Newbie 1027: Trick or Treat! [Game Over]

[Thor665]

Actually, this should be interesting just to see the reactions to it, if nothing else;

@@Vote: ooBAZZoo

[andrew94]

^ im pretty sure he was zapping park


p.s. what do you think about the case i made on bazz on day 1(the one about him wanting 3+claims)

pp.s hunt got replaced dude

[Thor665]

I think he was zapping me, though he may have floated to park - either situation still works within my narrative.

You're right Hunt was replaced;

@

Huntman

Guy who used to be called Hunt -

what are your thoughts on andrew's playstyle in this game as compared to his other games?

Ignore this question, it's useless now.

@andrew - the 3+ claims I've seen happen from town and scum. Generally I think your case at that point was one of icing looking for a cake. The cake may or may not be real

[chkflip]

@Thor:
- It was more than he'd done, which, up to that point, was nothing short of "keeping [me] in the back of [his] mind" and that was that.

@Thor/andrew:
- How am I sheeping? I actually posted Neruz' points before giving my

completely different reasons

. Care to explain? You lost me.

[Thor665]

Why did your special and unique case on park come immediately after his special and unique case on park?

[andrew94]

^ u had more than enough time chkflip to post it up, but he had to read 17pages

[chkflip]

@Thor:
- At the time, I was re-reading and re-reading and re-reading. The toss up, for me, was andrew or park. My case against andrew is more emotional and just the fact that I don't like his wording on several occasions. Park, on the other hand, had several things against him already. Things I'd brought up D1 and didn't follow up on as I had confidentally thought guderian was scum. I'll give it to you, the timing is super close, but I didn't feel the need to wait for several hours just to post and not look suspicious. You'll notice I posted several times that day, asking questions and overall trying to get D2 rolling.
- What do you think of the case on park thus far?
- Do you have a better suspect?

@andrew:
- Okay? And you've, since, had that same amount of time - and did nothing. Why am I the one falling under scrutiny for getting something done?
- What do you think of the case on park thus far?
- Do you have a better suspect?

[andrew94]

@chkflip
- because u did that thing after the replacement voted park, sound familar?
- gotta read
-yes you

[andrew94]

Let's rack 'em.
- Easily concedes.
- Calls for a "do over" and eggshell's it since
- bandwagon hop into lynch
-

FoS

for being anti-town, lynching Gud early
-

not truly being 75% sure?

Lying?

dude thats what the above person wrote. this shows that you actually read his post before you posted yours instead of 'reading and reading and reading

Now, let's add what I've responded to parknourie with before:

I'm back from V/LA today, officially.
Right now it is Chkflip who is on the second space of my scummy list.
His popcorn-posts are infact quite useless. More useless than going on lurking for four days I should say.
Yeah he DID throw a quick switch of vote from me to Guderian, but that was because everyone called him Thor's pet as he only read me.

Like I've already stated, it was simply answering the question posed to me in the most concise manner possible. popcorn-posts? Nobody is firing any questions at me, and the things that are being brought up to me are being addressed, again, in the most concise manner possible. Sorry you don't like the fact that I can get my point across without typing as much as you have to.

- Jumps the Flip wagon every chance he can get without giving real reason to his rhyme. Just "Flip is 2nd candidate" but no sound excuse as to why.
- Who's popcorn posting now?

OHRI

-

no shit, you came in, immeditely voted park, who was on the 'hot seat', and claimed you didnt read anything else. reading iso fails, you gotta read whats about it bro. blantant bs

He tried to put me back on the hot-seat by following orders from Thor and, golly, his opinions were weak.

Put you back on the hot seat? Nice try, spin doctor, but realize that I had about a total of maybe ten minutes with the thread -- at which time I was busy eating breakfast -- so I really had no idea that you were on the hot seat, short of making an assumption. I don't assume. My opinions may have been weak, but that's simply because they're opinions without much fact. He asked how I felt: opinion. Didn't need to get out my scumagnifying glass to figure that one out.

- Belittling. Okay, you thought my opinions were weak, you still don't have grounds to think I'm scum.
- This is, so far, the only reason he's given for thinking I'm scum. Merely because I voted for him.

"

OMGUS

!"

much?

I guess many already pointed this out but Chkflip threw a vote on me with reading only what I posted in this game.

Nice job. You read something I said and remembered it. Good for you.

Then he says I'm town. Then he says because I went on V/LA i might be scum. Its purely based on my playstyle in which Chkflip tries to draw suspicion on me. He did that when he entered this game before.

ERNT!

Wrong, thanks for playing. Quote me where I said you were town - you're misinterpreting, but that seems to be common for you. I said that, due to you going on V/LA, there was no desire for me to press you with any questions or gather more factual information to present a case against you - in not so many words. Doesn't make sense to talk to someone who isn't here, it's like I'm talking to a wall. Ohri- already doing that.

- Trying to spin my own words against me not once, but twice, trying to use his misrep to get me to slip.

if your town, you have nothing to slip

Of course when people come back from V/LA, they go back reading what has occured and do serious analysis on everybody's progressions.

I'd like to hear one. A logical one, preferably.

- He's still yet to provide this.

i agree

VOTE: parknourie

bolded bits are mine

[andrew94]

bazz, what would you gain from asking the % question. i feel that it is a loaded question.

[chkflip]

- andrew, I love that you:
a) admitted to being ignorant/worthless (yes, calling me a sheep when you obvious don't know wtf you're saying is worthless)
b) are playing the same ditzy repeatsies game you played with guderian (I was on all day that day, posting questions, overall just trying to get people to contribute.) and
c) have supplied absolutely nothing, today, for a case against me. Please, be useful, ask questions, do

something

before you try to get on me for being a productive member of town. Post time aside, that's exactly what I've been doing.

[OhWOWedit]
@andrew:
- You really are as dense as you say you are.
- CONGRATULATIONS! THAT IS WHAT HE WROTE! Exactly why I said "Let's rack em," I was tallying the things he'd pointed out as to not repeat.
- Blatant bs? Or you being blatantly blind? I never said I ISO'd him, I said I focused on his posts. I didn't know wtf ISO was at that point. I was brand new to this site, remember?
- *facepalm* Slip, meaning that I'd get emotional and therefore give the lot of you a false reason to mislynch me.

[Thor665]

@Thor:
[snip]
- What do you think of the case on park thus far?
- Do you have a better suspect?

@EVERYBODY

A quick question; is being the hammer on town scummy - yes/no? (if you feel the need to add reasons I'm fine hearing them.

[chkflip]

The way park did it? Yes. Otherwise? It's a toss up to the situation at hand. I'll elaborate if you'd like.

[chkflip]

^ u had more than enough time chkflip to post it up, but he had to read 17pages

- You should note that almost every single quote he pulled was several pages ago.
- To me, it doesn't look like he looked passed the lynching, if that. Especially with the way he wrote it.

[Thor665]

No need to elaborate unless you think it's important to understanding your standpoint.

[Neruz]

@neruz, i dont like you. remember that your replacee huntman basically thought mr guderian was suspicious (so did i) and he thought gud was very suspisious indeed. now, you cant just come in here as a replacement, forget everything ur replacee did.

I absolutely can and will. Huntman presumably had his own reasons for thinking Gude was suspcious, judging by his vote and posts he was sucked up into the bandwagon. But Huntman's reasons are not my reasons, i cannot and will not read his mind and then play the game the same way he would. I can only play the game the way i will, and i am doing just that, and i cannot see any reason why Gude was lynched over park.

@Huntman

- what are your thoughts on andrew's playstyle in this game as compared to his other games?

Huntman's not here anymore. Only us Neruzes.


I'm not seeing any buddying from chkflip here. He brought his own points to the table which all seem valid to me and i must say i find it

very

interesting that his chief antagonist is andrew, who not only happens to be my second suspect but is also apparantly

very

much against my acting on my own and drawing my own conclusions against park instead of pretending to be Huntman and doing whatever it is Huntman was doing.

lets have an example

person A: IM THE COP
mod: person A has been replaced by Person B
person B: sup, im L1 right, ok im a townie.
everyone: LUL WUT

Yes because counterclaiming your own role claim is

exactly the same

as different people drawing different conclusions.[/sarcasm]

firsty, as some dude said earlier, scum justify hammers etc, he just hammered.

Indeed they do, scum often justify hammers to try and draw flak from a mislynch away from them.

Interesting how park did exactly that.

@EVERYBODY

A quick question; is being the hammer on town scummy - yes/no? (if you feel the need to add reasons I'm fine hearing them.

Depends. Often the simple fact of the matter is that a town player ends up looking scummy. Hammering in and of itself is neither a town or a scum tell, it's

how

you hammer which determines if it's towny or scummy. Town and scum react differently to mislynches; scum usually try and push the blame for the hammer off them by looking like they're not responsible, they also often set themselves up so that it doesn't look like it's their fault because they know it will be a mislynch. Town, on the other hand, tend to be surprised at a mislynch, but justified in doing so because townies do not lynch people if they do not feel that the person is justified in being lynched. Therefore town have no need to try and avoid responsibility for the hammer and they have no way of preparing for a mislynch.

So, to recap; hammering in and of itself is not scummy. Hammering

in certain ways

is

scummy.

[KittyMo]

Vote Count

[L-2] parknourie - (Neruz, chkflip)

[L-3] ooBAZZoo - (Thor665)

[4]

Not Voting

- (andrew94, Maniamax, ooBAZZoo, parknourie,)

With

7

alive, it's

4

to lynch!

Deadline is at Saturday, December 11, 2010 at 12:00:00 Noon (San Jose time).

Prods & Replacements

none needed

[ooBAZZoo]

After being busy I'm surprised to see a vote against me.
@Thor - I've read andrew's limited case against me and it seemed like standard andrew ridiculousness to me (to the degree where I pretty much ignored it).
1) What's your reason behind voting me?
2) What did you mean by "Actually, this should be interesting just to see the reactions to it, if nothing else" (before voting)? Did you mean my reaction, or other's?

------
I'll give a response to andrew's case so far. As far as I can tell, the case is predominantly centred around me voting Thor as opposed to the wagon leaders Gude and Chk:

the main reason i am looking at bazz is because of his reluctance to commit to a wagon.
he seems to be wanting to gain town cred/ evoke another claim.

wanting 3 claims on d1? thats seriously some antitown/ scum behaviour. refusing to hammer for town credit/ etc.

[me voting Thor and not one of the two wagon leaders]:
Having a third person claim D1 is not ideal, however, in the situation we were in, I was far more willing to risk another claim than lynch either of the two wagon leaders. In case you missed my reasons why, I'll repeat them (again).
I wasn't prepared to lynch Gude because I didn't read him as scum, and believed the wagon was the result of scum misleading town (and still believe this).
I wasn't prepared to lynch Chkflip because, although he had committed a few scummy acts, he hadn't posted opinions of others (with the exception of sheeping andrew and Thor) and there had been limited opinions posted of him. As a result, we would have learned nothing from his flip (town or scum) going into D2 and would be back to square one.
My sole aim in this game is finding scum, and I will vote accordingly. If you think holding this priority over the slim chance that I might out a power role is scummy, then that's your belief, and there's nothing more I can add.

["wanting to gain town credit"]:
This is an ridiculous reason. Its highly subjective and contains aspects of WIFOM. What I gather is being suggested is that I am acting in a way to appear town (e.g. being vocal about what I see as a likely mislynch, not being persuaded onto wagons that I see as poor) because I'm actually scum trying to appear town. There are so many circular flaws in this logic that it doesn't hold any weight.

- How is a reluctance to commit to a wagon scummy when there are poor reasons for both votes?
- I never "wanted 3 claims" so that's misrepresentation; I saw the slim chance of outing a PR as the lesser of two evils.
- I never "refused to hammer", just didn't vote for one of 2 people when I have 8 players to suspect.
- If you believe I'm acting in a way to try and appear town, then that's your subjective view, but its probably because, in fact, my actions are town-motivated.
------

Right now, I see aspects of OMGUS in both Thor and andrew's accusation of me.
Also, since it was andrew and Thor who so ardently pushed the Gude wagon to a mislynch, so I'm suspicious of the cases they put forward now.
In my opinion, its highly likely that one of them is scum.

---------------------------

odds are there was probably one scum who was on the Guderian wagon and probably one scum who was not.

@Thor:
3) If I'm the player off the wagon you suspect, who on the wagon is your top suspect?
4) (If not the answer to Q3) What's your read of andrew? (because at the moment I'm thinking that if you are town, its likely that he is scum)

[There are other things I want to comment on (like the recent case on Park), but will do so in another post.]

[parknourie]

Just as I have thought to myself.
Chkflip shows an opportunistic vote on me quickly after Neruz has voted.
Neruz's decision on voting me is poorly mimicked by Chkflip.
When did I ever waste my vote on you, Chkflip? Your reaction to Neruz's post to attack me is really an empty spectre that shows you are only reading this game through your eyes with people's reactions to you and you only.
Coming back to a sentence before, "OMGUS"? LOL, you just can't keep your mouth shut can you? The reason why I was suspicious of you were not only purely because you have voted me but because you did it in your own selfish, narrow-minded way.
My answer to BAZZ's question was really, a short, meaningless post. Funny that it took you quite a while to actually go on to it as a tool to nail me down alongside Neruz.
What was the essence of BAZZ's question? I could have just said "Oh yeah, he was 100% scum to me...but turns out he wasnt...hahahaha." I suppose you were 100% sure of Gude's guilt then?? That just shows how bad you are at this game.
No matter how sure you are of someone's guilt, unless you are a Cop in this game, you can NEVER be 100% sure of someone's role in this game. It is by making deductions, analysation, that we get the filtered percentage rate of who to lynch.
What the fuck do you mean by wanting to hear a "logical one" about my statement on people coming back from V/LA and read the past posts?! Don't you read the posts you have missed when you come back from V/LA?

@@VOTE: Chkflip

Now's the time for me to move onto my next scum candidate. Come on, bring on the OMGUS statement.
I had my eyes on you for a while now.

[ooBAZZoo]

bazz, what would you gain from asking the % question. i feel that it is a loaded question.

I don't know what a loaded question is, but I asked it for two reasons:
- I found it hard from his posts to determine how scummy he actually found Gude. A percentage always gives a far more accurate depiction of someone's suspicion than "I find x scummy".
- I wanted to see if he went back of his suspicion of Gude in light of his town flip. In my most recent game, I asked a player (who turned out to be scum) a similar question and it proved quite telling.

---

Neruz (welcome btw) presents a reasonable case against Park. I realised that up until now Park hasn't been the focus of my attention.
However, by contrast, Chkflip's #420 screams of sheeping but desperately trying to appear as though he's not. He bullet-points Neruz's reasons to show he agrees with them, and follows by giving some really poor corroborating points which look (IMO) like he's desperately tried to find something to add to Neruz's case.
I see two motivations behind this:
1) He's scum, and trying not to make it obvious that he's getting early on the bandwagon of a town player.
2) He's town, agrees with Neruz's points, but has been accused of sheeping before so is trying not to appear to do so again.
Neruz's post is null for me, and I'll be doing a re-read of Park shortly.
(something else to note: If Neruz is scum then he's gonna be a tough nut to crack, because his reasoning seems solid and he clearly thinks before he posts)
Chkflip's post falls on the scummy side of null for me, but not enough to be after his head.

---

now, you [neruz] cant just come in here as a replacement, forget everything ur replacee did.

I know I'm slightly parroting Neruz here, but I thought it needed saying: Yes he can!
In what way does Hunt's suspicions have anything to do with the way his replacement reads the game?
Its the ridiculously flawed logic in statements like that that make andrew so frustrating to play with.

---

[POST EDIT]
Park, whilst I see the logic in your Chk vote, you don't seem to have responded at all to Neruz's case against you.

[Thor665]

@BAZZ - had a question you missed - hammering, is it scummy or not?
@parknourie - had a question you missed - hammering, is it scummy or not?

So far our results are;

Yes - 0
No - 0
Maybe, depending on *how* they hammer - 2

Still want to finish the poll.

After being busy I'm surprised to see a vote against me.

Would you have expected the vote if you weren't busy?

@Thor - I've read andrew's limited case against me and it seemed like standard andrew ridiculousness to me (to the degree where I pretty much ignored it).
1) What's your reason behind voting me?
2) What did you mean by "Actually, this should be interesting just to see the reactions to it, if nothing else" (before voting)? Did you mean my reaction, or other's?
[snip]
3) If I'm the player off the wagon you suspect, who on the wagon is your top suspect?
4) (If not the answer to Q3) What's your read of andrew? (because at the moment I'm thinking that if you are town, its likely that he is scum)

1. You seem to have puzzeled it out somewhat a bit later in your post - if you're still lost ask me again.
2. Why so narrow minded, can't it be both?
3. Not sure I have a 'top' suspect there currently. I consider myself and andrew most likely town, I consider park and chk the most obvious suspects, and I consider it annoying I lost Hunt so he couldn't answer my question to him.
4. Strong town read, same as yesterday.

[parknourie]

@ Thor - Hammering...really depends. Although I am more inclined to say that it is NOT scummy since I was the one to hammer here, but I would say every cases are quite different.
@ BAZZ - Saying anything against what Neruz said will be quite pointless...since what he says is true except for the fact that I'm scum. Indeed, I myself would be convinced as being scum looking at what he posted. But (I gta say this no matter how pointless it would look) I'm not scum.

[chkflip]

@parknourie:
- You should note that I was quick to respond to

everything

yesterday.
- Why would the timestamp change the fact that I think you're scum?
- By "poorly" you must mean that I quoted myself quoting you, then reiterated my points that were still valid? Sure thing, guy.
- Are you serious? Did I say you voted for me? No, no I didn't. I said you jumped onto the Flip wagon every chance you got. And you did. Came off completely AfR to me, several times.
- What reaction to Neruz' post? You mean my summary of what he said about your scum behavior?
- And here we're back to the name-calling, another reason it all sounds like OMGUS to me.
- BAZZ' question? Again, you realize I quoted

myself

, meaning I'd said all of that before, right?
- The essense of BAZZ' question was to get a read from you, which, imo, was scum.
- Now I see what that user meant when they said they don't say 100%.
- In the initial post I quoted, you said people normally give an overall read blahblahblah after v/la, so I'd requested such from you. Twice. And to no avail. Twice.
- Well, you've given me no real analysis or reasoning behind you voting for me (or thinking I'm scum) other than the following:
-- a) timestamp.
-- b) calling my case "weak" which any scum would do.
-- c) fluffed up your post with trash talk and nonsense.
-- d) blatant disregard and unwilling to listen after your own misinterpretation.
- It's quite AtP, an attempt at AfF, and StrawManning to say the least.
- And now look at you. "I'm not responding [to Neruz] because I'm not scum." That's all you have to say about that?

[ooBAZZoo]

By itself, the act of hammering isn't scummy. statistically its more likely to come from a town player (D1 anyway). However, like every act in these mafia games, the important thing is to speculate about the motive behind an act. If a hammer appears to be motivated by scum, then it becomes scummy. Everything is relative.

---

After being busy I'm surprised to see a vote against me.

Would you have expected the vote if you weren't busy?

What a strange question. The fact that I was busy wasn't directly related to my surprise. Did you seriously misinterpret this? If you'd like, I'll rephrase:
I've been busy; I haven't read the thread in a while. In this time there has been a vote against me; the vote has surprised me.
I think you're just finding something to be pernickety about because you have no real response to my rejection of andrew's case (which is evidently your case now too, considering your answer to my Q1).

2) What did you mean by "Actually, this should be interesting just to see the reactions to it, if nothing else" (before voting)? Did you mean my reaction, or other's?

2. Why so narrow minded, can't it be both?

It could well be both, but if it is, why not merely say that? Instead, all you've done is answer my question with a question, which is pretty annoying, and dodging the question.

1) What's your reason behind voting me?

1. You seem to have puzzeled it out somewhat a bit later in your post - if you're still lost ask me again.

I was fully expecting a well reasoned case from you, only one that you hadn't quite put down on the thread yet, which is why I asked you for your reasoning.
If your full reason for voting me is based on the same case that andrew's put forward then I'm surprised at how poor your scumhunting is (although judging from your D1 performance maybe I shouldn't be). As I've explained, andrew's case on me doesn't hold any real weight (like your early case against Park, and your case against Gude which has been proven to be wrong... I see a pattern emerging here ). The fact that you can't actually provide any supporting evidence for your vote, other than later referring to the thin reasons given by andrew, supports my suspicion that yours is merely an OMGUS vote for my condemnation of your Gude case, and my vote for you D1.

@Thor - Why are you so adamant that andrew is town? (some evidence would be nice)

---

For the same reasons I voted him D1, and because his case on me screams of a poor attempt at scum trying to get rid of the person who suspects them most:

@@Vote: Thor665

---

@Everyone

- What do you make of my suspicions of Thor and andrew? Whilst I have voted Thor, andrew comes in at a close second. I suspect that at least one of them is scum, if not both of them together (looking back, a scumparing between the two looks feasible). The cases the two of them have presented are poor (which has been proven by Gude's town flip), and whilst they could just be bad players, I suspect that, in fact, they are scum pushing for mislynches.

[Thor665]

I was fully expecting a well reasoned case from you, only one that you hadn't quite put down on the thread yet, which is why I asked you for your reasoning.

Didn't you call my Gud case yesterday terrible? Why would you expect a well reasoned case now?

If your full reason for voting me is based on the same case that andrew's put forward then I'm surprised at how poor your scumhunting is (although judging from your D1 performance maybe I shouldn't be). As I've explained, andrew's case on me doesn't hold any real weight

I've openly commented that andrew's case on you isn't impressive.

(like your early case against Park, and your case against Gude which has been proven to be wrong... I see a pattern emerging here ).

By 'pattern' that suggests you believe park to be town, unless the only pattern is Gud then you, thoughts?

@Thor - Why are you so adamant that andrew is town? (some evidence would be nice)

Some evidence that he is scum would be nice too. Why does it concern you that I think he's town? You did seem intent on sticking out a bit of an awkward choice to me when you asked me my reads on him and noted that you suspected only one of us was town (*hint - Thor, if you call andrew scum you'd be the town part of the pair - hint*).

Now I say I have a town read, and suddenly we're scum buddies together?
What changed?