Mini 1087 - The Dresden Files Game Over!

[Zdenek]

/confirm I think it's probably fine if the game starts with one player missing; it's happened before. My only concern is the length of time it took for the game to get to twelve players.

[Zdenek]

Vote: CityOfAss

because that is what his name should have been.

[Zdenek]

CityofAs, I take it your a pure play to win type of player. From that point of view, what is wrong with obvious wagonning day one?

HavingFitz, an OMGUS vote at this point in the game is not helpful in the least.

About the fake day-kill: DavidParker, why did you choose Maryita for the fake day-kill? Maryita, why are you giving Oops a hard time for being blase about the fake day-kill, but ignoring the fact that Antihero ignored it?

[Zdenek]

My V/LA continues because of a delayed flight due to bad weather.

LMP, how were you hoping to distinguish scum reactions from town reactions to your self vote?

[Zdenek]

CityofAs, I still want to know what is scummy about wagonning. Do you think that smarg's bandwagon vote on Fate is the only scummy thing she's done? What about HavingFitz, is his random vote at the start of the game the only scummy thing you thinks he's done?

[Zdenek]

In case no one else has mentioned it yet, Fitz' unvote in his ISO 6 is a good example of appeasement.

[Zdenek]

Way to pile onto havingfitz without actually voting.

I'm still happy with my vote on CityofAs.

[Zdenek]

My questions to DP and Maryita were answered, and saw nothing particularly wrong with the responses. I have followed up with my question to CityofAs which he didn't answer.

I'm keeping my vote on CoA because I see no reason to remove it based on his play.

[Zdenek]

Antihero, to characterize my questions as random, is a complete misrepresentation.

First of all, LMP's self-vote. I've seen scum caught day one for essentially their self-vote and subsequent reaction to questioning. I'm still definitely worried about LMP because of this early move. I'm all the more concerned because when he made the self-vote, we'd already had the fake vig kill so we were well on the way out of RVS. The fact that he didn't have a plan to determine scum reactions from town reactions makes me think that he was just reaction fishing which was unnecessary at that point in the game.

I've also seen scum nearly caught day one (lynched day two) for ignoring a day kill. Which is what you did and I was surprised that Maryita didn't call you on it, and I wanted to know why. If it wasn't for the fact that I find your play otherwise townish, I'd be a lot more concerned by it.

About DavidParker, after making a move like the fake vig kill, he's likely to be labelled as town by almost everyone, and I didn't want to just leave him alone after it.

As far as my questions to CityofAs are concerned, I'm still waiting for him to answer them, and they too are not random.

[Zdenek]

What's reaction fishing? And what does that say about LMP's alignment?

What I mean is that he self-voted to try to get a reaction, but didn't have a plan to determine what constituted a scummy reaction from a town reaction, so really it was just an attempt to get the game started. As far as what it says about his alignment, I think self votes are safe because they avoid started arguments and are more likely to be done by scum than town in RVS (at least in my experience this is true) and it bothers me that made this move late in RVS (arguably after RVS) so I'd say it makes me lean scum on him.

What? I find this very hard to believe someone was "caught" for ignoring a fake daykill. Link if completed?

Not completed.

How was anybody supposed to know this?

It was a guess, but every time I've seen someone play in that manner, they've been labeled as town, at least by everyone except new players. Also, I think the reasoning behind them being town is pretty solid because there are not many scum motivations to make a fake day vig kill draws a lot of attention to yourself and you could easily make an enemy in the game. However, because of this, there is one big scum motivation, people will think that you are town if you do it, so to not ask something of a player who does it is a mistake, just to see if anything comes up.

[Zdenek]

I will note that because of my vote I'm leaning town on Antihero and CityofAs

I'd like you to explain this logic because I have never seen it before. How can someone's vote be the reason for their reads?

[Zdenek]

Why am I having to interrogate you to get this? I don't remember it being this hard in Night watch.

As LMP points out, my reasons for being suspicious of him weren't great, so I was hoping to keep them to myself for a bit longer. However, now we have his reaction to them:

This is absurd. The daykill was an OBVIOUS JOKE. Anyone with an IQ above single digits could tell it wasn't real. Why was it worthy of discussion or having an opinion of it at all? I also fail to see how it was by itself worthy of driving us out of RVS, or why more than one person taking actions that can drive us out of RVS is bad. Your suspicions are ridiculous.

You're ignoring the entire point. If you go back and read, you'll see that the game was well on it's way out of RVS. Fitz was chastised for making a random vote a few posts below yours.

Making a random vote is move that avoids conflict, doesn't put pressure on anyone, and allows scum to take extra time before making a serious vote. The scum motives are much stronger than the town motives and the town motive that could have applied, hardly does in your case.

Unvote CityofAs
Vote LMP

[Zdenek]

CityofAs, I think that you'll find that both town and scum blatantly bandwagon and point it out. I kept my vote on you because I had no read on you and no one better to move it to at the time.

[Zdenek]

Danny, to what extent do you trust your "asks me the reasons for my vote so he must be town" town-tell?

@Zd: You make me laugh.

Meta: tells me that my vote is in the right place, what was it last time I caught you . . . (looks back at old game) . . . "simply stunning."

[Zdenek]

I refuse to read these stupid walls of text.

Think that's scummy? Lynch me.

I hope everyone is catching Z's intent to vote-park. Keep in mind that the only other reason for the vote was that stupid beginning self-vote by LMP. No mention of LMP's fail push on marge? Z's going after LMP for a bunch of crappy reasons. And LMP's response is pretty much "lol, no". I'm smelling diesel.

I wish I knew what "I'm smelling diesel" meant, but attacking me for voting LMP? Look at what we have in this game:

antihero, DavidParker, Fitz, Oops and Smarg all strike me as town, and a lot would have to change for me to push any of their lynches today.

CityofAs has barely posted but his ISO 3 makes me think that he is probably town because it feels authentic.
DDD - I dislike his "asked me about the reasons for my vote" town-tell that he seems to be using.
Enigma - his ISO 6, which takes him up to page 8 is fluffy: we should keep an eye on Parker for using she, and sarcasm has a deeper meaning?
Fate - I'm willing to wait and see what he has to say before passing judgment.
LMP - I've made what I think here clear.
Mariyta - aside from the fact that her vote is still on Fitz seems pretty townie to me, but she's apparently got some cases coming up. Needless to say, I'm interested.

So at the moment, I am waiting for some people to post, and I see Enigma and LMP as the scummiest. As far as LMP's arguments with others go, I'm holding off on commenting for the time being, but I think that the self-vote and his reaction to my accusation are both pretty scummy: obvious scum motivation for the self-vote and his defence missed the point.

[Zdenek]

I refuse to read these stupid walls of text.

Think that's scummy? Lynch me.

I hope everyone is catching Z's intent to vote-park. Keep in mind that the only other reason for the vote was that stupid beginning self-vote by LMP. No mention of LMP's fail push on marge? Z's going after LMP for a bunch of crappy reasons. And LMP's response is pretty much "lol, no". I'm smelling diesel.

antihero, DavidParker, Fitz, Oops and Smarg all strike me as town, and a lot would have to change for me to push any of their lynches today.

RUJK? That is your town list? RLY? Please explain what is townie about fitz and smarg.

Why I think smarg is town:
Her initial vote on Fate. I think scum would choose an easier path.
I think all this business of pushing people to answer questions and provide reasons for their votes is townie because scum might prefer to keep their mouths shut.

I'd like to point out that Smarg had posted a just twice before CoA's vote, and I think LMP was right to call him on voting her, but to call her scummy for questioning DP and RVing fate is a bit much.

I think the best point against Smarg is her vote on DP.

LMP when you attack her for that in Post 119, you call it the "Goldilocks of scum hunting" when it was a garbage vote for no good reason. Why would scum aim for the "Goldilocks of scum hunting?" Her vote was bad, but I think calling it that is pointless rhetoric.

Well, after a read through of Fitz, his earlier play was scummy: the RVS timidity; the buddying with Mariyta, being called on it, and then OMGUS voting her. On the other hand, I don't that scum under pressure would draw attention to themselves like that. The other cases on him seem to be based on his making an RVS vote despite not liking RVS and his reaction to the day-vig. Is that right? Anyway, I think he's been under a lot of pressure and hasn't responded badly. Now, if someone wants to show me that I am wrong, go ahead.

After this read through, I still think Fitz and Smarg are town; although, perhaps I am less convinced than I was before. Unless someone shows me Fitz really floundering or lying in his walls, I'm comfortable with my read on him. Looking over a past game with town-Smarg, she was overly concerned with people providing cases in that game too, so while meta arguments are fairly weak, this combined her play in this game makes me feel okay about her too.

Preview edit: Oops' post. I think Oops is defending LMP from the weaker parts of the case against him. That said, I agree with his points, except the third as should be clear from the above.

[Zdenek]

Danny, to what extent do you trust your "asks me the reasons for my vote so he must be town" town-tell?

Well I'm not going to bet the game on it, but it seems a decent place to start. I think genuine curiosity make more sense from town especially when the counterpoint of Mari and Smargret provides such a contrast and so much more likely to be scum driven.

It would totally not surprise me if Zdenek was scum; he asks me a question and then before I even get a chance to answer he's already issuing an opinion on the matter? That suggests to me that he's not interested in my motivations or the truth of the matter and just want to stake out a position.

How the hell do you get from me not liking your town-tell to me not being interested in your motivations or the "truth of the matter?"

[Zdenek]

So, pretty much, that initial self vote is what did it for you?

No. It was mostly his reaction to my case on him where his defence completely missed the point.

You agree with his defense of LMP, yet you are voting LMP?

Go back and read the thread. If you still don't understand, replace out.

1. HOLDING OFF POR QUE? IF YUORE GONNA HAVE TWO SUSPECTS AND ONE IS VLA YOU BETTER FUCKIN COMMENT ON THE OTHER
2. OBVIOUS SCUMMOTVIATIONS IZ WUT AGAIN?
3. YOU HAVE TOO MANY TOWN READS THIS EARLY YOU BUDDYMCWALLFLOWER.

I have more than two suspects, LMP and Enigma are just my favourites, and I have commented already.

Obvious scum motivations for a self-vote: avoid ruffling feathers, it allows scum to wait longer to place a serious vote so they have a better assessment of the situation when they do place a vote, it gives the appearance of scum hunting.

This is enough to be on your town list?

That plus meta is enough for me to not want to lynch her today. I see in her posts the same concerns and types of votes that she had as town, and while they could be faked, I'm not getting that impression.

He exhibited "RVS timidity", yet you claim that you don't think scum would draw attention to themselves. Isn't "RVS timidity" scum trying not to draw attention to themselves?

Not really. I just voting someone for a having certain avatar is closer to trying to not draw attention to yourself. This is something else and it could be scummy, but it's not so clear.

In other words, your post here implies that there are more reasons to dislike Fitz's play than to like it, and yet STILL you say "I still think Fitz [is] town". ILLOGICAL. That makes 2 town reads that not only do I disagree with, but I can't even understand the logic in your position.

Well, I've tried to say what I think of Smarg above. With Fitz it's like this, he made his timid RVS vote and took flack for it. Now, scum would be more worried about attracting attention, but he goes out and OMGUSes Mariyta, which clearly draws attention to himself. My main feelings about Fitz come from his later posts. He seems reasonable, he isn't flailing and he hasn't been caught lying. So, at the moment, I am not inclined to push for his lynch now.

I get there pretty easily when you ask for my input and then go ahead and issue a statement about the same topic without waiting for my input suggesting that the asking of the question is for show and you'd already decided what your opinion on the matter was going to be regardless of what I said.

The fact that I didn't like it shouldn't have come as a surprise.

Anyway I think it's time for a crap posting lurker wagon.

Unvote LMP
Vote Enigma

[Zdenek]

Preview Edit: Oh hai, please list reasons for that vote so it can help me get into the game.

You've just discussed them in your post. Are you paying attention at all?

And your most recent post:

I'm feeling LMP and fitz as a scum vs town fight. The OMGUS jumps just seem way too blatant, now all we need to do is figure out which one is which.

but in the next paragraph we have

nearly all the wall posts quote arguments are useless bickering

What do you propose we do to figure out which of them is town and which is scum? Reading the walls obviously isn't going to work.

[Zdenek]

Fitz does something scummy. He comes under attention pressure. While under that pressure he does more bad things. Your logic is that he can't be scum because scum would act better under pressure?

That is not my rationale. It's the exact thing that he did, and it's not that scum would act better, it's that I think scum would have acted differently.

Die, scum, die.

Have you read Enigma's posts?

[Zdenek]

So because you think scum would have reacted differently, it's enough to ignore the scummy behavior AND CALL HIM TOWN!? That's what is so illogical. I don't see how you can admit to the bad things, but because he behaved in a way you think incosistant with scum, you call him TOWN. AT the least wouldn't it be a more neutral read? Or leaning scum? WHY ARE YOU CALLING HIM TOWN!? IT IS ILLOGICAL.

I wrote my reads post too hastily. I've viewed Antihero as being likely town for awhile, so I was trying to co-operate with him. I agree that saying null on Fitz makes more sense, but the only thing I ever really wanted to say was that I am not going to push for his lynch today.

[Zdenek]

Because I can't seem to stop this wagon, I'm going to say that I would not be an acceptable lynch today. Please unvote.

[Zdenek]

Because I can't seem to stop this wagon, I'm going to say that I would not be an acceptable lynch today. Please unvote.

OH HEY LOOK OBVSCUMPOST

Or townie with a role that won't benefit the town if they force him to claim.

[Zdenek]

Oh well looks like you're dead to rights and need to claim now ANYWAYZ

I'm at L-2. I've soft claimed, and hopefully some people will have some sense.

[Zdenek]

I will claim when I am at L-1.

I made a mistake earlier, I've admitted it, and I'd like to move on. Also, my perspectives about who should be lynched haven't changed. I just stated my reads in too strong a way. Making an error like this is hardly telling.

As far as scum on my wagon go: I still think LMP is scum.

Looking at LMP's recent posts, he makes a good case on me erring in my judgment of Fitz. What does he expect me to do, continue to argue, when it's clear that I've made a mistake? That would be scummy. I made an error and I admitted it. The question now comes to him, what does it say about my alignment? He doesn't provide any sort of analysis, all he does is vote and make a sarcastic comment. I see this as him pushing a lynch without being concerned about whether the player is town or scum.

[Zdenek]

Claim: Waldo Butters. Town. One-shot Bullet Proof

[Zdenek]

Vote: Zdenek

String 'em up, boys.

What is wrong with you?

[Zdenek]

Now you will be shot and proven: by the vig.

What vig?

VOTE: Oopidstay

You're too late. Zed's dead, baby, Zed's dead.

You're a double voter?

[Zdenek]

In case I am dead. I saw Mariyta online in the forum long after my claim, so she probably saw it, but still decided to neither unvote nor comment.

[Zdenek]

Butters? Bulletproof? The flavor already doesn't fit.

Something else that doesn't fit:

If I haven't read the books, am I going to be able to follow the TV show?

Butters? Bulletproof? The flavor already doesn't fit.

Explain yourself.

[Zdenek]

Um, I watched some episodes of the first season of the TV show since I made that post, mr monkey poo flinger.

Butters is the coroner, right?

"He appears briefly in Changes, when he is called over by Molly Carpenter, and ends up trying to revive Harry Dresden with a defibrillator after his heart stops. A hitman then plants two rounds into his back. Butters survives because prior to coming over, he put on a bullet proof suit because of Harry's track record with trouble."

http://dresdenfiles.wikia.com/wiki/Waldo_Butters

Mr. I'm going to attack a claim for no good reason.

[Zdenek]

Antihero, to what extent do you want to lynch Fate today or just make sure everyone keeps the possibility that he is scum in mind? Also, do you mind saying why you unvoted Mariyta in Post 70?

I think that it is a odd that Mariyta attacked Fitz aggressively on page three for not having any opinions, but she hasn't commented on Enigma's participation.

Smarg never commented about Antihero failing to answer her question about him voting her for asking a question that was similar to one that he asked later. This is in contrast to the importance that smarg has stated she has for people answering questions.

Because I can't seem to stop this wagon, I'm going to say that I would not be an acceptable lynch today. Please unvote.

1-shot BP also makes no sense with this statement. It isn't like the scum were gonna NK you anyways.

I was hoping that people would unvote, and I'd get shot by scum PR hunting.

"Zdenek is caught giving a bullshit town read, and now trying to cover up his tracks when he realizes that someone has shown how nonsensical the read is. This indicates a conciousness of guilt

It just indicates that I am willing to admit when I've misspoken.

As far as this whole vig business goes, I think it would be a good idea for the vig (if there is one) to shoot me before we get to MYLO, or we can do whatever Fate has in mind to confirm me before then.

[Zdenek]

Where's Antihero's question?

It was a question that you asked him:

Hey DP. If you were actually a dayvig, how would you use your kill?

Isn't this essentially the same question you voted me for asking?

I feel like Mariyta's Enigma vote is just to avoid answering my questions about why she let Enigma's lurking slide earlier when she attacked Fitz for a useless post. I also agree with Fate in that it could very well be just to avoid being on the Smarg wagon, but I think this could be either because she doesn't want to bus yet or because she doesn't want to be on the same wagon as a scumbuddy. I'd also like to point out how she completely stood back from the arguments between Fitz and others, which makes she think that she wasn't taking her own argument against him seriously.

I'd be happy with Mariyta's lynch today.

So LMP attacks me for a change of heart, but let's DavidParker's change of heart about me between posts 383 and 397 slide completely. Inconsistent scum.

Zdenek’s claim doesn’t fit with the “omg claim will make my ability useless” paranoia.

I tried to make it useful by soft-claiming early.

I would still be happiest with an LMP lynch today.

Unvote
Vote LMP

[Zdenek]

Mod: I will be V/LA until Monday

[Zdenek]

Lynching me is stupid, since there is a chance that I could be confirmed as town later in the game.

[Zdenek]

I agree with what others have said about Mariyta not participating with the alliance. It is particularly unhelpful to not go along with it, and to not offer up any alternatives.

Unvote
Vote Mariyta

[Zdenek]

Actually, you know what, I

will

go along w/ the "alliance."

UNVOTE: Enigma, VOTE: Zdenek

For this:

It is particularly unhelpful to not go along with it, and to not offer up any alternatives.

Expecting someone to vote for people they do not feel are scum AND refusing to acknowledge the vote they have made are both ridiculous.

So Mariyta's even scummier. Here she completely ignores the fact that my argument wasn't original, but was first stated by DDD. If she actually thought it was scummy, she would have commented on DDD's post, but she didn't. So she's not interested in figuring out who the scum are, but just wanted to find a reason to move her vote.

LMP is still scum, and now additionally for the fact that he ignored Mariyta's convenient change of heart.

[Zdenek]

I think we lynch either Lateralus or LMP today.

mod: V/LA until Jan. 4

[Zdenek]

If that's all you have to say you may as well be lynched in abseentism

I think LMP is scum for the same reasons as yesterday, and he's not doing anything to change my mind.

As far as Lateralus goes, I don't have the time to make a case now because of family obligations, but I am far from convinced that HF is scum, I know that I am not, and I'd be surprised if all the scum were on Smarg's wagon. Also, from yesterday, I think Antihero's applications of certain scum-tells lacked consistency.

[Zdenek]

After reviewing Lateralus' case on me, I've decided that it is too stupid for scum to come up with, so he is probably town. Since I've now had general town reads on both him and antihero, I won't be voting for that slot today.

Vote LMP