Newbie 1027: Trick or Treat! [Game Over]

[ooBAZZoo]

Sorry, should have been tl;dr (for too long; didn't read). Wanted to get my post out without continually post-editing it.

[KittyMo]

Vote Count

[L-2] parknourie - (Neruz, chkflip)

[L-3] ooBAZZoo - (Thor665)
[L-3] chkflip - (parknourie)
[L-3] Thor665 - (ooBAZZoo)

[2]

Not Voting

- (andrew94, Maniamax)

With

7

alive, it's

4

to lynch!

Deadline is at Saturday, December 11, 2010 at 12:00:00 Noon (San Jose time).

Prods & Replacements

none needed

[Thor665]

I'm not seeing where he declared that either you or andrew were scum. You, andrew, hunt and chk have been his top suspects all game, at the moment he appears to have narrowed it down to you and andrew, with a stay on hunt\me until i've posted more, so his conclusion that you two are scum doesn't seem outside his original suspicions.

Here
Note at the bottom.
Especially when he asks me for my reads and then includes, 'gosh, if you're town he's scum I guess - please tell me your read on him' It's like the hook is staring me in the face.

From my perspective, the posting goes as such:
- Andrew presents some poor reasoning for finding me scum.
- You vote for me (without giving a single reason)

- You then call andrew's case bad immediately thereafter.

- I respond to andrew’s case saying it is flawed, and also ask you why

you

find me scum.
- You say I have ‘puzzled it out’ with my response to Andrew’s case (inferring that you and Andrew share the same thoughts

or perhaps indicating merely the point where I noted you were trying to get reactions.

).
- You then say

that you already said

‘andrew’s case on you isn’t impressive’.
This, to me, reads like scum who has forgotten where he’s lied: You vote me, without reasoning, relying on the case Andrew has put forward. Then, forgetting this, you wish to distance yourself from Andrew (who has already been mentioned as your potential scumbuddy) by saying that

his

case on me is week.

I fixed the above to helpfully clarify.
If you really think I play that badly when scum I am a very sad person.

A strong town read doesn’t come from nowhere.

No, it doesn't, and my ISO reflects where I had this town read on him.
Do you really think andrewscum is going to put so much of his rep on the line to shove through a mislynch?
Do you really think both members of the scumteam would blatantly do it while simultaneously declaring town reads on each other?

Infact, ‘persnickety’ is the US spelling, ‘pernickerty’ is the British.
So being a pernickety Brit, I’ll stick with that one.

Hmmm, thanks. Live and learn. Do you still pronounce it with the 's' sound?

What do you think about his switch in attitude from

'either Thor or anderw is scum'

to 'Thor and andrew are scum' after I claimed a town read on andrew?

Don’t misrepresent what I said (in bolded part). I never said this. Your case is getting thinner and thinner.

Well, to be honest you never said your claimed "at least" either. So we're equally misrepresenting (or is that equally attempting to understand language that is open to interpretation?) I think it was fairly strongly implied in the post I provided a link to above that you thought only one of us was scum. Note where you say that if I'm town than andrew was scum (and now I'm scum with andrew as possibly simply dumb town)

How do you explain the above shift? Is it just because I said I had a strong town read on him? (which I'd been saying yesterday too)

[Neruz]

You're starting to get the wine out there Thor, might want to avoid that.

[Thor665]

If you'd like to call me on it feel free, I am comfortable with where I am and how I'm presenting my thoughts.

[Neruz]

Just making sure you knew you were standing on dangerous ground with some of those statements.

[Thor665]

How is the ground dangerous?

[Neruz]

Invoking WIFOM is

always

dangerous, not the least of which because it gets everyone on edge. The instant you start saying things like "Scum wouldn't d X, A did X, therefore A isn't scum" you open up a can of worms. Sometimes you have to open up the can, and inevitably the wine enters the game at some point, but it's still dangerous. I know some people on MS seem to react incredibly poorly and treat directly invoking WIFOM as a huge scumtell, personally i feel differently, but i do recognise the danger of falling into trying to outguess meta.

[Thor665]

I didn't invoke WIFOM though, you did. Thoughts?

[Neruz]

*Eyebrow*

You're the IC, so you know full well what you did. Don't try that nonsense on me.

[Thor665]

Quote where you think I did and then I'll ask you to define WIFOM and then I'll explain how I didn't do it - but let's play the game just for fun please.

[Neruz]

Ugh, i don't feel like having this conversation again, especially not over something so minor. I know you know how to play the game properly so unless you want to keep pushing this i'm alright with dropping it. I've had it up to here with the damn WIFOM argument.

[andrew94]

Do you really think andrewscum is going to put so much of his rep on the line to shove through a mislynch?
Do you really think both members of the scumteam would blatantly do it while simultaneously declaring town reads on each other?

why did you drop it so fast neruz when you could have easily posted this up?

[Thor665]

@Neruz - Again, you're the one who brought it up.
I'm willing to drop it because I don't particularly find you scummy at the moment, but if you're actually going to keep it in your mind and use it later as reasoning for why I'm scummy then I'd prefer to clear it up now. So back off, but please only back off if you don't think the "WIFOM I brought up" is scummy, because I did not bring up WIFOM nor am I applying it in my case on BAZZ.

@andrew - I agree, I suspect that's what he thought was WIFOM, except that it isn't. I actually suspect the reason he dropped it was because he decided either it wasn't a scumtell worth pursuing, or because he noticed how unintimidated I was and began to question it as a scumtell altogether. I'm hoping for the latter.

Neruz still isn't likely to be scum and if he is I'd rather lynch BAZZ first, so how about you drop any wild screaming pressure you're about to unleash on him. We're scumhunting, not arguing.

[Neruz]

I don't think it is really scummy, if i did i would have said so, rather i just thought i'd warn you that it looked like you were starting to head into WIFOM territory or inviting others to do so, which is dangerous although sometimes neccessary.

Do you really think andrewscum is going to put so much of his rep on the line to shove through a mislynch?
Do you really think both members of the scumteam would blatantly do it while simultaneously declaring town reads on each other?

why did you drop it so fast neruz when you could have easily posted this up?

Because that would have started the WIFOM argument, an argument i have seen and participated in many times before and don't feel like persuing at the moment, especially not over something so minor as this.

[Thor665]

Very well, we can avoid it for now - my brief addition to the WIFOM debate is that everything *could* be WIFOM, but that WIFOM is mostly a state of mind.

Back to the game in progress - park is town, thoughts?

[Neruz]

Based on what evidence?

[andrew94]

neruz, u misunderstand me. i wasnt 'jumping on you'. i was saying that by forgeting everything huntman did and changing most if not all of his thoughts, it seems to be scummy.
finally, when i said that 'your case looks like thors case on day 1' i was pointing out that was a town tell.

now mr chkflip and bazz are in the 'hot seat'

[Thor665]

Based on what evidence?

Well, I'll be pouring you a glass here but...

The breakdown is this; everyone and their grandmothers agree that hammering can be scummy.
Probably everyone (besides maybe andrew) here if asked what is most town would say that it is a good idea not to waste time in the day, but to use all the discussion time available.
I would also hazard that everyone here would agree that if they were scum they would tend not to just drop a hammer on a guy who they had said a few posts earlier was not that scummy.

So, considering that;
park is either one of the worst scum players ever because he doesn't consider *once* how scummy his actions might look.
or
park is town who isn't worried about how scummy his actions might look because, hey, he's town.

Could also explain the scum NK, kill the dude who still suspected and was voting park, because, y'know, parkscum would kill that guy.

Thoughts?

[Neruz]

It certainly has a rich aroma about it.

All i can really say is that i disagree. It is far more likely that park isn't very good scum and thought he saw an easy lynch without pausing to really

think

about it. It happens all the time, even to the best players. Certainly if you're not paying too much attention to D1 it seems like Gude was a safe lynch, it's only when you look closer at what is actually going on that it becomes apparant that it's not.

I think, given the odds it's more likely he got impatient and slipped than it is he is town, because i honestly cannot see any town motives behind that hammer. It

might

be justifiable, except for the fact that in his very prior post he said that he thought Gude was town, he even implied in his hammering post that he was expecting a mislynch with his "it's not really a harm for the town" line which is not only wrong but terribly passive.

Even that might possibly be attributed to just being dumb, but his claim that he was 75% sure that Gude was scum

directly

contradicts those posts. Given that contradiction and the circumstances surrounding the hammer i simply cannot see any town justification for that maneuver whatsoever. park is an SE, he knows how to play, i cannot possibly see how he could, as town, make that hammer the way he did and then contradict himself later in an attempt to justify said hammer.

So, to recap, i quite disagree.

[Thor665]

park is an SE, he knows how to play

The important word you're missing is 'well'
All being an SE means is that he's completed two newbie games - there is no requirement to actually not be a derpy-da-doo-da player for that. Also, if you think he knows how to play I don't know why you're suggesting then that he's scum for his play - shouldn't he know how to play better? All we've done is identify him as playing unoptimally. I'll even agree that the contradiction is a reasonable catch (though not as much a contradiction as twittery in my mind)

Why do you think the scum team decided to set him up more via their night kill?

[Neruz]

He doesn't need to know how to play well to know that as town there was no reason to hammer Gude. Plus, judging by the topics he's posted in, he's played in 9 games other than this. And like i said, while i cannot see any reason a town player would make that hammer, i

can

see a reason for a scum player to make it, even if it is a bad hammer.

As for the night kill, i'm not going to start speculating on the reasons behind it, that is pure undiluted WIFOM and i'll not touch that until lylo. In my experience more games have been lost from trying to outguess the night kill than any other means.

[Thor665]

You won't consider NKs till lylo and then it's okay? You're silly.

I cannot see a reason town players would ever self-vote, but they do that too. I feel a little bit like you're scumhunting via Wiki too much and not considering some other levels of the game. You do realize your case as currently presented hinges on park being stupidscum but you don't seem to be willing to consider the fact he's simply stupidtown. (and park, apologies in advance for the choice in word, my preferred method would be 'unoptimally playing town/scum, but I think the excess words would detract from the thrust of the commentary.)

[andrew94]

^ read what i said about wiki being outdated and why scum win

[Neruz]

You won't consider NKs till lylo and then it's okay? You're silly.

No, i won't consider

wine

until lylo, and then only if i have to.

I cannot see a reason town players would ever self-vote, but they do that too. I feel a little bit like you're scumhunting via Wiki too much and not considering some other levels of the game. You do realize your case as currently presented hinges on park being stupidscum but you don't seem to be willing to consider the fact he's simply stupidtown. (and park, apologies in advance for the choice in word, my preferred method would be 'unoptimally playing town/scum, but I think the excess words would detract from the thrust of the commentary.)

Because the evidence does not support stupid town. Like i said before, the hammer might be justafiable under stupid town, but the contradiction is not. Town, stupid or not, do not contradict themselves like that. Contradictions are signs of lying, and town do not lie (except in rare and exceptional circumstances.)

Given the situation; everything i've said before and the fact that park really isn't very active at all which

does

come off as a little lurky, i think the evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of park scum, not park town.

You're acting like you somehow think i never considered the idea that park might be town, which is rediculous, i

started

from that position.