ATHF Mafia OVER(roles and whatnot revealed)

[Nachomamma8]

Is Magna scum?

Votecount (as of this post):
implosion: 3 (Fate, Nacho, VasudeVa) L-4
podium: 1 (implosion) L-6
Seacore: 2 (podium, Zdenek) L-5
VibeBox: 3 (GhostWriter, Magna, Seacore) L-4

[Fate]

Yes, but he's not the kind of scum we lynch D1.

[VasudeVa]

Yes, but he's not the kind of scum we lynch D1.

...Are we seriously tuned in at the same frequency for this game? Really? You and Me?

[Nachomamma8]

God, I hope not.

[Nachomamma8]

But Fate.
Promise me you will lynch him if I get lynched.
Promise me.

[Fate]

Yes, but he's not the kind of scum we lynch D1.

...Are we seriously tuned in at the same frequency for this game? Really? You and Me?

I too am afraid.

Very afraid.

[Fate]

But Fate.
Promise me you will lynch him if I get lynched.
Promise me.

I promise you.

Though if you get lynched it would be because I am already sleeping with the fishes, but I promise you nonetheless.

[Nachomamma8]

Mmmkay.
Good to know.

Back to active lurking, then. Ring me when you need my vote.

[VasudeVa]

Soo, implosion has been posting elsewhere for a while now and is actively avoiding this thread.

What do scum do again under pressure?

[Seacore]

Good enough for me,

I'll make him the lead wagon, enhanced for his pressure.

Unvote. Vote implosion

I haven't had a chance to read yet, today has been very busy. It's like they expect me to actually do work for my pay.

[implosion]

Soo, implosion has been posting elsewhere for a while now and is actively avoiding this thread.

What do scum do again under pressure?

This game is going quickly, and I'm planning to make a bigger post here.

in regards to VV moving on implosion... i still feel that GW has acted the scummiest. implosion has been saying a lot of wacky stuff, and making points that are kinda ridiculous (mostly trying to paint me as scum). but for right now, i dont think he is acting... i get the feeling that he's the type of guy that engages in logic of that quality.

Not usually. Although I think I did tunnel too much. I don't know why. I'm thinking straighter now.

Fate - after reading Fate's ISO, I just have one question. In ISO 11 (and elsewhere early in the game) you say Ghost is blatantly town. Later you say and/or imply that Nacho is blatantly town. What's your opinion about them now? You really haven't said anything about Ghostwriter recently, and his recent behavior is definitely different from his behavior early game. As for Nacho, you make a lot of posts that imply that he's town. Why? And what justifies these towntells? Nacho himself (iirc) said that sheeping you is the best play for town or scum.

Ghostwriter - interested to see who he votes for next. He realized he was tunneling podium too much, as did I, just earlier. There isn't really a whole lot to comment on... most of the game, he tunneled podium and now he doesn't have a vote up.

Magna - I do not see anything vaguely scummy about anything he has said. Nacho and/or Fate because I'm not sure which one it actually is, why do you think he's scummy? Magna reads as town, because I can't find anything that doesn't read as town among his posts. I don't really get podium's case on him either, as outlined in podium's ISO 100.

Nacho - idk. Others seem to have a meta town read on him, and that's the best I'm going to do for now I think. He knows he's actively lurking, and doesn't want to do anything about it, but I don't know if that makes

him

scum. Nacho, do you have any reads on anyone that don't come from Fate?

podium - ISO 98-100 are nice. And yes, I definitely tunneled too much, and I still don't know why. Either way, 98-100 are all very good analysis. He looks town at this point.

Seacore - ISO 30 seems kind of passive-aggressive. Also, he appears to be riding coattails more than I realized before. His podium vote does look out of place, and as for recent posts... ISO 36, he asks someone else to sum up the case on me. He isn't really doing much on his own. In post 374, he finds podium scummy. At this point, there were still 3 votes on podium. Post 389, he says he's "as guilty of tunneling podium as anybody." Then in post 397 (his next "real" post) he just altogether changes to Vibe for lurking (I think). This makes little sense to me. And now he votes me,

without even having the case against me summarized by someone else as he said he wanted

(never mind, I saw VV's post) and without reading himself. Even if the case has been summarized, Seacore is still just riding VV's tailcoat. Frankly VV could have given any reasoning at all for voting me, and Seacore still would have been able to jump on me by saying he agrees. He's vote-hopping to the biggest wagon with little reasoning, even making a point about how it's now the biggest wagon.

VasudeVa - after sanely reading through his ISO, he seems like town. Most of his reasoning is good, and as for post 176 it is a better analysis than I thought. I still wouldn't agree with a "transparent town" label on podium at that point in the game, but I understand where he's coming from.

Vibebox - needs to post more reads. Honestly, my read on what he's posted so far is completely null. A lot of things he says are just... illegible. Not much to say until he takes a stance on someone. Magna's case on him could bear weight, but not as much as Magna says it does. Vibe just hasn't posted enough content for me to get a good read on him.

Zdenek - idk, also a null read for me at this point. He just hasn't said anything that I consider... notable, either way.

Unvote, vote: Seacore

[implosion]

Alright, I'll summarize the case on implosion in this post, and then respond on stuff in the next post.

The case on implosion is as goes:

Implosion's ISO #4 is super duper scum lazy opportunistic scum vote. He puts podium into L-2 with three shit reasonings: "I think that's scummy" (It's not.), "MoI is right" (He isn't.) and "podium complains a lot" (Yes he is, how is that scummy?)

You don't seem to understand my reason for voting him. The main reason was similar to MoI's argument that he hadn't been scumhunting, and he wasn't doing much in the way of it. The complaining thing was me saying he was doing that instead of scumhunting. And I don't know what you mean by "'I think that's scummy.'"

And there's also this quote right here:

If he summed up the thread exactly as you would have, then why the hell did you never mention a thing about Ghost or Nacho? And why does him summing up the thread as you would have make him town, anyway? He did something you would have done. Cool. He called you town. Cool. And this makes him town to you because...?

In this quote, he asks why podium thinks I'm Town. Never mind that podium already explained his Vas-Town reasoning here. He didn't even acknowledge podium's reasoning why he thinks I'm town. Instead...he asks again when the question has already been answered..? This is evidence that implosion is not even reading into the person he is accusing. He is lazily hopping along the wagon without his own investigation.

I think that when I wrote that post, I missed the reasoning that you cited here. Also, you're ignoring part of the question that I asked, which was about podium's stance on Ghost/Nacho.

And then the rest of the wall is either criticizing me and Seacore with some flimsy and fallacious reasoning. I can possibly buy the seacore reasoning, albeit how thinly stretched it might be...it could be a reasonable read. His reasoning on me, however, is a logical fallacy.

Any reasoning on you that I said in that post, I now realize was indeed stupid on a more attentive/thorough reading of 176.

[Fate]

implosion has a grand total of one scum read, and two townreads. His townVibe read also went to null like a magic vanishing act.

That's pretty tech.

[Zdenek]

VibeBox's posting is terrible, but it is so bad that I wouldn't guess scum would do it. So for me the question is: is VibeBox scum gambitting? I could go either way on this question.

Magna: is one scum tell always enough to incriminate someone? Do you think that it is scummy of Fate to both think that Podium is town and that he has found one undeniable scum tell?

Since Podium asked, here is what I think of Podium's case Ghostwriter, referring to posts 254 and 259: Basically, I think Podium does a good job of arguing against GW's case on him, but doesn't give a good argument the GW is scum. I agree that GW's case on Podium was weak, but early in the game, pushing a weak case isn't necessarily scummy. Though, continuing to push it can be.

Implosion's catchup post 410: Easy questions for some people and a bunch of easily changed null reads; it could be an under pressure attempt to put some effort into avoid a lynch.

Implosion, why are you so interested in who GW votes for?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Also, just for clarity. In the AGM game, from memory, I didn't think I'd caught scum with deer. Other people kept interpreting my comment as catching scum. I was simply saying that people should avoid making 'fluff' statements like "interesting" when they should be saying "looks scummy" "looks town" "suggests a relationship between A and B" or whatever.

I understand your statement here but want to clarify. I wasn’t trying to assert that you thought you had nailed Deer as scum for that language. I’m saying that example, with others I have directly witness, support the notion that use of specific language in leiu of saying something is scummy directly is a valid scum-tell.

Here you are.

VibeBox's posting is terrible, but it is so bad that I wouldn't guess scum would do it. So for me the question is: is VibeBox scum gambitting? I could go either way on this question.

Too scum to be scum followed by fence-sitting noted.

Magna: is one scum tell always enough to incriminate someone? Do you think that it is scummy of Fate to both think that Podium is town and that he has found one undeniable scum tell?

Once I get a response to those questions I posed I’ll respond.

Implosion’s 410

is so full of scum that I now must do an ISO read on him. That much fence-sitting and non-commitment to any alignments in a large ‘catch-up’ post after being called on lurking is what I’d expect from scum not sure how to actively scum-hunt.

ISO 1 – 2 – As has been stated by VV and Podium the early attack on Seacore looks scummy. If he had made a RVS vote and not pressed the point it would be Null. But attacking the statement out of context is scummy.

ISO 4 – Votes for Podium and places a strong relationship between Podium and Seacore.

ISO 5 – Responds to Ghost’s question about his null read on Ghost and Nacho by saying he’d actually lean Town on both. He states neither has made any suspicious moves and that since Town is the majority he would go that way.

Reads as appeasement of Ghostwriter. He had listed Ghost and Nacho not 10 minutes before as neutral. Now, when questioned as to why he had that read the resulting explanation is that really they are likely Town.

ISO 6 – Further explains read on Podium as scum for not scum-hunting. Also defends his lack of scum-hunting as being busy.

ISO 8 – Jester speculation.

Making a list of suspects, saying someone is scum, taking a goddamn opinion with legitimate reasoning within the first 50 posts you make... all of these constitute scumhunting. Maybe a better phrase would be taking stances. podium has taken no stances that actually had good reasoning behind them.

In context of his latest post this is noteworthy.

The problem I have about your post is that I honestly don't think an honest, rational person could come to the conclusion that podium is obviously town. A dishonest, rational person could come to such a conclusion.

Further information for reviewing his opinion change on Podium.

And finally we have this –

podium - ISO 98-100 are nice. And yes, I definitely tunneled too much, and I still don't know why. Either way, 98-100 are all very good analysis. He looks town at this point.

@Implosion

– Are you stating that 98-100 is credible scum-hunting and has reversed your opinion (shown in your ISO up until ISO 17) on Podium.

Not usually. Although I think I did tunnel too much. I don't know why. I'm thinking straighter now.

Translation – the popular wagon on Podium fell apart and now I have to move in a different direction.

[implosion]

implosion has a grand total of one scum read, and two townreads. His townVibe read also went to null like a magic vanishing act.

That's pretty tech.

Um... learn to count. Also I asked you a question, please answer it. I said scum on Seacore, town on Magna/podium/VV/Nacho, I had questions for you and Ghost, and null on Zdenek and null on Vibe until he posts more. As I said, I really wasn't sure why I thought Vibe was town... I couldn't find anything that made him look like town, so it's null. Anyone who thinks that this is a "fence-sitting" post needs to reread it.

Implosion, why are you so interested in who GW votes for?

He was tunneling podium all game, and now he finally unvoted. I'm interested to see which wagon he goes onto next.

The problem I have about your post is that I honestly don't think an honest, rational person could come to the conclusion that podium is obviously town. A dishonest, rational person could come to such a conclusion.

Further information for reviewing his opinion change on Podium.

This post was talking about VV, and I now realize that I really wasn't thinking straight when I wrote this.

And finally we have this –

podium - ISO 98-100 are nice. And yes, I definitely tunneled too much, and I still don't know why. Either way, 98-100 are all very good analysis. He looks town at this point.

@Implosion

– Are you stating that 98-100 is credible scum-hunting and has reversed your opinion (shown in your ISO up until ISO 17) on Podium.

Yes. When I voted him, the main reason was lack of scumhunting. 98-100 are all very good scumhunting.

Not usually. Although I think I did tunnel too much. I don't know why. I'm thinking straighter now.

Translation – the popular wagon on Podium fell apart and now I have to move in a different direction.

After Nacho and then Fate unvoted, it was essentially inevitable that the bandwagon was going to disappear. Others unvoted in tandem, not just me. And when I posted, he looked like town based on posts that only came after my other semi-recent post.

[VibeBox]

Ok, I reread the thread this morning. There is still some recent stuff I need to read in greater detail, but I am mostly caught up.
I'd like to begin by issuing a mild apology to those annoyed by my posts so far. I came into this game intending to experiment with a playstyle that was curt, rude, low on words, but not lacking content. I believe I succeeded for the few posts for which I employed it, but unfortunately it just wasn't necessary this game since RVS vanished immediately (I expected heat on my posts to be a firestarter), and due to unforeseen events I simply didn't have the time to follow through. This game has become dense and complex very quickly, and to properly engage with it I am going to have to revert to my default posting style. I don't regret my previous posts though, as they had the intended effects of drawing fire while being defensible, and possibly peaking scum interest in a mislynch. We'll see.

Anyway, on to comments directed at me.

Here I dismiss the wagon on me as lazy and contentless, and outright refuse to answer a question. And yet I haven't been piled on for it!

You do understand that this is agreeing with the assertion that you were shitposting, right?

You plainly ignored the part where I already explained why this

wasn't

shitposting. I will not not be addressing that topic any more.

This is me providing my current reads, including two players as yet unmentioned (one of them being you, and you admit that I was right to say so because of your contentless post)

So you provide a Town read on a player that Fate already christened Town and then vague suspicion that looks like you just threw darts at the Wall to find your targets. There’s a song about that …

You say ‘Useful to the game’, I say “more shitposting’.

I don't really have anything to say about the issue of the "clarity" of my reasoning until post-game.
I mainly just wanted to quote you chastising me for providing reads.

It was actually "Null-Fail" before, but I wanted to push a wagon to keep us from relapsing into RVSishness. Now, idk, but he is definitely still some kind of fail.

So once again you were just pointing out something that wasn’t a scum or Town tell just because you thought we’d ‘relapse’ into RVS? Not buying that at all. RVS was dead and gone.

I come from a very RVS friendly Meta, and I passionately hate RVS. I even adopted a new playstyle partially to help end it quicker.

Yes it does.
Also, Smear.

Lulz. You are accusing me of the dreaded Smear when your original statement amounted to ‘DERP YOU IZ A MORON WHO CAN’T THINKZ’.

This was complete nonsense.

Please point out a specific inconsistency in my opinion.

You know, the whole ‘Don’t shitpost’ while doing it yourself. As already addressed above and when I first called you on it. Need it repeated a third time?

You are asserting that I am being contradictory based on not sharing your opinion.

You say "cute" (to make me look bad), I say "acting with some degree of subtlety".
I was going somewhere with that line of questioning, but your chainsawing has spoiled it.

Actually I specifically used cute because you yourself used it in your opening shitpost dismissal of accusations against you. Were you 'trying to make others look bad' yourself? For someone so steeped in the art of subtlety you sure missed that.

Fun Fact: Words can mean different things in different contexts! :teach:

Ah, the Chainsaw accusation. Nice.

Ah, the lack of rebuttal. Nice.

It is quite early in the game, and at this point "gut" is half of it. Given the low number of posts by each of them at that point, you really couldn't deduce the reasons I didn't like either of them? (oh gee, I didn't directly call you scummy, oh noooo000! Now answer.)

Here’s a hint – Mafia is a game of information exchange. Town getting their opinions and suspicions out in the open helps solidfy Town reads and nail scum. Your insistence that others guess your reasoning sucks.

We'll discuss that in post game, but I obv disagree.

I think my vote can stay right here for the moment. Because like Podium you’ve spent your time basically explaining away suspicion as opposed to looking for scum.

And unlike Podium, I've only had a handful of posts.

@ Vibebox

- In post 65 you said zinive was bad... you later clarified (in 118) that it was due to 'gut' and because there were low numbers of posts. The only thing zinive had posted, was a post making a valid point.

Yes, a valid point. A lazy, lazy, opportunistic, but totally valid point.

there were many others who hadn't given

any

substance (or even any posts). tell me why you had a bad gut feeling about zinive making a valid comment, when most others hadn't done that much.

Other people not posting has no bearing on what I think of him. He only took the time to post when he saw an easy chance to look good. (Except he even fucked that up by demanding answers without voting to back it up)

Iso 2: so far as I can see, this post has absolutely no purpose. Furthermore, it attempts to make it look like Implosion has done something wrong here.

He did do something wrong. He failed to understand a simple point.
Aside from that though, the main purpose of this post was to get under his skin and see how he reacted to it.

Iso 3: Again, refuses to explain the vote, chalking it up to him liking to discourage laziness. The fuck? This shit is scummy or stupid. No one here can read minds. Making assumptions often leads to people being wrong. Assuming the wrongs things lead to accusations and reads based on faulty info. It drags the town down. Furthermore, you're really just asking to be allowed to jump on a wagon without having to explain yourself.

I never asked anyone to make assumptions. This was partially a playstyle decision, and partly actual frustration from myself over the laziness of the votes. No goal seemed evident from them except "plz spill your guts so I don't have to think".

And then we go to Iso 5, where you ask for more posting because this is your only game. Well, hell, then perhaps you'd like to start posting the reasoning behind your reads? Nah, of course not.

Not sure where this snark came from. You struck me as a better player than this up until now. Would you really like to argue that I wasn't right to point out that several people were barely posting?

Iso 6: I don't think it's the "lingo", so much as it is the, again, lack of any reasoning behind your reads.

I think you're right here. I may have misunderstood him a bit, and been overzealous in using my new persona.

Also, there is a lack of mentioning Podium in your reads list.

I never said that was a full reads list, it was just what I was thinking at the time.

And no matter how much you alter a quoted post to say what you want, it isn't true just because you say so.

I posted my opinion in the form of an altered post. What exactly are you even getting at here?

What are your postings so far? A vote with no given reason, which looks very opportunistic. Repeated refusual to provide reasoning for said vote. Complaint towards others for making crappy posts

I'm fine with all this so far.

whilst your own lack any determinable depth.

Disagree.

Reads without stating reasons.

So? Shouldn't you be happy to have reads when half the players weren't even posting?

Iso 10: Now, this is supposedly all the things we were supposed to automatically infer from iso 3.

You are wrong to assume that I expected people to get all of that out of it. Also, I still disagree that it would be inference at all. Fate certainly seemed to "get" enough of my posts to be comfortable with me at the time.

We don't need quotes that are posted with one-liners that glean us no insight into your train of thought. If we get that, then people may begin to feel that you're hiding things from them.

Everyone here is hiding something. I cannot help that not being 100% transparent is considered scummy by some (stupid) people.

For the meantime i'll shift my vote

unvote. vote Vibe

I'd like some contribution there please.

This was right after I clearly said "I am busy and will be posting on Wed/Thur".
This is the kind of shit that makes me feel bad feelings abour Seacore.

There have been a couple mentions of Podium and I not commenting on each other. I can't really speak for Podium, but I didn't simply because I wasn't around. It's as simple as that, but for the record, while I was rereading I felt that Fate's #70 and #153 were

exact

representations of my feelings at the time.
As for now, I still feel he is very scummy. The only reason I am not voting him now is because I would feel like dog shit getting on a wagon that spurtered out with Seacore and implosion being the straglers. That's almost an argument for TownPodium.

I will also leave a reads list.
Town
Fate
Nachomamma8
GhostWriter
Zdenek

Scum
VasudeVa
Seacore
podium123456

???
The Butterfly
MagnaofIllusion
implosion

Since Fate is by far my strongest Town read, and implosion is on my ??? list, I'm going to

Vote: implosion

.
Hopefully Friday I can comb through things I had marked "of interest" in my notes, and provide analysis.

[GhostWriter]

Wait, what? I'll answer the parts of your post addressed to my post in a second, but first, I've really got to wonder why you're leaving your scumreads alone and going after someone who isn't on the list just because another player is. Yes, I know it's what Nacho's doing, but that's so clearly different that I refuse to explain it.

[implosion]

I'm at L-2, but 3/5 of the people voting me haven't actually given any justification of their own for voting me (Nacho, Seacore, Vibe). Nacho just sheeped Fate. Seacore... didn't even say anything about me. I'm not even on Vibe's scum list.

Vibe, why vote for me over someone on your scum list?

The first paragraph of Vibe's post interests me. It seems somewhat retroactive, but it makes sense. I think he's town if he actually has a reason for voting me, because I really doubt he would say something like this (that he was hoping to draw fire to end the RVS) as scum.

[Untrod Tripod]

found a replacement for Butterfly, just fyi. Thanksgiving themed flavor incoming

[podium123456]

Vibebox's analysis was ok... but i am less than impressed with his conclusions.

Why do you still feel that i am scummy.

Why did you choose to put implosion (a ??? read) at L-2, when you could have joined the seacore wagon (a scum read)?

[Seacore]

I think Vibebox's post was one of the scummiest I've seen so far.

Why vote somebod who isn't one of your scum reads when, not only do you have scum reads, but one of your scum reads is a substantial wagon (i.e. Me)?

The reason given is just as scummy, why, just because you have a town read on somebod, do you give up your own reads to sheep them? Town does not mean he's right, it just means he's town.

unvote. vote Vibebox

also, implosion, my vote on you was largely to increase the pressure on you to post since there had been the accusation that you were lurking.

I've got meetings this morning, but will post more this afternoon.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho himself (iirc) said that sheeping you is the best play for town or scum.

Or indy, for that matter.

He knows he's actively lurking, and doesn't want to do anything about it, but I don't know if that makes him scum.

Why not?

Nacho, do you have any reads on anyone that don't come from Fate?

No.

Nacho just sheeped Fate.

See ISO #1.

[Nachomamma8]

YAY FOR THANKSGIVING FLAVOR

I want cranberries.

[Nachomamma8]

The first paragraph of Vibe's post interests me. It seems somewhat retroactive, but it makes sense. I think he's town if he actually has a reason for voting me, because I really doubt he would say something like this (that he was hoping to draw fire to end the RVS) as scum.

You might be saying words here, but all I hear is "VIBE IS MY PARTNER THAT IS BUSSING ME BUT I JUST WANT HIM TO KNOW THAT HE BETTER MAKE A GOOD VOTE EXPLANATION POST SO YOU CAN COLLECT ON YOUR TOWNCRED POINTS".
nah mean?