Objection Redux - It's all over bar the shouting!

[SpyreX]

HAPPY THANKSGIVINGS

As a thanksgiving game lets play: Who gets a bullet?

WHO

[Fate]

Ah, agreed. Its hard going from gut to paper and all that, but as long as it has enough meat to get a turkey to squeal then YEEHAAW we got ourselves a liVVe one.

So...would you like me to prove I've done the same thing with Glork as town?

Regarding the whole "buddying" thing?

And...the rest of your case can't even be taken seriously.

So here is my response.

Hi Fate. How's it going ^-^?

I still don't know what you like about this girl and her post and her terrible terrible case on Papa Zito, which amounts to "he's doing pro-town things aka he's scum trying to be pro-town, especially since he was so foolish as to ask the Wise Man the ultimate question that cannot be answered."

BULLET TIME? NIGHT TIME BULLETS ---> UK, VEZOK, AGM.

[SpyreX]

Its just a gut thing.

Maybe its partially because Zito makes me worried in that "I need to remember its only page 6" kinda way.

Maybe its others like Rhinox REALLY making me paranoid and going internally PoE already.

And I still can't see a scum deflecting the mortar there versus trying to mollify you.

[UncertainKitten]

@Fate: I read VV's posts. Since he so..."helpfully" quoted you, I've read most of your case as a result. So don't even try that shit.

If you'd like to tell me what's wrong with VV in a succinct way, I'd certainly appreciate it ^-^.

See, what's great about Fate accusing me of "strawmanning" is that he's the one actually strawmanning.

The exact verbiage is that PZ is pretending to do pro town things.

You know why?

Because they look nice, but don't actually accomplish any pro town goal whatsoever

PZ has not done jack SHIT pro town, and I have no idea why you insist he does. But, I've gotten the impression you're a dumbass from your first post, so I really shouldn't expect good logic from you.

And no, you can ask Socio questions. It's just certain questions and the way those questions are phrased will never get a reply. And PZ has played enough with Socio to know better. So has VV, I believe.

[Fate]

Ok I can make a huge list of OTHER people who haven't done jack shit for town, but you apparently aren't looking at them.

Only Zito for asking Socio a QUESTION, which is apparently taboo. And your vote is STILL on Zito, who isn't going to die today. Your vote is being wasted. Also what have YOU done for town other than defend yourself from me and call out Zito on some weakass case? There's 12 other players who are asking for your attention and not your whining complaints.

Also if you think you can read my case through VV's eyes you're obviously doing it wrong. He's cherry picking scum and he doesn't even respond to my points just sort of goes off on side tangents in an attempt to strengthen his argument (see: Him debunking my past gambits as a way to avoid dealing with his scumslip if saying he would lynch me if I were to make a gambit).

But I'll play nice since I'm a pro-town force of awesome:
VV-
1. Made an awkward first post, and has spent every post since then over justifying and defending what shouldn't have been a big issue at all.

2. Fencesitting stance on Fate saying he would not worry about me because I'd either be "investigated, NK'd or vigged" if you don't see what's wrong with that list I can't help you.

3. LIED about our past meta, saying he has NEVER had a read on me. I can link several instances of him having a SCUM read on me and tunneling like a madman. Since you like evidence here are those links: 12
3 I could go on, but you see.

4. Has claimed that he would VOTE ME if he saw me doing another gambit, despite taking the next several posts to explain how my gambits are all COMING from town, regardless of their outcome. He's saying here "I can never get a read on Fate, but if I see him gambiting thats when I'll vote him down as scum" whereas, as per his own LOGIC of my gambits being pro-town motivated, he should be able to get a TOWN read on me when I gambit.

5. Voted Rhinox for no apparent reason, later justified it. Voted AGM for bandwagonning, and then called them both scum despite being a self-proclaimed slow-starter.

6. Ingeniunely said he was getting a read on Vi with his RVS wagon, but no read of Vi was ever stated except a "I'm afraid of Vi-scum" and also an incomprehensible "I know I'm not scum with Vi this game" which makes no sense at all coming from town.

7. I like having an odd number of points. VV is quite obviously scum.

[Fate]

Hey Fate, I'm sure thats all convincing and all. In case you haven't seen my sig, you should only expect posts of about this quality until about next tuesday or so. I won't have nearly the time or energy to properly respond until then.

And by the way, the "faked meta" was sarcasm, i.e. the

Vote: Rhinox

ie. #75

Also, I might not be on for too long Fate, so we need to hurry up this yellfest and get it over with.

Glad to see there are smart people in this game!

Rhinox vote is because of opportunism, but the AGM vote is...for the opportunism. I'm trying to look for scum while fighting Fate. Scum love sheeping Fate-Town, although I'm not sold on Fate-Town but in the event of Fate-Town, theres where we look.

I have no idea why Spy moved his vote on me when his vote was already on me. Could be a case of scum not caring about who they vote for.

HERE ARE SOME MORE QUOTE STRIPES:

Quote 1 is Post #75. Quote 2 is VV's ORIGINAL reason for voting Rhinox, aka his post #75. Quote 3 is VV's NEW AND IMPROVED reason for voting Rhinox, retroactiely justified, when in post 75 Rhinox WASNT being opportunistic or anything.

What really happened:
VV saw me quote Rhinox's "faked meta" line a 1000x times, and decided to vote him for that, and hoped I would change course.

VV later on realized this wasn't a valid reason to have voted Rhinox, so instead claims that he was voting him for opportunism.

VV is scum. Did I mention VV was glad to see GammaGoooo and make sweet love to him when someone finally took the stance that VV wasn't scum?

[UncertainKitten]

EBWOP: That what you

said

was pretty dumbass, rather. Attack the argument, not the person, etc. etc.

Ah, cut by Fate:

Yes, but he's actively being useless, if that makes sense. And who says Zito isn't dying today? We're TWO FUCKING DAYS into D1. So, again, don't try this shit on me. I actually fucking think and won't be bullied by a saber rattler.

Ok.

1: I did actually see this
2: I thought he justified it just fine, though admittedly I still want those meta examples of reserving judgement before I let him go on this point.
3: OK, good. To clarify, how does him lying about his meta assist him as scum? Serious question, not trying to be all tricksy. I want to know what you see scum intent wise here.
4: That made me frown as well, but unfortunately the policy lynch game isn't often proposed by scum, at least in my experience. The backtracking I *could* understand though.
5: Oooh...now we ARE getting somewhere. This is an interesting contradiction implying that the facts of the situation can change to make VV look town (according to VV)
6: Link "I know I'm not scum with Vi this game". I want context as soon as possible. This could be very serious.
7: Seven is also prime. Prime numbers are good things.

Nearly convinced here. Answer my questions satisfactorily and I'll switch to VV.

I still want AGM to answer what he saw at the time of his vote.

Cut by Fate again: ...What the hell I completely missed the Rhinox thing.

Unvote, Vote VV

If you could still answer my questions I'd appreciate it for insight.

[UncertainKitten]

L-2, btw, assuming I have the ability to count.

[SpyreX]

I like this page.

UK: You, one bullet RIGHT NOW go

[Fate]

EBWOP: That what you

said

was pretty dumbass, rather. Attack the argument, not the person, etc. etc.

Ah, cut by Fate:

Yes, but he's actively being useless, if that makes sense. And who says Zito isn't dying today? We're TWO FUCKING DAYS into D1. So, again, don't try this shit on me. I actually fucking think and won't be bullied by a saber rattler.

Ok.

1: I did actually see this
2: I thought he justified it just fine, though admittedly I still want those meta examples of reserving judgement before I let him go on this point.
3: OK, good. To clarify, how does him lying about his meta assist him as scum? Serious question, not trying to be all tricksy. I want to know what you see scum intent wise here.
4: That made me frown as well, but unfortunately the policy lynch game isn't often proposed by scum, at least in my experience. The backtracking I *could* understand though.
5: Oooh...now we ARE getting somewhere. This is an interesting contradiction implying that the facts of the situation can change to make VV look town (according to VV)
6: Link "I know I'm not scum with Vi this game". I want context as soon as possible. This could be very serious.
7: Seven is also prime. Prime numbers are good things.

Nearly convinced here. Answer my questions satisfactorily and I'll switch to VV.

I still want AGM to answer what he saw at the time of his vote.

Cut by Fate again: ...What the hell I completely missed the Rhinox thing.

Unvote, Vote VV

If you could still answer my questions I'd appreciate it for insight.

1.
2. You have your examples, go look at the earlier part of his play. He usually just lazily bandwagons in large games because he doesn't like to contribute, but in Mini games like Advance Wars he acted very pro-town early (if very horribly wrong)
3. The lie about meta assists him in this game as follows: He's trying to justify the statements he has made that result in him "not bothering with Fate." So, in his defense of why he said "Fate will just be X, Y Z I won't bother" he has tried to justify it by saying "WELL WELL! I can NEVAR read you Fate! Thats why I said I'll just let you get dealt with at night! I just can't a read on you!" But this meta is false. Can VV ever read me accurately? No, but

he has always tried to get a read on me when he is town.

This game he says "I'll avoid Fate, I don't want to butt heads with him" and botches his explanation of such a stance.
4. He wasn't proposing a policy lynch, it is the fact that his mindset ISNT it town. It is scum. He said
4a. "I can never get a read on you Fate, I won't bother with you this game. HOWEVER if I see you gambiting THEN I'll vote you"
4b. "Your gambits are always pro-town motivated, though they suck and their results fail and I dislike them."
ERGO, he admits his scum mindset in that he is looking for mislynches, and he would CERTAINLY push mine this game if I gambited (as opposed to him having a town mindset, in which he would propose to DEFEND me being one of the few alive knowing my tendency for such things, or at the very least say he would be able to GET a read on me if I gambited.)
Its got nothing to do with him saying he is a LaL fan (or implying such) and everything to do with him looking for mislynches.
5. Thank you, I'll be here all

week

20mins.
6. Link
7. Glad you agree.

[UncertainKitten]

As an aside you look a lot more like you know what you're doing when you post cases like that. I understand the whole reactions game with the flaming capital letters of doom, but some people respond better to reason. I actually didn't think you'd give me what I wanted, and am quite pleased you did.

Spy: Hmm...hard choice. Out of conceit I'd shoot Papa Zito since VV seems well on his way to being lynched.

Would it be more helpful if I told you who I

wouldn't

shoot? Because as it stands I'm getting more town reads than scum reads, and I haven't filled out a set yet.

Fate:

Oh wow, that IS really awkwardly phrased on 6. Why say "in this game" and such?
And 3 actually works *really well* with point 5.
4 could be specific policy, but the way he handled it does read a lot like...well, what you said.

Thank you ^-^.

[SpyreX]

Would it be more helpful if I told you who I wouldn't shoot? Because as it stands I'm getting more town reads than scum reads, and I haven't filled out a set yet.

Not yet.

See, banging the VV pinata and having scum-candy come out makes throwing those lists out tomorrow awesome.

[UncertainKitten]

Works for me. Admittedly it's probably obvious where I'm leaning where I lean at all. I have a cluster of neutrals, a couple strong scum and a few strong town, but nothing really *lukewarm* that still leans in a direction.

[SpyreX]

It sounds very similar to other POWERFUL MINDS.

Now thats done lets let others do some stuff. Grease the wheels and whatnot

[UncertainKitten]

Yeah. I still need answers from AGM and vezok. Just cause Fate is being awesome does NOT mean you get away without thinking!!!

[vezokpiraka]

Please don't shot me. I have a sweet role and I don't want to get shot. And I don't want Fate to get shot either.

[SpyreX]

So many things wrong there. So much past future tense.

[UncertainKitten]

Yeah...that...why would you ever do that vezok? And why do you refuse to answer my question?

[Faraday]

Vote count 1.4

Vi (3) -

VasudeVa, Papa Zito, Ellibereth

VasudeVa (6)

Sociopath, Fate, AlmasterGM, SpyreX[, Vezokipiraka, UncertainKitten

Fate (1)

Vi

Rhinox (2

GammaGooey, Magnus_orion

Vezokpiraka (2)

Jahudo, Rhinox

AlmasterGM (1)

VasudeVa

Not voting: (0)

No one

With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

Deadline is December 7th at 1pm GMT
Any mistakes in the VC point 'em out and all that.

It being yanksgiving I guess people may not be around as much, so V/la's noted and all that.

[magnus_orion]

on page 4... goddammit fate... how can you be so awesome and still have me hate you so much.
As of where I am, VV, rhinox, and vezo are the only acceptable votes. Everyone not voting these three needs to seriously reconsider. That is, unless something dramatic happens in the next two pages. Which I doubt.

[magnus_orion]

my opinions have not changed. Behold my abilities of pre-cogniscience.
Actually, you can throw GG on as a valid vote too, but not as strong as the other three.

I want answers regarding Vezok's unvote. Let's pray he's more cooperative than VV last game, or I might turn the blinders on again.

I also think the only reason rhinox has less votes than VV is cause VV is posting more. They're roughly equally scummy, and I have stronger scum vibes from rhinox via his higher scummy content:post ratio. At least, that's how it feels. It might just be a difference in content amounts between VV and rhinox.

[Ellibereth]

Please don't shot me. I have a sweet role and I don't want to get shot. And I don't want Fate to get shot either.

DIDN'T YOU DO THIS WHEN WE WERE SCUM TOGETHER IN CROSS EDGE OR WHATEVER THAT OTHER GAME RECK OR DRAM RAN THAT WE WERE SCUM TOGETHER???/
I think you did at least.
Did you?

[Jahudo]

@M_O, is your reason for finding Rhinox scummy basically the same as Gamma?

I am also concerned that Rhino would write off Vi day 1, as I would not hesitate to vote/hammer either of them if they were looking scummy day 1. Even if he would that wouldn't stop him from joining a Vi wagon for the lulz. He asked for reasons Vi was being wagoned, that seems unusual that he would think there would be ones (and why not check yourself if you're not sure) if he's also already going to place a random vote of his own (so he assumes its still rvs).

------------

2. Why am I not a bad lynch? What THE FUCK? Town doesn't have this mindset, SCUM has this mindset and uses it to say "look how town I am I consider myself a viable option for teh rope!!!" SCUM

Good point. He shows defensiveness by asking for reasons from someone not voting him. That should only be necessary when someone has been voting you but never explaining why. It sounds like he's more interested in finding how to fix his own game than doing something to read Vi's alignment.

That said I still like my vezok vote better. He needs to explain his unvote. I'll look into more stuff tonight when I have time.

[Ellibereth]

Vote: Vas

L-1 heehee

[VasudeVa]

This is literally the dumbest case ever. Props to Fate. You have outdone yourself. You make everything I do like it's the scummiest thing EVAR when it's not.

1. Made an awkward first post, and has spent every post since then over justifying and defending what shouldn't have been a big issue at all.

HELLO YOU FUCKING IDIOT. YOU'RE THE ONE PUSHING THIS IDIOCY TO ME. ARE YOU TELLING ME I SHOULDN'T DEFEND MYSELF AND ALLOW YOUR STUPIDITY TO CONTINUE?

2. Fencesitting stance on Fate saying he would not worry about me because I'd either be "investigated, NK'd or vigged" if you don't see what's wrong with that list I can't help you.

WHAT? YOU HAVEN'T FUCKING POSTED YET AT THAT TIME. I TRY TO AVOID YOU AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE. I seriously do. Having to put up with your caustic stupidity is extremely DRAINING.

3. LIED about our past meta, saying he has NEVER had a read on me. I can link several instances of him having a SCUM read on me and tunneling like a madman. Since you like evidence here are those links: 12
3 I could go on, but you see.

Whut? Dude, I never ever have a proper read on you because you are extremely unreadable. You actually expect people to get a read on you when you

yourself

are bragging that 'No one reads Fate.' *smokescreen* *spotlight on stage right*, *activate trapdoor upstage left for exit.*

4. Has claimed that he would VOTE ME if he saw me doing another gambit, despite taking the next several posts to explain how my gambits are all COMING from town, regardless of their outcome. He's saying here "I can never get a read on Fate, but if I see him gambiting thats when I'll vote him down as scum" whereas, as per his own LOGIC of my gambits being pro-town motivated, he should be able to get a TOWN read on me when I gambit.

Now this is just stupid. IF YOU ARE DOING ANTI-TOWN THINGS, YOU DESERVE TO FUCKING GET LYNCHED.

And LOL at the AntiTown =/= Scum. You're showing your lack of commonsense here.HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Scum would looovee to be anti-Town if they can get away with it. Because, you know. It screws with Town's progress? And stuff like that, yeah?

5. Voted Rhinox for no apparent reason, later justified it. Voted AGM for bandwagonning, and then called them both scum despite being a self-proclaimed slow-starter.

I don't even know why you are talking about this. . Uhh, yeah, I move my vote where I want them to be...? That means.... I'm scum? Sooo...I can't move my vote around otherwise..I'm scum?

6. Ingeniunely said he was getting a read on Vi with his RVS wagon, but no read of Vi was ever stated except a "I'm afraid of Vi-scum" and also an incomprehensible "I know I'm not scum with Vi this game" which makes no sense at all coming from town.

OOhh WOW. Look at Vi's posts! All of them null~ Does ANYONE have a read on Vi at this point? Vi has

barely

posted and if she's scum, she'll be hard to catch. I doubt that I'll have a good read on her unless she actually does stuff. Duh.

----

Now then, let's get to AWESOME. In my last post, I have stated that AGM and SpyreX are scum. (Didn't really have the time to expound due to mah dawgz needing shots and shit.)

SpyreX

SpyreX has left a bad taste in my mouth. He enters the game with a vote on me as a counterwagon stuff, maybe. That's all fiiine and dandy. Then asks: Why would Fate be Vigbait? (of course, he <3s Fate, directly contradicting his I H8 META STANCE but whutevs. That's how you play with Fate, I guess.). He quotes lots of things with 'Que?' when I don't even understand why the fuck he's even bringing them up. (And he refused to answer when I asked him.)He then votes me while his vote is already on me. I have pointed out that it's slightly scummy that he has done so. He flat-out ignores it. Doesn't even acknowledge it's existence, even if it's a pretty valid point.

And thenn~ here's the clincher. He then questions UK about who she'll vig if she had a bullet. He had suuch a huge problem with me about my choice of bullet to the faise(Fate). But proceeds to ask people what is

essentially

the same question! This is just WOW. Why would he be asking people about BULLETz to the faise anyway?

AGM:

Now then. My read on AGM is more on meta. But this guy has been in 2 games with me(Trader Mafia, Greek Mythology Mafia), modded me twice(AW:Mafia, DEFCON Mafia). Now, if you've known a certain player for that many games, it's not unreasonable that you'll get to pick up his playstyle, right?

I've been lynched D1 in the two games we were players together(we were both Town.) and I have lost BOTH games he has modded me in(In a funky fashion, might I add!).

He then....votes for me... without even acknowledging our past experience. Not even questioning or wondering 'Oh hey...maybe this is Vas fudging up again..'. He just hops along the wagon with sooo little words. If you have experience with a player whom you know as a player who messes up a lot, you would try to get a better read on him.

He didn't. He hopped along mercilessly.

These two are scum. Moar AGM votes plx.