Consulmaker II: the Pyrrhic War - Game over.

[chamber]

Not interested sounds more like he doesn't care how the groups are created than that he opposes the suggested methods. We should be working on electing tribunes though. Primate is going to be 1, whos going to be number 2? I suggest InHim Lowell and Myself as reasonable choices.

Vote InHim

for now.

[SensFan]

Unvote; Vote: Jack

I want to see him as a Tribune.

[chamber]

Sens, stop failing please.

[ribwich]

...this is already such a weird game. Sens, why would you want Jack to be Tribune? Jack and myself should be the two guaranteed to not be a Tribune this day.

I haven't really seen enough yet to know for sure who I want to vote for, but I'm leaning towards chamber, InHim, and rabies right now.

[Mert]

Right, just had a quick catchup read as I was busy for most of the weekend. Without further ado,

Vote for Tribune: Mert

.

There are two things that are concerning me right now - the first is Sens strong desire to have Jack as Tribune when we can be pretty sure right now that there's at least one scum in {Jack, ribwich}. While I understand his comments about keeping them around and having a guaranteed scum lynch later in the game, I would personally hesitate to allow either of those two to be Tribune for today. Even if/when one of them trips up and looks like they're vetoing a scum execution (or similarly not vetoing a town one), I simply cannot see how that wouldn't, at best, simply lead to going round in circles.

The second thing that concerns me is the relative ease at which everyone seems to have accepted that there's definitely town in those two - while the role of Consulmaker is somewhat confirmable, my first thought when reading the claim and counterclaim was that it just seemed too... odd to be normal town play by either. I'm personally not yet ready to believe that this isn't a ploy by

two

scum trying to paint a sufficiently confusing picture as to give one of them the appearance of being "confirmed", at least for a day or two. It's hard to put into words exactly, but I'm going to go back and examine the interaction between those two soon.

In the meantime, could both the Consuls give some indication of which, if either, of the claims they're more inclined to believe right now and their reasons for that?

[Primate]

If they are both scum faking and running a joint gambit I will eat my own head.

[Rabies]

What's been town about lowell?

From the diction and shamelessness of his posts, he seems genuine about his reads (though not really solid - hence why I called him town

ish

).

Not interested sounds more like he doesn't care how the groups are created than that he opposes the suggested methods. We should be working on electing tribunes though. Primate is going to be 1, whos going to be number 2? I suggest InHim Lowell and Myself as reasonable choices.

Vote InHim

for now.

I'm with you on your vanderbilt vote, but I'm not seeing why Primate is such an

obvious

choice. He writes very clearly and effectively, but my read on him is still pretty null.

VOTE: vanderbilt groundhog (inhimshallibe)

P. Edit: That's an odd thought, why would two scum claim CM immediately? Do you have any evidence to back up this assertion?

I would think that in your situation, the real consulmaker would just counterclaim, and then there would be 2 scum outed to get rid of a powerrole that's going to be replaced anyway.

[chamber]

Hey consuls, lets execute mert.

[chamber]

@rabies

My suggestions were based off the quality of player I know them to be more than their alignment in this game, its day 1 I don't expect to have solid reads before the votes need to be in.

[Mert]

Do you have any evidence to back up this assertion?

Evidence? No of course not. However, that is simply a reflection of my initial thoughts when reading through it - Jack's very early claim worried me greatly but there's something about the manner in which the counterclaim came out that concerned me too - firstly it was incredibly quick. He said in Post 116 that he wasn't planning on revealing it unless faced with an execution order yet his very first post in the game was to counterclaim. While I'll freely admit that as a scum ploy wherein both are scum it does seem strange, there's something about the speed in which both claims surfaced that seemed a little off so some little part of my mind started wondering if it all wasn't a touch pre-meditated. The proposed ways of proving which of the Consulmakers is telling the truth have some merit, certainly, but none of the suggestions so far seem entirely foolproof either - though the arbitrary ordering of two lists would probably be a sensible, albeit risky (potential for two scum Consuls etc) way of determining it.

In limited-votepower games like Kingmaker or this one, confirmed protown players are arguably more valuable than even in a normal Mafia game. My concern wasn't so much that both were scum but more the lack of thought generally put into the idea that they could be. I'm exceedingly wary of anything that could "confirm" a player for even so much as a day as a result. What I'm saying, simply, is that I don't think it's as impossible as some might claim for this to be a ploy - both of the claims have things about them that strike me as perculiar and, for that reason, I'm simply advocating keeping an open mind and not being too quick to consider someone absolutely confirmed, given how valuable "confirmed town" status is in this game.

[chamber]

Mert, the consulmaker is the one that makes consuls, and also the only one that knows if these guys are both scum. Why the fuck would he make one a consul even if 1 DID get 'confirmed' to the rest of the town? Plus 3rd consulmaker, if you exist, make someone from each group a consul. Problem solved, now lets get on to killing you(or electing tribunes w/e).

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Tribunal Vote Count

Primate - 2(SpyreX, Jack)
chamber - 2(Primate, inHimshallibe)
inHimshallibe - 2(chamber, Rabies)
Mert - 2(scotmany12, Mert)
Lowell - 1(Lowell)
chesskid3 - 1(chesskid3)
Rabies - 1(Nathanael)
Jack - 1(SensFan)

Not voting - (Powerrox93, ribwich, Katsuki, xRECKONERx, Porochaz, dramonic, horrordude0215)

No cryptography.

[Mert]

Why the fuck would he make one a consul even if 1 DID get 'confirmed' to the rest of the town?

I wasn't suggesting he would make either of the two claimants a Consul - the potential existed simply in his selection of two people randomly/arbitrarily/whateverly from a list of people - any of whom could be scum.

The danger inherent in one of them being made "confirmed" isn't that it would fool the real Consulmaker (obviously this wouldn't be the case) but that it'd sufficiently fool someone who was made Consul enough to at least hesitate before executing him.

[Katsuki]

Oh this game has started?

Will read it when I have time.

[chamber]

The danger inherent in one of them being made "confirmed" isn't that it would fool the real Consulmaker (obviously this wouldn't be the case) but that it'd sufficiently fool someone who was made Consul enough to at least hesitate before executing him.

And why is that more likely in this game compared to a game with normal mechanics?

[Primate]

I just don't see it. It's the same kind of gambit where you have two scum claiming confirmed mason D1 and how often do you see that or similar? It's even worse in this case because there is a confirmed town role out there who can confirm in thread that they are lying. If I see evidence that makes me suspect, I'll go for it, but honestly, things like this are so outside my view of "things scum do", that for all intents and purposes I consider it impossible. There's obviously some tactic going on, but realistically, it's not that one.

Then again, I suck at mafia soooo...

[Mert]

And why is that more likely in this game compared to a game with normal mechanics?

I didn't say it was more likely, I said it was more of a threat - in a game with normal mechanics, if one player is fooled by a convincing "confirmation" but the rest of the players are not, it typically wouldn't matter as there would still be a sufficient number of people with the power to vote who would be able to still remove that player. In this game, however, he need only convince one Consul to not execute him / veto any execution order to make it through that particular day. As the game goes on, the ability to buy oneself an additional day could be an extremely potent weapon.

It is clear that

some

kind of ploy is being enacted - while there's every possibility that it's exactly as suggested (one of the two is scum, one of the two is town), are you saying you find

nothing

odd about the rapid-fire nature of the claim and counterclaim with not a single post from either preceeding it?

[Jack]

lol @both of us being scum.

I think both of us are town. Rib's gambit is actually clever.

[SensFan]

At this point, I'm not willing to give the least bit of consideration to the idea that both of you are Town, and literally nothing that could happen in the game would change my mind.

[Primate]

Rib's gambit is actually clever.

Why?

[Jack]

Don't worry about it.

This setup talk is disappointingly dull.

[chamber]

Jack, spill.

[SpyreX]

It really is.

Just pick a method with what we have up (the list) and split into two. How about even and odds? Done. Done.

I'm down for seeing a town reason for the pairoclaims - the only reason that I'm hesitant is that while I don't see a town one, I SURE don't see a scum one.

Lets move away from that for now to the important things:

I want to see some wagons forming for the Tribunal. I'm still very pleased with Primate and think this is a very good call.

Not voting - (Powerrox93, ribwich, Katsuki, xRECKONERx, Porochaz, dramonic, horrordude0215) <--- is unacceptable.

[Jack]

Suffragium:Porochaz

count:

Porachaz: 1 (Jack)

[chesskid3]

It really is.

Just pick a method with what we have up (the list) and split into two. How about even and odds? Done. Done.

I'm down for seeing a town reason for the pairoclaims - the only reason that I'm hesitant is that while I don't see a town one, I SURE don't see a scum one.

Lets move away from that for now to the important things:

I want to see some wagons forming for the Tribunal. I'm still very pleased with Primate and think this is a very good call.

Not voting - (Powerrox93, ribwich, Katsuki, xRECKONERx, Porochaz, dramonic, horrordude0215) <--- is unacceptable.

About freaking time someone said that.

Also, I'm not scrapping for the sake of it. Nathanael comes at me with "I'm starting to suspect chesskid because he dares to ask me why I voted Lowell for tribune after one craptastic post ZOMGZOMGZOMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG"

Seriously. Lowell. Less than useless when he's town, and for some reason hard to lynch when he's scum. YA WOOOO GREAT TRIBUNE RIGHT THERE