ATHF Mafia OVER(roles and whatnot revealed)

[implosion]

Not requoting to avoid giant textblocks.

I hold him to a higher standard because he's made oh... 7-8 times as many posts as me? And yet he's only given opinions on a few people, and only after being prodded to.

And what the hell do you mean by me just "posting for fun?" It's a

mafia game.

how the hell am I posting for fun? I'm not unvoting because my suspicion that he's jester isn't strong enough. Please actually read what I say, and don't just interpret it how you feel like interpreting it.

As for that not being all he said... funfact: he still said it. And he hasn't given any real comments on my case on him since that. He's essentially given up against me, as far as I can tell.

The number of posts is mostly irrelevant.
You are overestimating the quality of your argument if you think he is trying to get himself hung by not answering your question.
Cherry picking quotes is scummy.

First thing you said: so you're saying if person A makes 100 posts and 10 with good scumhunting, and person B makes 10 posts all of which contain good scumhunting, person A is better or the same? It isn't a game of quantity, it's a game of quality; I've done just as much as podium or more in much fewer posts. Hence, the number of posts is relevant. This would essentially be the difference between an active lurk (many posts, little content) versus a non-active lurk (few posts, but there is content within those posts). The first is scummy. The second is not.

I'm not "overestimating the quality of my argument." I was confused about why he seems to be purposefully avoiding questions (NOT JUST MINE) and the thought came to mind that it could be jester behavior.

And how the hell am I cherry picking quotes? Are you implying that by quoting something I'm automatically cherry picking? HOW DO YOU NOT THINK IT'S RELEVANT THAT HE FUCKING GAVE UP AGAINST ME? And speaking of which, do you have any opinion about that post, or are you just going to dismiss it as irrelevant because I'm the one that brought it up?

[podium123456]

It isn't a game of quantity, it's a game of quality; I've done just as much as podium or more in much fewer posts. Hence, the number of posts is relevant. This would essentially be the difference between an active lurk (many posts, little content) versus a non-active lurk (few posts, but there is content within those posts).

With all due respect, you are an idiot to suggest that i am in any way shape or form an active lurker... if that's what you are doing.

I have posted more than you because i have been under heavy attack from many people in this game, and you haven't... that's common sense. The number of posts IS irrelevant, because both of us are not operating under the same conditions.

Reasoning such as this is why i am not wasting my time getting into an argument with you... i've already seen what that would evolve into.

HOW DO YOU NOT THINK IT'S RELEVANT THAT HE FUCKING GAVE UP AGAINST ME? And speaking of which, do you have any opinion about that post, or are you just going to dismiss it as irrelevant because I'm the one that brought it up?

what you don't realize was that that post was highlighting the fact that you were talking about an unrelated topic with that comment, when taken in context of the discussion we were having.

i already previously explained it to you once... and then you turned around and did it again.

i used up all of my 'try to get this knucklehead to understand what is actually going on' time on nacho, so i dont have any more to spare for you.

sorry.

[Zdenek]

Not requoting to avoid giant textblocks.

I hold him to a higher standard because he's made oh... 7-8 times as many posts as me? And yet he's only given opinions on a few people, and only after being prodded to.

And what the hell do you mean by me just "posting for fun?" It's a

mafia game.

how the hell am I posting for fun? I'm not unvoting because my suspicion that he's jester isn't strong enough. Please actually read what I say, and don't just interpret it how you feel like interpreting it.

As for that not being all he said... funfact: he still said it. And he hasn't given any real comments on my case on him since that. He's essentially given up against me, as far as I can tell.

The number of posts is mostly irrelevant.
You are overestimating the quality of your argument if you think he is trying to get himself hung by not answering your question.
Cherry picking quotes is scummy.

First thing you said: so you're saying if person A makes 100 posts and 10 with good scumhunting, and person B makes 10 posts all of which contain good scumhunting, person A is better or the same? It isn't a game of quantity, it's a game of quality; I've done just as much as podium or more in much fewer posts. Hence, the number of posts is relevant. This would essentially be the difference between an active lurk (many posts, little content) versus a non-active lurk (few posts, but there is content within those posts). The first is scummy. The second is not.

I'm not "overestimating the quality of my argument." I was confused about why he seems to be purposefully avoiding questions (NOT JUST MINE) and the thought came to mind that it could be jester behavior.

And how the hell am I cherry picking quotes? Are you implying that by quoting something I'm automatically cherry picking? HOW DO YOU NOT THINK IT'S RELEVANT THAT HE FUCKING GAVE UP AGAINST ME? And speaking of which, do you have any opinion about that post, or are you just going to dismiss it as irrelevant because I'm the one that brought it up?

Preview edits:

Stop posting garbage. What Podium said. Also, if someone posts everyday, and has ten good posts, that's fine, and if someone posts 100 times in the same time span, and posts a pile of drivel with some good posts mixed in, that's not all that good. Neither of these cases border on the different types of lurking because they both involve people posting content. I'm not interested in continuing to discuss this point in the thread, because it has nothing to do with the game.

You are cherry picking quotes because you are focusing on the fact that Podium said that you'll just have to trust him. When he just said, a moment before:

It means that from my point of view, the majority of what was going on in the thread was attacks on me, that i was arguing against... so i had to look to other cases that were being made, to look for anything scummy... of which there weren't many.

which should deal with one of your questions. If you aren't satisfied with the answer, fine, but then talk about that instead. What you've chosen to do, is focus on the fact that he made the comment about trusting him.

You've been going on and on about Podium ignoring a question that you've asked him several times. If you are talking about your point of view question, I have to ask, why are you being intentionally obtuse? Do you seriously believe that we don't have different points of view. Or are you hoping that he'll just come out and say that he is looking at things from a scum point of view?

Here is a question for you: why haven't you been concerned with VibeBox communicating with you in thread?

[podium123456]

just in case there is any confusion, when i said 'you should stop. just trust me' i was implying that what you were writing was making you look foolish, and that you should stop... as in: trust me, you should stop.

not 'just trust me, i'm not scum'.

[implosion]

This back-and-forth is getting nowhere.

Here is a question for you: why haven't you been concerned with VibeBox communicating with you in thread?

If you mean that strange, incoherent thing he said earlier... I don't know what he meant. I asked him, and he replied with more gibberish. I haven't been concerned about it because I have no clue what it means, I asked him, and I doubt I'm going to get anything coherent about it.

just in case there is any confusion, when i said 'you should stop. just trust me' i was implying that what you were writing was making you look foolish, and that you should stop... as in: trust me, you should stop.

not 'just trust me, i'm not scum'.

If other people agree it was making me look "foolish" then fine; but if it wasn't (and it wasn't, considering how you were avoiding so many questions) then it still doesn't make sense that you didn't respond to anything I said.

More people need to talk.

[VasudeVa]

Here you let VibeBox off the hook really easily.

Your ISO 9 is okay, but it is almost IIoA. It certainly contains some analysis, but a lot of just deals with general reactions to fate and playing with fate.

Wrong on both accounts. I did not let VibeBox 'off the hook'. I basically warned him about his very easily misunderstood posting style.

I usually dislike 'misrep' accusation, but the second part here is 100% misrep. There was a beefy load of analysis in my ISO 9.
It includes:
1. Podium Town with reasons
2. Nachoscum with reasons
3. Debunking multiple attacks by GWscum
4. Meta-warnings on Fate
5. Debunking Seacore's reason for voting.

If that was IIoA, I'd like to see what a not-IIoA post is.

First of all, it is neither lazy nor opportunistic. First of all, I had to read through 10 pages since I haven't been keeping up. Second of all, he looked the scummiest to me. I had just come back into the game - how is me voting for him opportunistic?

How is 'His reaction is somewhat scummy IMO' not lazy? (Which was your comment on podium in your whole 241, others are lame questions and lame assertions that barely explain anything)? How is a vote hop onto the largest wagon with you barely doing anything to make sure of your read on podium not oppurtunistic?

And also there's this little gem here:

If he summed up the thread exactly as you would have, then why the hell did you never mention a thing about Ghost or Nacho? And why does him summing up the thread as you would have make him town, anyway? He did something you would have done. Cool. He called you town. Cool. And this makes him town to you because...?

You aren't even paying attention to the guy you are attacking. Podium's #314 said I was town because of my attention to detail and my perseverence in swimming through the muck. You didn't even disagree with his reasoning there! You simply ignored it.

Zdenek is right, you are cherry picking quotes.

Scum not reading the thread *cough*

----

I gave an explanation. The reasoning that I had been thinking already existed in the thread. Maybe I didn't go in-depth into explaining myself but I think the reasons I voted him were clear.

Sure you have! You've agreed to shit reasoning already available in thread! Wanna know why I think GW and Nacho are scummy? Because they started this shit reasoning. I am giving lotss of heat for it and now you too are burning with them.

I criticized your post... without criticizing your post. Interesting. The main reason you said that podium was essentially definite town was the way he reacted to Fate. Are (or were) you implying that a Fate-virgin scum would literally give up? OH BTW he did give up against me... what do you think about that?

The problem I have about your post is that I honestly don't think an honest, rational person could come to the conclusion that podium is obviously town. A dishonest, rational person could come to such a conclusion.

Oh that. That was a theory I have on Town/Scum behavior when dealing with someone Fate.

I'm a psych major.

. You are not Fate. Fate is a different level from you. Therefore, it won't count, duh.

In your #241, you basically just said..."Vas has scummy motivations for defending Podium". While that's a cool theory and all, you've jumped the gun and automatically went to motivations. It doesn't work like that. You tie scummy actions first then to the scummy motivations. You are making it look like defending someone is scummy(it's not), and you assume I'm scum with scummy motivations.

Please see the last quote stripe in my #316 on my stance in defending people.

----

implosion is super duper scum right now. implosion wagon is a go. I'll summarize the case on him when I have time. GW can wait, I guess.

Vote: implosion

[VasudeVa]

Oh, btw,

@Mod: Do scum have daytalk?

No they do not.

[implosion]

How is 'His reaction is somewhat scummy IMO' not lazy? (Which was your comment on podium in your whole 241, others are lame questions and lame assertions that barely explain anything)? How is a vote hop onto the largest wagon with you barely doing anything to make sure of your read on podium not oppurtunistic?

His reaction wasn't the main reason I jumped on the wagon. I read through ten pages, and then said what I thought. Yes, I jumped on the largest wagon. No, I didn't do it without reasoning.

Podium's #314 said I was town because of my attention to detail and my perseverence in swimming through the muck.

What number post is this? 314 wasn't a post by podium.

Zdenek is right, you are cherry picking quotes.

Would you rather I quote every single thing podium has said? You can argue that anyone making a case is cherry picking by virtue of them only showing certain quotations - that doesn't mean that they are.

In your #241, you basically just said..."Vas has scummy motivations for defending Podium". While that's a cool theory and all, you've jumped the gun and automatically went to motivations. It doesn't work like that. You tie scummy actions first then to the scummy motivations. You are making it look like defending someone is scummy(it's not), and you assume I'm scum with scummy motivations.

I'm not saying that defending podium is scummy. I don't think saying the case on him is bad is scummy - I just don't think a townie would think he was town. And why can't it work like that? Because you said so? And I'm not even arguing from motivations - I'm arguing from use of logic. I just don't think that someone who was being honest would come to the conclusion that podium is obvtown.

[VasudeVa]

His reaction wasn't the main reason I jumped on the wagon. I read through ten pages, and then said what I thought. Yes, I jumped on the largest wagon. No, I didn't do it without reasoning.

Oh really~?

Done reading. Blah. Long story short: MoI is right, podium has blatantly done no scumhunting at all (until earlier this page, and that's kind of shitty anyway). He just complains. And complains. And complains.

His reaction

to Fate is somewhat scummy IMO (though it's possible that it isn't) but the rest of what he's doing just isn't town. It just isn't.

This suure looks like it~ the rest is either IIoA("complaining complaining") or parroting MoI("MoI is right!").

What number post is this? 314 wasn't a post by podium.

Sorry, I meant #234, his response when I asked him why he was refusing to give out his Fate/Vas reads.

Would you rather I quote every single thing podium has said? You can argue that anyone making a case is cherry picking by virtue of them only showing certain quotations - that doesn't mean that they are.

The main difference is: You aren't even reading his podium's posts. You pick a quote and make it appear as scummy as possible.

True, everyone quotes bits and pieces of stuff. But it's best if you try to justly summarize what you just read and quote the important bits. But you... you show evidence that you aren't even reading the posts of the people you are accusing. You are unjustly summarizing podium's posts and picking the ones that are ripe for attack.

I'm not saying that defending podium is scummy. I don't think saying the case on him is bad is scummy - I just don't think a townie would think he was town. And why can't it work like that? Because you said so? And I'm not even arguing from motivations - I'm arguing from use of logic. I just don't think that someone who was being honest would come to the conclusion that podium is obvtown.

This is logically fallacious.

Haha, no. You sooo did argue motivations. You first said 'Why would a Townie think podium is obvTown?', then opened the theory that I am scum for defending podium. And then you theorized 'this is scum keeping their options open'.

[Zdenek]

I usually dislike 'misrep' accusation, but the second part here is 100% misrep. There was a beefy load of analysis in my ISO 9.
It includes:

To clarify my post: my reading of yours is that that first four paragraphs are IIoA plus an observation of Seacore's, and the general analysis of Fate. That was the almost and a lot of it. I guess I should have said almost half.

[podium123456]

Im (trying) to go over the thread right now. (are we really on page 14? lol)

And i just noticed something ironic (if thats the right term).

GW was attacking me for taking something petty in RVS and trying to turn it into a big scumdeal... which is a valid thing to investigate....

but what actually happened, was that HE took something petty (yes, imo... but still) and tried to make a big scumdeal out of it.

hah.

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but that's besides all the other stuff that he's done.

in regards to VV moving on implosion... i still feel that GW has acted the scummiest. implosion has been saying a lot of wacky stuff, and making points that are kinda ridiculous (mostly trying to paint me as scum). but for right now, i dont think he is acting... i get the feeling that he's the type of guy that engages in logic of that quality.

also, seacore remains looking bad to me. i would put seacore in front of implosion, actually.

nachomama has, by far, the worst input of the thread so far... substance wise. do something, you clown.

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xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

and dont we have like 3 players that havent even shown up? xenophone, butterfly, and zinive?

[podium123456]

ok i made it through. let me see if i can compile my notepad file into something concise and understandable....

@ Vibebox

- In post 65 you said zinive was bad... you later clarified (in 118) that it was due to 'gut' and because there were low numbers of posts. The only thing zinive had posted, was a post making a valid point. there were many others who hadn't given

any

substance (or even any posts). tell me why you had a bad gut feeling about zinive making a valid comment, when most others hadn't done that much.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

VV/MOI vs. Vibebox

- Ok, these two ganged up on vibebox pretty hard at the beginning. i think the severity of their suspicioun didn't match the severity of what he was accused of. yeah, there was some misunderstanding about a few things, and vibebox was being a little short... but i thought he answered all of their inquiries extremely well once he approached it seriously.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

VV

- regarding VV, and after reading his vibebox interaction... i have to say that it's a darn good thing he made his 176. as i said, i thought his push on vibe was bad at times... HOWEVER, he did appear to concede that vibe was explaining things sufficiently, and back down in 150. it was just my opinion that vibe had done it sufficiently much earlier.

pre-176, i would call VV null leaning scum. post-176, his arguments have been a lot better. as i said... 176 is towny, if nothing else, for the correct/thorough analysis of all that slop. from my point of view, though, his opinions matched what my intent actually was (i understand thats impossible for anyone else to know... im just telling you my thoughts). so, i dont think i really have much choice but to call him town... and if he ended up scum, i would still feel i made the right decision, even in hindsight.

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Vibebox

- I have a question outstanding to him, but vibebox is a town read for me at this point. i find nothing really scummy with his input or reasoning/arguing. his activity has dropped off a little, but i see that he recently made a post saying he was going to catch up. interested to hear what he has to say.

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Fate

- His 137 was actually an extremely observant/valid post... especially considering that we were all in the middle of a flamefest at that time. maybe there actually

are

some quality scumhunting skills underneath all of the capslocks... more townpoints for him.

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[podium123456]

Seacore

- A reread of the thread enhances my scum read of him. Fate's points about his voteswitch/vibevote were valid, and rightfully suspicious. i'm not that impressed with seacores explanation that he had been 'wavering' on his read for days, but kept it to himself.

also, when fate asked sea about why he was still unhappy with vibes play, sea said:

I have read all of his posts, and I still find him to be far less forthcoming and open than I like my town to be.

Which is a complete pile of horsecrap. I understand there is some subjectvity involved, but if you go back and look at vibes discussions with moi and vv, i dont really see how they could be any more forthcoming or open. hell, even VV backed down and said his explanations made up for his earlier vagueness.

i find it extremely scummy for seacore to make this observation. if he had really been observing and watching vibe for days with a 'wavering' mindset, i dont think he would have described that type of play as 'not forthcoming or open'.

Of course, the points i previously raised still remain.

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MagnaofIllusion

- This was the biggest surprise i got from my reread... from only glancing at his non-me stuff, i thought he was giving good content. a closer inspection, and i feel completely different.

First of all, he starts his crusade on vibe with:

@implosion: If I just told you, what would your job be in all this?

Hey look, either a veiled attempt at in-thread communication to a partner of some sort or a reaction test. Either way it’s worth further investigation.

VOTE: Vibebox

Personally, the whole 'i caught you coaching thing' is way overused (and overrated) as a scumhunting thing. I've just never seen it, or talked to anyone else that has ever seen it, ACTUALLY happen (in a blatant form like that). But i've seen a ton of people try to use it against someone. i think it's scummy, and is an example of someone taking something small/petty in RVS to try and blow it up. (hey gw, where were u on this bud? i mean... he actually made a case and a vote and everything...)

Magna: If you are so worried about coaching attempts during day, how come you NEVER said anything about this:

@Fate:

Careful of VI traps.

If i was someone that thought stuff like this was indicative of scum coaching their partner during day (and im not), this one is just as bad... if not worse... than the one you criticized.

------------------------------------------

MOI remains on the vibe trail, and his 177 has some pretty shoddy arguments in it regarding vibe. i can go into detail if wanted, but im leaving it now out for brevity.

**

And dont forget that VV (whose arguments were almost the same as MOI's) had backed down from his case... based on the

same

discussions that MOI is continuing to force the case with. Interesting, no?

**

------------------------------------------

His 238 also includes some pretty lousy arguments. (i have a post open to him discussing some of this)

So, with all that... definately a

FOS: MOI

from me at this point.

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Implosion = VI for now

Nacho = Borderline active lurker, full fledged substance-lacking'er

GW = remains my top scumpick

zdenek = i think i just realized that he replaced zinive. dont recall seeing anything too out of the ordinary with his input so far.

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and now i'm caught up

like a bauss.

[Fate]

I'm pretty sure VV was trying to mediate things, I've been skimming along avoiding this thread but I believe you still have yet to backdown.

So here we are podium, vote stays.

[Nachomamma8]

Unvote

Good work kid.

do something, you clown.

I told you it would be like this.

[Fate]

nacho you're supposed to stay on with me until he concedes AND then we can make the switch.

You doing it early just undermines my Day Power.

Why would you undermine my Power??

[Nachomamma8]

A man's word is all he has, mate.
He gave his word in one of his posts that he was done.
Gotta respect it, man. Sorry :/

But if you vote someone else I will happily tag on. Even if you want to vote for me.
My vote is your vote <3

[Fate]

Ah that's true, you DIDN'T go in a new direction without me so that's all fine and good.

Unvote:
Vote: Implosion

Even if he is, you know why this has gotta happen, right nacho? <3

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Implosion

[Seacore]

I'm back home. I've been trying to keep abreast of things by phone, but there's been a lot to read, and most of it painful. I'm likely going to bed, but I'll probably be able to post something meaningful from work tomorrow.

[Nachomamma8]

If readin is painful, don't read.
Or at least, don't read everything.
Just read selectively.

[Seacore]

Yeah, I"m largely going to focus on the implosion stuff, as he seems the main other case. But who knows, work could be super boring and my other game seems to have eased off.

[Seacore]

Okay, I've done as much of a reread as I'm going to do, I'm still happy with a podium lynch.

I see that Fate is suspicious that I didn't chime in when he saw me online. I was at my parent's place all weekend, any time I was viewed online was me reading the two games I'm in on my phone. I said that before I went on V/LA.

Can somebody sum up the implosion case? Is it basically him saying podium might be a jester? I've never played a game with a jester before so I have no idea how discussions about them work.

I've seen some questions asked of me, but none of them seem very important.
There's a general accusation of podium and I being scum buddies. I can't refute that we defended each other early, whether or not you read that as a scum tell is up to you. As for my jump onto his wagon, again, it's all about whether you believe me, but I'll spell out my thought process a little more clearly.
I was voting for Vibe. I did this because I hate people who vote without reason. It's hard to get reads, they can claim later what their motives were, etc. It was the scummiest thing I'd seen so far, and I stand by the fact that I didn't find podium's reaction to the 'breadcrumb' votes or his defence of me that scummy.
Then podium started to react and it drew my attention. I waited and watched a little while because a)podium had plenty of pressure and was reacting to it, and b)I didn't want to take the pressure off of Vibe just yet. Podium's recent accusation that if I don't like players who aren't forthcoming and open, then I was being dodgy myself isnt' quite apt. I don't like players who aren't open or forthcoming about their votes. If I was posted "I'm wavering on my vibe vote" before I was ready to do so, that would remove the whole point of voting for him. After that, I voted for podium and haven't regretted it since.
So most accusations of me being scum seem to involve me being scum with podium (unless I"ve missed something).
Those accusations are based on early defence of each other and then later wagoning of each other. Again, let me know if I've missed something.

[Nachomamma8]

You need a case?
Fate is voting implosion.
THAT'S ALL THE CASE I NEED, BABY.

[podium123456]

I've seen some questions asked of me, but none of them seem very important.

Whether or not you think they are important is kind of irrelevant, you know. Please answer my (repeated) question as to what inconsistencies i had made.

Then podium started to react and it drew my attention. I waited and watched a little while because a)podium had plenty of pressure and was reacting to it, and b)I didn't want to take the pressure off of Vibe just yet. After that, I'm still happy with a podium lynch.

You're entire case against me is that i presented a 'you cant lynch me for that' attitude while arguing. When i asked for an example, you gave me quotes in which i was asking questions about my case. That's not indicative of a 'you cant lynch me for that' attitude.

I would like to see some better examples (and logic dictates that there must be tons... as my input in this game has been tremendous... so for you to be willing to lynch me based on having that attitude 'the whole time', it would have to encompass a huge bulk of my discourse).

As a side note... and i

think

a couple people have mentioned this... what exactly is scummy about occasionally stating why i dont think what i am being accused of is actually a legitimate/substantive scumtell? Isn't that a normal part of a defense?

Podium's recent accusation that if I don't like players who aren't forthcoming and open, then I was being dodgy myself isnt' quite apt. I don't like players who aren't open or forthcoming about their votes.

No, that wasn't what i said at all. What i said was that based on the overall input vibebox contributed concerning his case, to continue to call him 'not forthcoming or open' is stretching reality... even a subjective reality. For instance, vibe's ISO 10 is a pretty thorough discussion of the case on him, as well as his explanations. Even VV, who was pushing nearly the same case as you... (except VV was pushing it much harder and thorougly) agreed that he had made up for his earlier un-openness.

You're logic doesn't add up to me... even subjectively. I dont recall having a problem with your logic in the game we played together, when you were town... i actually left that game with the impression that you were a very solid player.

All of this adds into the picture as to why i am pretty confident that you are one of the scum here.