonz: You seem up on the meta. What's the current general attitude towards trying to lynch lurkers? Is bringing it up seen as a scumtell that some scum may want to avoid?

[Primate]

Fonz, seeing as you're around, I'll be interested to know if in your opinion, the lynch of Lowell was the right thing for the town do and a convienent situation for you to do something internally consistent with your own beliefs or something that you felt happy pulling off against a town you feel should have objected. I had my ups and downs this game, but the decision to support a lynch of lowell was easily the one I am most unsure as to whether it was the right decision.

I think the town could have won this if Fonz was the one who commited the kill and died N5. Not saying they would have, think scum were still more likely to have won, but that was the luck we needed to get at the end, I reckon.