Objection Redux - It's all over bar the shouting!

[Fate]

Hmmmmm sure llooks you DEFENDED VV in that post DOESN'T IT? I thought you just wanted him to burn. And if that were true you be voting him. OR advocating a wagon on Rhinox INSTEAD OF YOURSELF, which you did

[Fate]

Yes, I'm willing to watch VV burn because I don't have evidence suggesting he is that incompetent townie. He may very well be scum. I just think Rhinox has more of a chance of being scum.
Also, more wagons are quite useful, please, feel free. I would be quite pleased, because, as you pointed out, the day would be longer.

once again for sake of completeness, because I'm being misunderstood, I simply wish rhinox to post to check my suspicions (hence verify or nullify). I may find rhinox's towniness outweighs his prior scuminess.

"Please feel free to wagon me"

NOT

"Let's wagon rhinox instead I implore you, you even call him ur #2 fate!"

[magnus_orion]

Did I say I wanted him to burn? No, I said I was willing to watch him burn.
I want rhinox over VV atm.
Try and keep things straight okay?


I would prefer a wagon on rhinox over myself. But a wagon on me or anyone else certainly wouldn't hurt in the information dept. I already got a conditional read on AGM out of his vote on me.

[Fate]

A conditional read based on VV being TOWN. Why the fuck would you spin your read THHAT WAY IF YOU THINK VV IS SCUM AS PER YOUR OWN DAMN READS?

You first thought was agm is town if vv is, NOT agm is vvs scumbuddy making leaps of faith.

WHICH IMPLIES YOU KNOW VV IS FUCKIN FLIPPIN TOWN AND YOU DON'T GENIUNE?Y SUSPECT HIM

[magnus_orion]

no it doesn't.
It implies that if I'm wrong about what I think VV might be, I have more info on AGM.

[Faraday]

Vote count 1.8

Vi (1) -

Papa Zito

VasudeVa (5)

Sociopath, Vezokipiraka, UncertainKitten, Ellibereth, SpyreX

Fate (1)

Vi

Rhinox (2

GammaGooey, Magnus_orion

Vezokpiraka (2)

Jahudo, Rhinox

AlmasterGM (1)

VasudeVa

magnus_orion (2) [i[AlmasterGM Fate[/i]

Not voting: (0)

No one

With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

Deadline is December 7th at 1pm GMT
Any mistakes in the VC point 'em out and all that.

[UncertainKitten]

@AGM: Really? I thought SpyreX explained his. Can you link the post where you perceive he hadn't?

Anyway, your answer is reassuring.

more info = more things to call scummy.

You should be lynched for this right fucking here, magnus. That's about the scummiest damn thing I've seen said in this game so far.

@Fate: What the fuck why do we agree!?

@m_o: Isn't that convenient. Because you see, Fate posted some REALLY solid not noisified summaries of his case. TWICE even. But you so conveniently ignore these...why?

@m_o: Sure it would. But it really has

no fucking bearing on the current situation

. (Re: the innocent child thing which came out of nowhere)

@Fate: DAMMIT! QUIT DOING THAT >=[!

...and then m_o posts a fucking list of irrelevance. WONDERFUL!

Yanno what? Fuck this shit.

Unvote, Vote Magnus_orion

Congrats Magnus. You may have saved VV for another day. That's what you wanted, wasn't it?

There's not a whole lot else to say. Even ignoring the VV behavior a lot of mango's "views" this game are WAY more beneficial to scum.

[magnus_orion]

You should be lynched for this right fucking here, magnus. That's about the scummiest damn thing I've seen said in this game so far.

What, why?

Congrats Magnus. You may have saved VV for another day. That's what you wanted, wasn't it?

No. That my be an incidental consequence of what I'd prefer. But I'm not opposed to his lynch. I just support a different one more.

There's not a whole lot else to say. Even ignoring the VV behavior a lot of mango's "views" this game are WAY more beneficial to scum.

how so?

@UK: what's your opinion on rhinox?

[UncertainKitten]

@m_o: It's the attitude you take. It's not a "more information to figure out who is scum", your language CLEARLY indicates you are interesting in trying to use quantity over quality to try to pin someone to the ground that's innocent. I don't know how to stay what I mean more elegantly since that doesn't feel quite right but...ugh, that statement just exuded "This is why scum want longer days, and I'm scum who wants a longer day"

I have no opinion on Rhinox since he hasn't posted JACK SHIT. What he has posted has been unimpressive, but there have been comparatively worse people, IMO.

I will certainly be assessing him closely when he DOES post.

[AlmasterGM]

m_o: It's the attitude you take. It's not a "more information to figure out who is scum", your language CLEARLY indicates you are interesting in trying to use quantity over quality to try to pin someone to the ground that's innocent. I don't know how to stay what I mean more elegantly since that doesn't feel quite right but...ugh, that statement just exuded "This is why scum want longer days, and I'm scum who wants a longer day"

The best part is mangus ADMITS THIS.

VV just has more thread noise,

which invariably leads to an increase in the amount you read someone as scum.

read, "we need longer days so Rhinox can post more and I can find more reasons to call him scummy and derail the VV lynch muahahaha."

[vezokpiraka]

unvote
vote Magnus

You sir are way to scummy to not be lynched today.

[magnus_orion]

That statement was related to how VV has posted more than Rhinox, not in reference to how I want longer days. But the interpretation in the direction you indicated is certainly available, although unintended.
Specifically I feel if Rhinox had been posting to an extent that was equal to the extent to which VV has been posted, Rhinox would definitely have more votes on him, based on extrapolation from what he has posted. If that makes sense?
I think the best way of framing the idea I'm trying to get across is the scumminess/content description I've been using.

read, "we need longer days so Rhinox can post more and I can find more reasons to call him scummy and derail the VV lynch muahahaha."

read I believe if Rhinox posted more people would see him as scummier than VV.
But if Rhinox comes in here and, as fate put it, posts gold, well, that'll change my opinion. But based on what he has posted, I think he is more likely scum than VV.

preview edit: you gonna get back to me on those reads vezok?

[magnus_orion]

I suppose a more brief way to frame my response to these criticisms is that they are confusing more information in general with more information about an individual. I prefer more information in general. But if its all concerning 1 individual, then the likelyhood that individual will be percieved as scummy by the town rises. I don't prefer such a skewed increase in information.

[Vi]

grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

AAAAAA

AAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH

VI THIS IS WHY YOU SHOULD FUCKIN HAMMER WHEN ASKED. WHAT SORT OF RAINBOWS AND GUMDROPS DID YOU EXCEPT IN 48 FUCKIN HOURS?

I think everything up to this point answers that in part.
There are still a few loose ends, though - for one thing, VasudeVanHalen is noticeably absent right now.

----

Hey you, Pikachu. When I said 48 hours to hammer, I meant

hammer

. What happened to VV, or what made m_o a relatively better choice?

THIS IS TO ALMASTERGM
RANULF TO PIKACHU
COME IN, PIKACHU

I have no opinion on Rhinox since he hasn't posted JACK SHIT. What he has posted has been unimpressive, but there have been comparatively worse people, IMO.

what

read, "we need longer days so Rhinox can post more and I can find more reasons to call him scummy and derail the VV lynch muahahaha."

WHAT
No seriously, this last one is calling Rhinox probTown. I'd

love

to hear the reasoning behind that one.

----

I already got a conditional read on AGM out of his vote on me.

A conditional read based on VV being TOWN.

I missed something.

----

m_o - You're actually very calm right now, in spite of being quadrupleflamed. Why?

[AlmasterGM]

You did NOT say that. You said,

which

invariably

leads to an increase in the amount you read someone as scum.

Invariable means ALL THE TIME. Which means more posts ALWAYS means somebody looks scummier. This is magnified by the fact that you use the word "someone" instead of "VV," further suggesting that this applies ALL THE TIME. Not just to VV/Rhinox.

[Rhinox]

back-ish but still limited access til tonight/tomorrow. making this post at work.

First off,

unvote: vezok

. Softclaim is meh and she still hasn't done anything but there are better lynches.

VV vs Fate: I don't know how much specifics I can get into without quotewalls and making everyone's eyes gloss over, but I think Fate has made some good points and I think VV has done an excellent job making himself look really bad. I don't know what to think of VV because the last and only other time I saw him he was VT and VI. He didn't really care to defend himself and just said he was lazy and played into the VI defense with meta and links and whatnot. This game he's super paranoid about getting lynched and goes toe to toe with Fate (props for that) which is completely different from what I know of his town play. He is still using meta and quotes for defense, and WIFOM with the whole "scum wouldn't claim VT" stuff. I think he's not legitimately trying to find scum either and is mudslinging/going for "easy" (as in a hail mary maaaaaybe I can make a decent case on these people to save my own skin) lynches.

But what is really giving me pause is that there is little resistance to the lynch and no real counterwagon option. Either every scum are bussing (imo, likely if VV is scum) or maybe VV really is town.

edit: ok there is a counterwagon now, wrote the above before page 12/13-ish. More below.

-----------------

Fate is fate. I feel like /inv 11 I got the Fate apetizer portion and now I've got the whole dinner. Had I known nothing about fate, I would say only town who really think they got scum go after someone D1 like fate went after VV. But I do know enough to know that this is how fate plays. In this particular case, I feel like the whole situation just appeared out of thin air - Fate was basically throwing around shovels and VV was the first to start digging. At this point, I don't know if fate really truly believes VV is scum, doesn't care if VV is scum and is lynching him for the wagon analysis tomorrow, or is scum going after the player that is easiest to rile up.

------------------

Spyrex and I can be friends again. In /inv 11 scum-spy was sitting in the background taking sniper shots at VV all game and not looking anywhere else. Now, he's backing up arguments and still looking elsewhere with all the bullet talk earlier. While its feasable given the sililarities in the playerlist that scum-spy could alter his play or he was simply less focused or off his game last time, for now I'm comfortable leaning town on spy. Also, law of averages, etc. (the last sentence was joking, btw).

-----------------

I'm leaning scum on Jahudo thus far. I know jahudo to play pretty cautiously as town, but he usually chimes in on all the important issues with sound arguments. All I recall from jahudo so far is saying something reasonably accusatory towards vezok, then waiting around for vekok, then more replying about vezok. It is wierd that jahudo hasn't really chimed it at all regarding VV or fate or the claim or anything considering VV

is

was L-1 and nearly ready to be hammered. I would expect town jahudo to have more to say about it, and be definitively either willing to hammer, or against the lynch. ok, doublechecking his iso, he makes some vague comments about it in isos 1, 3, and 4, but nothing that says he either likes or dislikes a VV lynch, only vague thoughts and comparison to a vezok lynch. Also weird that jahudo hasn't mentioned the vezok soft claim or taken that into consideration.

------------------

UK is also scummy. Starting out by voting the mod is just a RVS cop out.
Iso 1: "Because Vi is a terrible wagon and shouldn't happen." - similar early response to the Vi wagon as me only UK takes it a step farther and calls it terrible.

There was some talk about my response to the wagon being scummy and without going back to find the individual posts I'll just explain that I was just acknowledging the RVS wagon yes I realized it was just jokey/random/nonserious or whatever you want to call it but I didn't just want to ignore it. I felt like it would be a good thing to just talk/argue about to get the game started of course that was before Fate jumped in and really got the game started. If that doesn't answer all the questions about my talk about the Vi wagon then ask me again.

Back to UK:
Iso 2: comment about grammer in the win condition aka fluff.
Iso 3: "Because Vi is a lot more valuable than 50% of you put together, as town or scum. She will not be lynched today." - this is pretty scummy if Vi is scum she is not more valuable than anyone. "I'm fine with lynching her any day after though." - why is it not ok to lynch Vi D1 but ok any other day, all else being equal? Also, still voting the mod aka not voting anyone.
Iso 4: "@PZ: Well, you see, someone has to *say* she won't be lynched today or the magic doesn't work. And even if she's scum we can find her stupider scum buddies that out her as scum first." - this seems like backpedaling - in iso 3 she was giving actual reasons for not lynching Vi, and now she's just doing it because thats the "due process" or something but then also gives another real attempt at a reason that doesn't make sense to me. Why does it matter which scum we lynch first? Wouldn't it make sense to lynch the smarter/more dangerous scum first?

then there is some stuff which is null so I won't iso and then...

iso 9: "OK, here's my conclusion right now. VV is acting like I act when I'm very frustrated town because, as he put it, some moron is screaming in my face."
iso 12: "If you'd like to tell me what's wrong with VV in a succinct way, I'd certainly appreciate it ^-^.

See, what's great about Fate accusing me of "strawmanning" is that he's the one actually strawmanning."

And then out of no where:

iso 13: "Nearly convinced here. Answer my questions satisfactorily and I'll switch to VV.

I still want AGM to answer what he saw at the time of his vote.

Cut by Fate again: ...What the hell I completely missed the Rhinox thing.

Unvote, Vote VV"

So basically those last 3 posts UK doesn't see the case and is trying to defend VV not by explaining why VV is town but by going after fate for not being succinct or convincing enough, and then after fate lays it out in the whole 1, 2, 3 list, UK suddenly sees the light. And the best part is this all happened in only a couple hours. It just seems fake.

and then by

iso 17: "Just cause Fate is being awesome does NOT mean you get away without thinking!!!" looks like heavy buddying up to fate.

And I also don't like being sniped at while I'm on V/LA, such as iso 21, and this includes M_O too. Actually, finally making it to the current page, MO is a worse offender of that.

--------------------

Speaking of MO, he spends a lot of time going after VV early, then stalls the lynch because longer days are better, and then I feel he is opportunistically going after me because I'm not there to answer in real time. But he's not opposed to a VV lynch. But the more he's pressed, he goes from being ok with a VV lynch but maybe thinking I'm possibly scummier to "I want rhinox over VV atm" seems like a shift in view that was not justified by anything I or VV has said but just came about because he was being pressured. And repeating over and over that I might be scummier but I have to post more first for you to be sure isn't going to make me post any sooner than I'm physically able to. Thats why I feel its kinda opportunistic sniping - you keep saying it over and over. Say it once, I'll respond when I get back.

Responding to MO's points against me:

"Here Rhinox randomly decides to vote VV for the sake of avoiding a Vi wagon during the RVS despite having already made a random vote against SpyreX. This is highly disconcerting, as Rhinox should have no concern involving Vi's wagon." - Whether or not I already randomed spyrex is irrelevent. My VV vote was not random it was for a counterwagon. And it was a good counterwagon, based on knowing how VV played in /inv 11, I felt he would at the very least not be helpful to the town.

"It becomes increasingly obvious that Rhinox didn't have any additional reasoning behind his second RVS vote, since he drops it the second there is a different case on the table." - vezok was a better counterwagon, voted for game related reasons rather than meta related reasons.

"While he responds to Fate's comments, he leaves open the other situations going on around him, in particular his opinion on VV is left ambiguous. While his comment could be implied as an advocation of defense of VV, it could also merely be a joke, and the fact that he leaves this ambiguous is highly unsatisfying." - I didn't have an opinion of VV at that point, so it was meant to be ambiguous.

"The reason I find this more compelling than the case against VV is that the rest of Rhinox's posting is mere fluff. And very light fluff at that. VV actually made an effort to make points and do things, etc. His posting takes up a great deal more space than that of Rhinox, hence he has a greater amount of content, so more to pick at. The end result, as I stated before, is that if we divide scumminess by content for these two individuals, we find Rhinox has a much higher ratio, hence why I find the case against him more compelling."

Well like I said, at the beginning of the game, I felt like possibly Fate was just tossing around some shovels and VV was the first to start digging himself into a hole. I don't so much think that VV was trying to do stuff as he was panicking. I don't feel like I was posting any more fluff than anyone else in the first couple pages in the game. The only difference being I was limited access from the start of the game. By rights maybe I shouldn't have posted at all until I could give full effort but I felt I should at least attempt to participate at the start rather be completely non-existent until now.

I think the whole scumminess ratio thing you're trying to claim is all crap. Absolute scumminess is what matters not some ratio. This is meant to be an exaggerated example but if the most protown player with lots of protown votes is tracked to the assumed scum kill on some day 6 or something, they're not given a pass because thats only 1 scummy thing amongst a sea of towniness. Or in the case of VV and me, either He's scummier, or I am. There's no, "well VV is scummier but rhinox only said 1 thing and it was kinda scummy so his scummy ratio is higher".

So, I think MO might be scum but I want to make sure I'm not biased because he thinks I'm scum. Part of me wonders why hypo-scum MO would attempt to derail the VV wagon unless they were scum together, but town MO could legitimately slow the lynch if he wasn't confident it was the best choice.

Shit VV scum PR MO scum goon that would explain EVERYTHING but I'd need my tin-foil hat to believe it. Maybe I'm just paranoid of another DGB/Plum debacle tho...

---------------------------

Who else is in this game, Vi, Socio, Almaster, Elli, GG, PZ.

Not hamering VV right away seems pro-town regardless of VV's allignment so thats town points for Vi.

Elli and PZ are prob town right now for meta reasons, they both seem kinda lurkerish with little content but with both of them I've seen them each 2 or 3 times just like this and every time they were town.

I don't recall if I've played with socio, almaster, or GG before and all 3 of them are under my radar right now so neutral on those 3.

---------------------------

So, tl;dr:

scum in {VV, MO, UK, Vezok, Jahudo}. I think VV gets lynched before MO and Vezok gets my bullet to answer spyrex's earlier question, so that means

VOTE: UncertainKitten <-scum

[AlmasterGM]

my above post is referring to m_o.

@Vi - see my entire argument with m_o, he's being scumtastic and is clearly the best wagon right now.

also where do I call rhinox town. I have no read on him because he ISN'T POSTING, which makes sense.

SNIPE EDIT: OMG now rhinox is here too, god now i have to read him and rethink eveerrything.

[AlmasterGM]

UK is scum now?

wut.

[magnus_orion]

...
UK's probably town, that frustration seemed legit.
Can someone tell me if Vezok normally tries to avoid taking positions like this?

preview edits:
@AGM: Read the full quote:

VV just has more thread noise

, which invariably leads to an increase in the amount you read someone as scum.

One person with a concentration of information about them invariably increases the amount you read them as scum.

m_o - You're actually very calm right now, in spite of being quadrupleflamed. Why?

Cause I'm used to it. A lot of my views on the site go against the acceptable ones. I usually get attacked a lot as town. I tend to avoid this sort of thing as scum though /wifom
and Oh shit Rhinox posted... I'll have to read that now.

[magnus_orion]

huh. While the obvious scum-move would be to hop onto either me or VV, rhinox does neither but leaves both those options open....
@rhinox: have you played with UK before?

[Rhinox]

huh. While the obvious scum-move would be to hop onto either me or VV, rhinox does neither but leaves both those options open....
@rhinox: have you played with UK before?

i don't think so, but I don't remember for sure. It hasn't been within the last year or so if we have. Why does it matter?

And just to be clear - I could possibly vote VV today, but I don't think I would vote you unless VV is scum first. I don't think scum-you does anything to derail the VV wagon unless VV is a scum PR.

[Vi]

@Vi - see my entire argument with m_o, he's being scumtastic and is clearly the best wagon right now.

also where do I call rhinox town. I have no read on him because he ISN'T POSTING, which makes sense.

First sentence - The comparison here is WITH VASUDEVA. I think it has been established that m_o looks sketchy, but why him over the person you were previously gung-ho for?

Second sentence - The context of that accusation was that magnus_orion was SCUM trying to deflect attention from VasudeVa SCUM toward Rhinox EVIDENTLYNOTSCUM. The last alignment assumption is filled in but I don't see how it would be any other way.

----

Rhinox: Why UK over Jahudo?

And a bit more succinctly for me (pretty please etc.) why VasudeVa over magnus_orion?

Cut: Why place m_o on your scumlist if voting him is conditional on VasudeVa's flip? For that matter, why not VasudeVote?

----

m_o: Might I suggest a different playstyle in the future?

I don't think making scum associations without flips is a good idea at all.

[AlmasterGM]

o rly magnus? you were ONLY talking about VV/Rhinox?

which invariably leads to an increase in the amount you read someone as scum.

if you were referring to a specific person, then why do you say "someone" instead of him?

more info = more things to call scummy.
is what I mean.

sounds like a pretty general concept to me. more posts = more stuff to attack doesn't JUST apply to VV/Rhinox.

Most people

commit things that could be interpreted as scumtells frequently. If I had been lurking instead of mentioning my preference for long day 1s, you'd have nothing to call me a buddy for. I'm town, doesn't mean I don't say things that can't be interpreted as scummy.

Bolded mine, MOST PEOPLE. Not just VV and Rhinox.

[magnus_orion]

@"Why does it matter?": Just wanted to verify and make note of meta connections or lack thereof based on your comments. Its something to keep in mind when comparing what you think about a specific statement compared to what I think.

m_o: Might I suggest a different playstyle in the future?

I don't think making scum associations without flips is a good idea at all.

o rly magnus? you were ONLY talking about VV/Rhinox?

which invariably leads to an increase in the amount you read someone as scum.

if you were referring to a specific person, then why do you say "someone" instead of him?

more info = more things to call scummy.
is what I mean.

sounds like a pretty general concept to me. more posts = more stuff to attack doesn't JUST apply to VV/Rhinox.

Most people

commit things that could be interpreted as scumtells frequently. If I had been lurking instead of mentioning my preference for long day 1s, you'd have nothing to call me a buddy for. I'm town, doesn't mean I don't say things that can't be interpreted as scummy.

Bolded mine, MOST PEOPLE. Not just VV and Rhinox.

I'm talking about most individuals generally. This isn't specific to VV or rhinox. This can apply to any individual. If the information concerning that individual is disproportionately greater to the amount of information concerning most people, the probability that individual will appear scummy to people goes up.
If you have a general increase in information such that it remains roughly evenly distributed in reference to all players, my belief is that can (almost) always be good. (There is such a thing as general information flooding, But I don't want to get into that discussion, nor does it seem a problem here)

[AlmasterGM]

@Vi -

First sentence - The comparison here is WITH VASUDEVA. I think it has been established that m_o looks sketchy, but why him over the person you were previously gung-ho for?

I don't know. I admit, I have not actually compared the cases side by side. I am just voting for magnus because he has been more scummy more recently. I SHOULD do a comparative analysis, but that will come later. Right now, I am more interested in seeing where this goes and giving myself more stuff to compare with.

Second sentence - The context of that accusation was that magnus_orion was SCUM trying to deflect attention from VasudeVa SCUM toward Rhinox EVIDENTLYNOTSCUM. The last alignment assumption is filled in but I don't see how it would be any other way.

Hm, I suppose it does sound that way. What my thought process was that I have such a massive scum read on VV that going from him to anybody else (other than magnus, obi) seems like a deflection - especially when that somebody else hasn't really even posted that much.

@m_o - ...Yes, that was my original point: that what you said was general. And then you said "no wait look at my bolded quote, I am specifically talking VV/Rhinox." And now you are back to saying it was general again. Ok.