Open 260 - Tit For Tat - Game Over

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

vote: smashbro

I can't help but feel that mallow is a bit of a soft target, and that smash's case on him is to deflect attention away from himself.
I could be wrong, but that's what it feels like to me.

I also don't really get why he is not voting for his suspect on the zhero wagon, namely don, when he seems so sure at least one person on it was scum.

dont have much time now, have to go to class, but I've had a scum read on mallow since the beginning, and only switched votes when only one or two people supported it. So I went with a different scum read, werewolf. I'm not voting don because I still believe mallow to be scum, and I have yet to come up with a formal case on don, though I do believe he is scummy.

Vote Count

smashbro_of_the_SSS (3) - lewarcher82, don_johnson, ThAdmiral
mallowgeno (1) - smashbro_of_the_SSS
Purple Orange (1) - implosion

Not Voting (4) - Purple Orange, Gonzoooo, mallowgeno, vollkan

With 9 alive it is 5 to lynch. The deadline is set for the end of December 8th, PST.

[ThAdmiral]

That may be true but mainly suspecting only one person for a large portion of the game is a good scum tactic as it allows you to lay lower and make less enemies.

[don_johnson]

its nice to see smash trying, but ultimately his posts are weak. he is still using the events of the rvs to condemn mallow. i don't think mallow's actions at that point in the game were terribly scummy. smash, on the other hand, has been calling players scummy but putting his votes elsewhere. now, when push comes to shove, he's contributing, but nothing of real substance. his vote on mallow could be scum picking on an easy target or scum picking on weaker scum. either way, i think we are back to:

more votes on smash. put him to L-1. get a claim. move on. it shall be done(come on voting block).

[lewarcher82]

Smash, you are voting a player who is waiting for replacement. Does it mean we will have to wait for mallow to be replaced before you do something more?

I am unable to understand implosion's case on purple. I would like an explanation with quotes from her posts.

Unlikely that don could be jumping on a town. If smash were lynched and flipped town (we have a ml, if vig isn't an idiot), then he will be in a very bad situation tomorrow.

Admiral #301 is correct.

@vollkan: I answered you. I wait for further comments, either in form of questions or in form of further scumtells you get from my later posts. By all means, complete rereading.

@everyone: too many replacements. Please stay.

[don_johnson]

oh and volkan: i'm not a big linker. 40 is my opinion based on my personal experience as both town and scum. i will provide nothing to back up that statement. +5 is fine. vote smash. thank you.

[vollkan]

post 85: it is my opinion that a scumnoob makes mistakes just like a townnoob, therefore it is no bad strategy to put votes on a scumnoob; moreover, consig is in his 4th game, I am in my 8th or 9th, he was not such a noob after all. I thought that consig was an unexperienced scum player and acted accordingly, until I decided that gonzooo looked scummier to me. Then other cases became more urgent, there was the crazy zhero claim and the werewolf lynch, and meanwhile purple has joined, and I started getting towntells from her. Therefore I may have been wrong about consig, and being wrong about consig means I should reconsider my case on gonzooo and possibly dismiss it, at least for the moment.

This doesn't really address my point. You say "scumnoob makes mistakes just like a townoob", but that's exactly what I meant: both are liable to slip up, so putting one under serious pressure hardly makes sense.

Am I misunderstanding you?

(Also, whether a player is a noob or not is not simply a question of how many games they have been in. Some players learn how to play much much faster than others)

post 93: having a suspicion and expecting a reaction by the bw-target are no mutually exclusive strategies. They are mutually exclusive iff the player is about to get lynched, L-3 is not the case.

Yes, but this ignores two points:
1) As I said, the wagon on Consig was not simply a pressure wagon;
2) Pressure on a newbie easily leads to them crumbling and being lynched from a L-3 base point

(why are you mentioning that other game? Do you want town to get paranoid about me?)

I don't want people to get paranoid, but I think it is important that people read you with an accurate understanding of your calibre of play. It was also directly on point to what I was saying, because part of my reason for suspecting you is that your play with respect to consig is at odds with what I'd expect from somebody of your ability.

Continuing read

111:

Smash+8

. The vote here is terribad. First, it begins with "looking back over" without any explanation as to what changed his mind. Second, he drums up Consig's play to being scum trying to avoid suspicion, and entirely ignores dealing with the prospect that Consig is simply a daft newbie.
132:

Lew+6

The three points against gonzo here are all crap. First, as Gonzo says in 137, really just seems to be spinning the fact that Gonzo knows how to separate VI from scum. Second, is really making a mountain of a molehill - some people very clearly were voting consig because of the Andrew thing; I can't see why the fact that gonzo didn't say "But lew is being a good boy and not doing so" makes him scum; the point is that the wagon was a steaming pile. Third is just ridiculous - there is absolutely no contradiction in thinking that people should be pushing harder but also suspecting people who push for terrible reasons.
167: Admiral makes a good find here about lew mudslinging

lew+3

201:

Mallow+6

Mallow's vote here is terrible. A L-3 claim is not scummily premature, let alone to justify a vote when this is the first time that Mallow has even mentioned werewolf. I don't think town would reasonably change tact so suddenly.
226:

Smash+10

. Contradiction. He smears the zhero wagon by saying he thinks it is scum-drive (either bussing or opportunistic). He then proceeds to agree with the reasoning and announces his intention to vote zhero "in a day or two". In short, the wagon is really scummy, but he's going to join it.
294: I arrive. Sky erupts with songbirds.

Player	Score
don_johnson	55
Purple Orange	50
Gonzoooo	50
lewarcher82	70
mallowgeno	56
ThAdmiral	50
smashbro_of_the_SSS	73
implosion	55

Accordingly,

Vote:Smash

[ThAdmiral]

more votes on smash. put him to L-1. get a claim.

move on

. it shall be done(come on voting block).

You mean no matter what he claims?

[Purple Orange]

Thank you. I now had a closer look at smash's switch (#198). Interesting timing. Question is: are the reasons he gives for his vote on werewolf convincing?

#198 for reference

Depending on how fast smashbro types his posts, it could have just been simultaneous posting and cooincidence, so I'm wary of reading too much into the timing.

I can buy switching from an inactive to an active scum suspect, in order to exert actual pressure, but I don't think it's the most persuasive argument ever. (He's gone back to pushing a mallow lynch, so at least he's consistent there). And I also heard wolf's overall language as "off", though I was having a hard time identifying why.

Smash jumps on the "economical" and "easier to lynch" comments, however, and misrepresents them, and completely misses where they fits in the context of wolf's larger argument. (As does implosion in #186 -- "easier to lynch" is not the "only reason" he switched his vote over. My #180 isn't faultless in this regard, either -- I missed the fact he wasn't necessarily flat out sheeping, but could also be logically drawing on an earlier connection he'd asserted between Gonzoooo and Consig).

I am unable to understand implosion's case on purple. I would like an explanation with quotes from her posts.

I believe Implosion is saying that I vocally pushed the wolf wagon, but a) didn't back my push with a vote, thereby avoiding out of official wagon analysis, and b) made a post (#214) that looked an attempt to distance myself from a wolf lynch.

[implosion]

@implosion: I do not think what you write about purple's behaviour against werewolf makes much sense. But again, such a behaviour would be typical for a scum-newbie. However, I highly doubt that purple is really a new-player.

@implosion(2): you mean a vig could act as a uncc'd and therefore cleared townie? I disagree, this would imply that he has to claim, and besides, since no smart vig would ever claim, we could not trust a claimed vig, cuz he could be scum pretending to be him.

1: Purple joined in November and has Townsperson status, so I'm kind of assuming she's at least new to this site. She does seem to have mafia experience in general.
2: What I meant is that in the event that the vigilante never had a chance to shoot again (for example, if the game went to 3-way LYLO with the vig, a VT, and a mafioso) they would still be better to have than a VT because they have a different name and could become clear by claiming at lylo.

I am unable to understand implosion's case on purple. I would like an explanation with quotes from her posts.

Purple's post 214 (or the second half of it):

And another note:
People are jumping on wolf over this switch of vote and "easier to lynch" thing, but I actually think he actually explained himself coherently. (Whether there's scumslips in the language he actually chose, and whether his explanation is a plausible one, are different matters. But it's at least coherent).

Wolf said in his 3rd post, where he voted for Gonzoooo, that he believed Gonzoooo and Consig were scumbuddies. Consig later started to get more votes than Gonzoooo, and kept engaging in behavior that was making him more suspect than Gonzoooo. He looked like the easier of the two to get lynched first. So wolf moved his vote over to Consig, to aid the process, and to try to make sure at least one of his suspects got lynched. (This is what the "economical" use of the vote referred to).

In terms of the outline of his reasoning, I don't see it as being very different from me saying in my post that I suspect both wolf and mallow of being scum, and am willing to vote for either of them. As I think wolf's first post was a garbage reason pulled out of thin air, though, the fact that he's consistently stuck to his case doesn't make me suspect him any less.

First paragraph: Purple essentially condemns the wolf wagon, saying that the majority of reasoning on it is flawed. Second paragraph: she explains how some of wolf's actions make sense. Third paragraph: she says she is still suspicious of wolf and is still willing to vote for him.

The first and third paragraphs here aren't quite a contradiction, but it seems to me like Purple wanted to support the wolf wagon while at the same time condemning it - I.E., support a lynch on werewolf while condemning those on the lynch wagon. Purple in 273 admits to having done this, so it's just a question of if it's scummy, and I still think it is. It isn't

exactly

a contradiction, but it looks like scum trying to milk as much as possible out of the wolf wagon.

More in a sec.

[implosion]

The mallow issue

mallow looks more like a VI than scum, and yes, he looks like a very easy target. From what I remember reading about VIs (at least I think I read something) he looks more town than scum actually, because he was at least making legitimate attempts to scumhunt (ISO 9, 17, 20, 21). So that slot is probably town.

The Smash wagon

The argument about him voting/tunneling mallow definitely holds weight. As I just said, mallow is an easy target and his slot is likely town. Smash's all-game long tunneling is definitely suspicious, particularly since mallow posted so little.

As for what Smash says about the Zhero wagon - out of the nine living players, 4 were on that wagon. So yes, odds are at least one scum was on that wagon. I doubt that there are more than one scum on it, because I doubt a second scum would make a move onto the wagon after seeing a first do it, as it would likely draw a link between them.

don_johnson

d_j is getting lazy. Of his last four votes (ISOs 16, 18, 20, 24), he explains zero of them (although ISO 20 has an obvious reason). I don't know if this is scum lazy, but I think it might be. don, is there any reason that you haven't done anything substantive since... well really ISO 7 and a few posts around then. All you've done today is talk about a voting block and well post 302, which ThAd already asked the necessary question about. There hasn't really been any real scumhunting from you recently.

These two (Smash, d_j) as well as Purple Orange are my current top suspects.

I also need to reevaluate Gonzooo/lew at some point, and vollkan when he's posted more.

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

v/la for a day

need to finish NaNoWriMo, will reply to all of you once I've written 5,000 more words.

[don_johnson]

Move on=proceed. Move forward etc. Obviously, how one ""proceeds" depends in the circumstances at hand. Questioning what I said there is lazy. Speaking of...

I have found scum. Don't feel the need to do much more at this time.

[lewarcher82]

post 85: it is my opinion that a scumnoob makes mistakes just like a townnoob, therefore it is no bad strategy to put votes on a scumnoob; moreover, consig is in his 4th game, I am in my 8th or 9th, he was not such a noob after all. I thought that consig was an unexperienced scum player and acted accordingly, until I decided that gonzooo looked scummier to me. Then other cases became more urgent, there was the crazy zhero claim and the werewolf lynch, and meanwhile purple has joined, and I started getting towntells from her. Therefore I may have been wrong about consig, and being wrong about consig means I should reconsider my case on gonzooo and possibly dismiss it, at least for the moment.

This doesn't really address my point. You say "scumnoob makes mistakes just like a townoob", but that's exactly what I meant: both are liable to slip up, so putting one under serious pressure hardly makes sense.

Am I misunderstanding you?

In part. You seem to be unable (unwilling?) to start from the assumption that I was convinced that consig was scum. I attacked him because I thought he was scum and because I thought he was likely to slip and make it evident.

post 93: having a suspicion and expecting a reaction by the bw-target are no mutually exclusive strategies. They are mutually exclusive iff the player is about to get lynched, L-3 is not the case.

Yes, but this ignores two points:
1) As I said, the wagon on Consig was not simply a pressure wagon;
2) Pressure on a newbie easily leads to them crumbling and being lynched from a L-3 base point

My vote on consig was both a pressure and a fosing vote. The BW never got so far to make me worry about what it meant to other players on it. You keep starting from the assumption that I was voting a town. It may have been the case, but I was convinced that my target was scum.

Player	Score
don_johnson	55
Purple Orange	50
Gonzoooo	50
lewarcher82	70
mallowgeno	56
ThAdmiral	50
smashbro_of_the_SSS	73
implosion	55

Accordingly,

Vote:Smash

Weird. Most of your comments are dedicated to me being scummy, but then I am only the second scummiest in the table, and you vote with the block...

mallow looks more like a VI than scum, and yes, he looks like a very easy target. From what I remember reading about VIs (at least I think I read something) he looks more town than scum actually, because he was at least making legitimate attempts to scumhunt (ISO 9, 17, 20, 21). So that slot is probably town.

This is consistent with my impression as well.

I also need to reevaluate Gonzooo/lew at some point, and vollkan when he's posted more.

please do. I am also trying to evaluate you. The mutual results may be interesting. As for your case on purple, I tended to explain her behaviour as a consequence of the fact that she had just joined the game. As I said, she looks quite pro-town to me.

[lewarcher82]

more votes on smash. put him to L-1. get a claim.

move on

. it shall be done(come on voting block).

You mean no matter what he claims?

someone defined my arguments against gonzooo "semantics"...

[ThAdmiral]

Move on=proceed. Move forward etc. Obviously, how one ""proceeds" depends in the circumstances at hand. Questioning what I said there is lazy.

Why lazy? It was a weird thing to say imo.

I have found scum. Don't feel the need to do much more at this time.

Okay. Interested to see where this goes.

more votes on smash. put him to L-1. get a claim.

move on

. it shall be done(come on voting block).

You mean no matter what he claims?

someone defined my arguments against gonzooo "semantics"...

Well the choice of phrase is interesting. To me it implies move on

from that person to someone else

. It seemed he was dismissing him for the lynch when and if he claimed.
"Proceed from there" would have made more sense if that's what he meant.

[lewarcher82]

Ok Thad, I understand now.

[Gonzoooo]

Many apologies. Holidays + work snowed me under for too long. I'm really glad to see volkan here and providing a lot of content. I need to do some reading today and will try my best to get something up.

[don_johnson]

imo, what i said is not weird. imo, i find it weird that it is an issue for you. do you propose that we get a claim from smash and "not move on"? exactly how would that work? we all agree to stop playing the game and head over to the queue to sign up for others? you've lost me. the opposite of "move on" is to "not move on". if we don't "move on" the game goes nowhere. much like it is now. please vote smash, or present a case against someone else. or just sit there. and we can "not move on".

[lewarcher82]

thrilling post, thanks don. This gets the game going!

well, I and vollkan are doing our best to entertain u guys... someone else should participate, tho

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

its nice to see smash trying, but ultimately his posts are weak. he is still using the events of the rvs to condemn mallow. i don't think mallow's actions at that point in the game were terribly scummy. smash, on the other hand, has been calling players scummy but putting his votes elsewhere. now, when push comes to shove, he's contributing, but nothing of real substance. his vote on mallow could be scum picking on an easy target or scum picking on weaker scum. either way, i think we are back to:

more votes on smash. put him to L-1. get a claim. move on. it shall be done(come on voting block).

mallow has done little to nothing to help this game, and hasn't repalced out until just now. A few other things wrong with this post.

"smash has been calling other players scummy, but putting his votes elsewhere"

finally,

unvote, vote: Mallowgeno

because as I said, you are scummy. I'd happily switch back between either of the two (Consig and mallow) but I would like to see a bit from Consig's replacement too.

I like the case on werewolf, and I' definitely seeing him as scum right now. His wording in his posts have seemed a bit off, from voting for Consig to be "economical" and more recently saying (in ISO post #10)

"That is what I believed, and that since consig had more votes, it would be easier to get him lynched because of his previous behavior."

easier to get him lynched?

vote: werewolf

also Werewolf... why claim? you're still three votes away from a lynch.

--------------------------------------------

as for any other cases, I still believe Mallow to be scum, but since he hasn't been around still (where's that catch up post?) I don't mind moving my vote to werewolf.

I've voted for Consig, werewolf, and mallow. I've always been saying Mallow was scummy, and presented my case for him. when no one agreed, i moved my vote to other scum reads, which i thought would be more productive, while still trying to show why I think mallow is scummy. the above bolded quote is wrong.

"his vote on mallow could be scum picking on an easy target or scum picking on weaker scum"

how can i be scum picking on an easy target when no one else is voting for mallow? picking an easy target would mean going after someone who could be easily lynched, and given that there is little to no support for mallow, I don't agree with this sentence.

Smash, you are voting a player who is waiting for replacement. Does it mean we will have to wait for mallow to be replaced before you do something more?

just because i'm voting a slot which needs a replacement doesn't mean i won't do anything (that being said, sorry for the v/la, needed to write). I still think the slot is scummy, so my vote stays.

Continuing read

111:

Smash+8

. The vote here is terribad. First, it begins with "looking back over" without any explanation as to what changed his mind. Second, he drums up Consig's play to being scum trying to avoid suspicion, and entirely ignores dealing with the prospect that Consig is simply a daft newbie.
226:

Smash+10

. Contradiction. He smears the zhero wagon by saying he thinks it is scum-drive (either bussing or opportunistic). He then proceeds to agree with the reasoning and announces his intention to vote zhero "in a day or two". In short, the wagon is really scummy, but he's going to join it.

Player	Score
don_johnson	55
Purple Orange	50
Gonzoooo	50
lewarcher82	70
mallowgeno	56
ThAdmiral	50
smashbro_of_the_SSS	73
implosion	55

Accordingly,

Vote:Smash

First off, welcome to the game. I can see that you have learned how to pull numbers out of the air and use them to come up with bigger numbers. Bravo.

as for your points. in post #111, I said I thought Consig was town, yes. Just because i didn't type that I considered the idea that he might be newb town doesn't mean i didn't consider it. I just thought that Consig was scum, rather than town. how is this a crime? as for the lack of any reason, i thought that saying that i had reread covered it. I look at the thread, Consig's actions, and the other cases against him. and i agreed.

for the Zhero wagon, I still stand by that the wagon came on too fast, and to me it seemed like there was a scum bussing or scum jumping on a new, popular wagon to look good. Just because the wagon happened too fast for my taste though, did not mean that i disagreed with it. I thought Zhero was scummy, and so i agreed with the wagon then. Call it contradiction, but i can both think that a wagon was scummy for being much too quick, and still agreeing with the case against Zhero.

The Smash wagon

The argument about him voting/tunneling mallow definitely holds weight. As I just said, mallow is an easy target and his slot is likely town. Smash's all-game long tunneling is definitely suspicious, particularly since mallow posted so little.

As for what Smash says about the Zhero wagon - out of the nine living players, 4 were on that wagon. So yes, odds are at least one scum was on that wagon. I doubt that there are more than one scum on it, because I doubt a second scum would make a move onto the wagon after seeing a first do it, as it would likely draw a link between them.

Tunnelling? When I agreed with, and talked about cases on other players, including Zhero, werewolf, Consig, and explaining to the Admiral why I don't agree with his idea that Lew was scum. What you're calling tunneling is how i still hold a scum read on mallow, when it has

only been one day, and one lynch

. I haven't been tunneling, and just because my top read for scum wasn't who was lynched on day 1, doesn't mean I'm tunneling.












more to come later on, going to take a break from the computer for the moment. If I missed any of the case against me, please tell me. Also, look forward to my opinion on Don, and probably one or two other people i find scummy.

[Gonzoooo]

Ok, going back to recover some ground from yesterday.

I really don't like sappo's vote on Zhero yesterday, but I really can't tell if she's being genuine with her "I didn't know this game had mechanics" schtick. I mean, really? You forgot you were playing an open game or you forgot the specific mechanics of this game?

I also don't like implosion all that much. There is just something about him that seems so much in the background and I can't put my finger on it exactly. I had niggling worries about him yesterday, but then he said something townish that I don't recall and I decided I was just overreacting. Then he had his non comment at the end of the day and it kind of just read like a post for postings sake when the lynch was going to go through anyhow. Idk. I just needed to say something about it. Maybe later I can actually find out if its worth following or not.

I don't care for lew calling out chesskid at the start of the day. That seems pretty dumb and possibly an easy attack on low hanging fruit. I don't see the point of it (which implosion says! There he goes acting town again).

Also: I would like to assume that we all know no1 must claim. I tend to assume mafia-players are rational human beings (even though the behaviour of the role cop on day 1 kinda shakes my assumption). What I was writing about chess simply depends on the fact that I have seen scum players who pretended to have been V/LA all night... anyway, I was only half serious, so let us stop discussing this.

Why should we stop talking about you baiting chess around his role? He already claimed, so the damage is done. It might be worthwhile for you to explain in more detail why you did it. Was it on MS that you saw a scum pretend to have not been around during the night phase?

I want rather everyone to tell me what they think of Thad, since he is the only new-entry who actually posted some real content so far.

I'm wary of our sea faring friend actually. His posts read townish enough, but he's also experienced enough to fake it when it counts. I'm not inclined to push for his lynch atm, but I also won't be blindly following him.

I'm also suspicious of Purple Orange for a very passive response to the werewolf wagon. I'm not entirely sure if it's passive support or passive dislike, but I think it's the former. In post 214, Purple both dismisses what he sees as reasoning for most of the werewolf wagon, and says that he still thinks werewolf is scum. It looks to me like he didn't want to be on the wagon, yet he wanted to make it look like he thought werewolf was scum. Or, he wanted no connection or even a strong disconnection to the wagon, but still had to uphold his previous position that werewolf was scum.

This is a note for myself to look back at this when I have some time.
-edit-
I like PurpleOrange's reply actually.

I fail to see mallow's scumminess.

So you don't see anything scummy about mallow this game?

Don Jon is the person that, aside from sapo, I believe had the most questionable activity when it came to the Zhero wagon. But a) this is largely influenced by the fact that I suspect mallow to be scum. And b) because of Zhero's scummy vote, any vote on Zhero CAN be seen as completely justified.

I actually dig this alot. Keeping my eye on a dj-mallow connection.

i suggest a voting block of dj, thad, lew, and gonzo.

Count me out for now. I don't have strong enough town reads at the moment to be pro voting bloc.

This smashbro wagon isn't really tickling my fancy.

That may be true but mainly suspecting only one person for a large portion of the game is a good scum tactic as it allows you to lay lower and make less enemies.

This seems like you're ignoring everything smash said just so you can call him scummy. I don't get why you think he should vote don over mallow if he finds mallow more suspicious. Explain for me cause I'm slow and such.

smash, on the other hand, has been calling players scummy but putting his votes elsewhere.

And this immediate follow up from dj is poo too. In the same post you say he's tunneling on mallow, then you say he's not voting who he finds scummy. I don't get it. Then you pepper it with "he's not posting goodz". Meh, sounds like a lot of hot air to me. I'm not saying I have anything close to a town read on smash, but this is really the best you can find to wagon him over?

And don't get me started on this:

more votes on smash. put him to L-1. get a claim. move on. it shall be done(come on voting block).

First paragraph: Purple essentially condemns the wolf wagon, saying that the majority of reasoning on it is flawed.

Disagree. She is saying she understands what he said, not that the "majority of reasoning" on the wagon is flawed.

Vote: saporovirus

for now. I need to do some more thinking.

implosion, I would like you to reply to Purple Orange's response to your case and then tell me if you still find her scummy.

Personally, PurpleOrange is like the only person I fully trust at the moment. Yo yo, PO, who do you want to lynch today?

[smashbro_of_the_SSS]

Vote: saporovirus

for now. I need to do some more thinking.

Gonzoooo, I regret to inform you that the person you are voting for is already dead.




also, my attention really isn't here anymore. I'll have to do a reread, but from what I've read just now about Don, he seemed to be fairly helpful at the beginning of the game, but recently began to just throw his vote anywhere. as for other reads, i really don't know yet. will come back to this tomorrow when my head is clearer

[Gonzoooo]

Oh...that is true. This is why you don't go away from games for long periods of time. ffff

Vote: don johnson

[Purple Orange]

Err...yeah, what they said. sapo's dead. The vig killed them. For roughly the same reasons you voted for him, probably.

I had planned to go after mallow, and if he flipped scum, go after D_J. Still trying to figure out if there's anything to this Smash case, though.

And don't be silly. You should never fully trust anyone.

[vollkan]

In part. You seem to be unable (unwilling?) to start from the assumption that I was convinced that consig was scum. I attacked him because I thought he was scum and because I thought he was likely to slip and make it evident.

This was your voting post for Consig:

I completely disagree. In fact, Consigliere only posted noise and did little more than apologise in all his posts. He states he is new, he states he does not know how to handle nvs, and so on... the mistake discussed here is just a little mistake, not at all scummy, but it does not show he is town, and the rest of his activity is disturbing me.

In fact, I will put him at L-3 by unvoting; vote: Consigliere.

I can't see how any of the matters you listed could justify you being 'convinced' he was scum. Every single one of those is equally consistent with him being a VI. It begs belief to think that you of all people wouldn't be able to realise that such a player is a bad place to apply 'pressure'

My vote on consig was both a pressure and a fosing vote. The BW never got so far to make me worry about what it meant to other players on it. You keep starting from the assumption that I was voting a town. It may have been the case, but I was convinced that my target was scum.

Quote me please where I have assumed consig is town.

What I have opposed is the ridiculous notion that Consig was so obviously scum that it was appropriate to try and trap him using a method that was liable to make him vulnerable due to his newbness - because he wasn't obvious scum (if he was, why the need for pressure?)

Weird. Most of your comments are dedicated to me being scummy, but then I am only the second scummiest in the table, and you vote with the block...

What's weird about it? Especially since I use a numerical system, it should be damn obvious why smash's score is higher.

First off, welcome to the game. I can see that you have learned how to pull numbers out of the air and use them to come up with bigger numbers. Bravo.

You're not the first to take this attitude.

Think about it this way: Most players don't even rank their suspects, and those that do will just have a list of Town: X, Y Z; Scum: A, B, C. It doesn't tell you anything about how much they relatively suspect people, or why.

Everybody gives relative rankings to scumtells - I just try and make it more explicit with numbers.

as for your points. in post #111, I said I thought Consig was town, yes. Just because i didn't type that I considered the idea that he might be newb town doesn't mean i didn't consider it. I just thought that Consig was scum, rather than town. how is this a crime? as for the lack of any reason, i thought that saying that i had reread covered it. I look at the thread, Consig's actions, and the other cases against him. and i agreed.

So up until that point, you had no problem with consig's play - but then, for reason, something struck you as scummy?

for the Zhero wagon, I still stand by that the wagon came on too fast, and to me it seemed like there was a scum bussing or scum jumping on a new, popular wagon to look good. Just because the wagon happened too fast for my taste though, did not mean that i disagreed with it. I thought Zhero was scummy, and so i agreed with the wagon then. Call it contradiction, but i can both think that a wagon was scummy for being much too quick, and still agreeing with the case against Zhero.

This doens't make sense. You accuse it of being too fast, but you yourself stated that you were going to join it.