Fringe Mafia (Game Over, role PMs posted)

[Empking]

Dude it's obvious i have been on you for refusing to share your READS on people

Stop the straw man

Pssst, Hop. DB told you to pretend you were talking about cases. I think you forgot there.

[PogoStick]

Psst, let's go to the tape Alex

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p2639086

I call you on you refusing to make cases, that has been the basis of this entire debate. My #7 is clear even when poorly written

You won't give your reads
You find 4 people scum

You are really grasping at straws

Again, I called you out for keeping your reads to yourself, it's not pro town behavior

Making up shit like you are only makes you look scummier

[Doombunny9]

5. Doombunny, you've posted a lot of what looks like defense against Empking's mention of suspicion. Why does it feel to me like you're overreacting?

I dunno. I'm not a mind reader. You tell me.

To make certain that I was clear and that both TM and Hop are lying (rather than being mistaken) when they say that I haven't given them.

It always make me laugh when yuou call other people out for lying by changing their words. We all know who you think is scum. We don't know why.

Smarge: 1. DB had Hop as his to suspect but came up with a BS reason not to vote. (post 29)
2. He's now done a complete u-turn on Hop. Defending him at every opportunity.
3. Hop's and DB's coordinated strikes to annoy me.
4. DB always generally agreeing with Hop but when asked about specifics always disagreeing with him.
5. Hop's ignoring a point I made against him in order to leave it to DB to defend him about it.
6. DB defending him on that point.
7. Hop changing his mind on that point quickly as soon as DB was on in order to tell him to pull a u-turn.
8. Until recently, DB and Hop coordinated to keep their votes off the same player today.

When smar wanted a case on someone other than HOMJ, I'm pretty sure that didn't mean copy/paste your HOMJ case. You're not even making an effort anymore.

[Empking]

To make certain that I was clear and that both TM and Hop are lying (rather than being mistaken) when they say that I haven't given them.

It always make me laugh when yuou call other people out for lying by changing their words. We all know who you think is scum. We don't know why.

I thought you weren't a mindreader?

TM and Hop have said several times that I didn't say who my four scum reads were on.

[PogoStick]

Look I'm gonna say this one more time and than the gloves are coming off

I am not talking about who your 4 scum are, I have been talking about your reasons why they are scum

I have clarified this multiple times yet you keep harping on the names

I know who your 4 people are but not what they have said or done to make you suspect them.

This is the worst I have seen you play man

[Doombunny9]

TM and Hop have said several times that I didn't say who my four scum reads were on.

I'm getting tired of having to say this. We all know what they meant. stop trying to get into arguements about semantics.

Oh yeah... Feel like answering my question I asked in post 574?

[PogoStick]

you know when I checked in a few minutes ago and saw zang's name at the bottom of the screen I was hopeful we were finally getting his posts he promised, I see that was a lie and I can only think that he doesn't have much to say since is scum buddy emp is flailing all over the place.

I officially move Zang up to scum buddy number 2 with BV as scum number 3, assuming that is that we have 3.

this game is quickly about to be abandoned imo.

just cause we have a 3 week deadline people doesn't mean we have to use the entire 3 weeks. There is MORE than enough information to make a decision on who to lynch.

[Zang]

Wall of text covering 11 pages-

Zang: What's the difference between something that is "scummy" and something that is a "scum tell".

To me, scummy Is an action that benefits scum whether performed by scum or town while a scum tell is a scummy action performed by scum.

 For example, you would say-

"that is scummy but he acts like this in all of his games so he is town."

But you wouldn't say-

"that is a scum tell but he acts like this in all of his games so he is town.

So if you seen pro town use them whu immediately come after those guys that do it and act like they ate scum for doing it?

Can you read you're posts before you post them?

And like I said, they are performed mostly by scum.

if I came in and saw someone insulted another player, no matter who it was I would vote them immediately

Why? Someone insulting you is not scummy.
 
And calling someone a bad mafia player  isn't an insult. I have been called a bad mafia player before and I've called people a bad mafia player. It's not an insult, it's a fact based on a persons average play as town. And empking (obviously) didn't call him a bad mafia player to insult him or because he believed it, he did it to prove a point.

Zang: If somebody sarcasticly says "town please follow emp because he is scum hunting yo" is it fair to presume that something prompted that and its not just a random comment.

Yes, I don't see how it wouldn't be prompted by anything if it is not random.

no I am not buddying
and what I mean was it seemed like you just insulted a player (atleast that is how I took that comment) and it isn't a pro-town thing to say. Even if you didn't mean it as an isult, that whole statment wasn't very pro-town

How is an insult anti town?

I already said if you are pro-town there is no reason to insult someone, so if I logged into a game and saw someone had been insulted, I would vote the person doing the insulting.

insults are not pro town

But most town aren't pro-town. Even if they intend to be pro-town, most are neutral or antitown. And there is a diffeence between not pro-town, anti-town and scummy, only scummy is vote worthy.

so instead of asking me of insignificant things, start scum hunting cause you have yet to do it this game.

You can not say that someone is not scum hunting because they are scum hunting you.

2. The reason you gave for your vote was "same as yesterday" which isn't a good enough reason in my opinion

Why not? Nothing changed between the days except the lynch and kills which if anything should incriminate you more.

you are hoping town is stupid enough to just blindly follow you to another mislynch but in reality if town mislynches today we are in deep shit.

So you and everybody else on the Furcolow wagon blindly followed empking to a mislynch? Just because he was the first person to vote for him? If anybody the town followed you to the Furcolow mislynch.

I don't see any reasons in your votes.

As I've said before, reasons aren't just given in votes, they are shown in questions and comments.

3. I VOTED FOR SOMEBODY, so clearly I did not keep my options open. I also later went and attacked Lord and Nocman because I felt they were scum, in my mind those 3 were the scum team so I did not keep my options open, I narrowed down to 3

But later you could unvote them and vote for someone else saying that you have thought that they are scummy. That's still keeping your options open.

well you may as well go start looking at those 3 because I can GUARANTEE you I am not scum so why mislynch when you can go get the real deal.

Stop saying that. No matter how many times you GUARANTEE that you're town. It still means nothing.

1. my comment about scum talking looks fake - however it is well known that scum talking during the day on this site is very rare

It is not very rare, I've been in a few games with scum talking during the day. Talking at night is just more common.

Have you ever played epic mafia? Missing means dead but janitored

No, I haven't. But we're not playing epic mafia, we have no way of knowing what missing means.

Zang, and possibly Furc need rope.

Why? (and Furcolow is dead)

zang votes never makes a valid case

How have I not provided a valid case?

1. Appeal to numbers? - viewtopic.php?p=2625413#p2625413 - so you throw that buzzword to make yourself feel smart. way to go and when statistics prove that voting NL is pretty anti-town, there is nothing wrong with it.

I have already explained why NL is not anti-town. I've also already given you my thoughts on statistics in general, all statistics are WIFOM.

this is called active lurking and is what scum do.

No, it's not. Active lurking is posting frequently but not providing any content.

ok let me ask you this, If I happen to get to L-1 are you even going to believe me when I claim?

Why are you asking this? The town has no idea what you will claim so it is impossible for us to predict how we will react.

if I have than I really fucked up somewhere because I am very much pro-town

This is a contradiction. Two posts before this you said the emp is hunting VIs but know you say that you're pro-town. A VI can not be pro-town, if they are then they aren't a VI.

3. Neither bv nor myself have turned a sudden u-turn on one another despite considering them the scummiest player previously.

It's hard to make a sudden U-turn on reads when you've only made a few posts.

 and there is no reason to imply that if not trying to imply you are town

Everybody both town and scum tries to imply that they are town.

Your rebuttal in the above post is strictly your opinion, sadly opinions in this game don't hold much weight

I disagree, mafia is based completely on opinions. For example, It is my opinion that you are scum. 

also calling someone a VI I have learned on site is more of a scum tactic than a town tactic

So you think it's scummy that emp called you a VI but you previously called yourself a V1.

btw if anyone wants me to bullet my reasons why he is scum, please ask and I will gladly do so, I won't hide my information because OMG scum may read it also.

Please do this.

and I hope people notice that your activity went WAY UP once pressure built on you, before that you were just lurking and posting sporadically, now everytime someone posts something about you, you are right online to respond.

I don't find this scummy. I used to behave the same way.

3. denies bandwagon hopping and even claims to be on the wagon early, however emp was vote number 4 out of 7 for furc, the 4th vote officially makes a bandwagion

Weren't you previously arguing about how he was the 1st person on the wagon?

8. results to false accusations (straw man) and insults (VI calling)

I think I've explained this but calling someone a VI isn't an insult. 

13. he says BV doesn't look like he is trying for the mislynch by voting me, but how can he know it would be a mislynch if he knew I was town.

But he doesn't know you're town. If BV wasnt trying to make a mislynch by voting for you, that would make you scum.

14. he declares BV is town but later backtracks and changes it to 80% he is town

1.He said 90%.
2. He never changed anything, he said that he was 90% sure that he is town, nobody can ever be 100% sure that someone is town unless they are somehow confirmed.

15. directs most of his posts towards TM, in an obvious attempt to get TM on his side

How is this scummy? Isn't the whole point of a case to persuade someone to vote for the person you think is scummy?

very interesting note, Emp's last log on is registered as Novermber 26th yet he has posted all day, the only time I have logged on anonymous is when I was scum.

How do you know he's anonymous for this game? maybe he's scum in another game.

And I have logged on as anonymous before as town for many reasons.

i'm not going to discuss this any more. Reading through DB's posts I'm pretty sure I was wrong about GW and TM.

So you no longer have scum reads on them?

Well atleast you have realized you are caught

More votes on emp please

He never admitted to being caught.

He just changed his reads, which town are able to do.

4. Zang, weren't we supposed to get a wall from you today?

Sorry I'm late.

smargaret, I am not "trying" to look anything. I am playing the way I play. lack of activity is what makes these games boring and these days drag on forever when they don't have to. Emp is clearly scum yet nobody is around to do anything about it

We have plenty of activity from you and empking but this game is still boring. It doesn't matter how much activity of a game, what matters is the progress that activity brings. And that can also be applied to you.

You won't give your reads 
You find 4 people scum

He already gave his reads, he just won't give the reasoning behind 3 of them.

The reason why he hasn't given his cases is probably because you keep calling them reads.

[Zang]

you know when I checked in a few minutes ago and saw zang's name at the bottom of the screen I was hopeful we were finally getting his posts he promised, I see that was a lie and I can only think that he doesn't have much to say since is scum buddy emp is flailing all over the place.

Is that post good enough for you?

[PogoStick]

no because you didn't vote emp, he is clearly scum but I get you are protecting him so wasn't expecting it tbh

[PogoStick]

oh and yes calling somebody a VI is technically an insult because I means idiot, and calling a person an idiot.

if I call myself a VI, that is one thing but nobody has the right to just blanket call someone a VI, I don't care if it is the norm on this site, it's fucking retarded and INSULTING.

[Zang]

To you it may be insulting. But to me it's a rational name based on your play and how you help the town if at all.

By calling yourself a VI, I get the feeling that you believe the second definition whether you do or don't.

[PogoStick]

we can discuss VIs in another thread, let's not clog up the game.

also I would ask in the future can you refrain from these epically long posts with multiple quotes, it is really hard to read, especially when people are checking in on their phones, but I am on my desktop right now and I am having trouble deciphering who the hell you are talking to half the time.

[Zang]

When I say the name of a person in a quote, all the unnamed quotes until the next name are from that person.

And I wrote that on my phone, they can read it on their phone.

[PogoStick]

1. no town is often accused of using AtE by scum, this is the consensus I have seen in games I have read and in other discussions on site
2. insulting a player is scummy
3. insult is anti-town becauseit is scummy play, there is no need to insult people
4. "But most town aren't pro-town. Even if they intend to be pro-town, most are neutral or antitown. And there is a diffeence between not pro-town, anti-town and scummy, only scummy is vote worthy."

This makes no sense to me

5. "
You can not say that someone is not scum hunting because they are scum hunting you."

But I have proven he wasn't scum hunting me, he if anything was just spaghetti throwing

6. regaridng your question about emp saying "same as yesterday"

I said it isn't good enough because he never gave a valid reason for his votes on me day 1 so it made no sense for him to use that. plus he implied his voting first was somehow scum hunting which is also fail logic

7. you never provided a valid case, that is how I can say you never posted a valid case. Hiding your reasons in walls of text where nobody can see them hurts town, not helps them. the way you post these walls of text actually hurt town because it makes it impossible to respond to them easily. I am having a bitch of a time right now, you are purposely complicating things in hopes people will just not respond to you.
8. "I have already explained why NL is not anti-town. I've also already given you my thoughts on statistics in general, all statistics are WIFOM."

you can give your reasons all you want but saying statistics are WIFOM is actually crap, statistics that can prove something is FACT. Also No lynch is NEVER pro-town because it makes the vote count invalid for comparison later plus it just gives mafia a free kill, the fact that you think NL is acceptable, is anti-town thinking. just to clarify NO LYNCH IS NEVER PRO-TOWN

9. you really don't understand the term active lurking - from wiki "A subset of lurking is the so-called "active lurking", where a player posts in the thread but without making any contribution to the progress of the game. Their posts may be minimal in length, off-topic, or merely parroting what other players have already said" and quite a few people are doing that, I am making my case and emp keeps providing me with more evidence. I can say someone like DB could be accused of active lurking cause he fits into the "parroting"
10. I asked emp specifically if I was L-1, because he seemed so convinced I was scum I fear that even if I claimed he would not believe me, which is anti-town behavior to not be open to the idea of changing his mind, which I don't feel like he would and I still don't feel like he would change his mind about me.
11. emp's directed almost all of his posts at that time towards one person, it is scummy because it seems like he is trying to get that one person on his side, he shoudl be directing it to everyone not just TM
12. I don't understand how a VI can be anti-town when V stands for village, if a person is anti-town than call hm an SI. VI implies that he is town, SI implies he is scum
13. you just proved my point about opinions, everyone has their own but nobody can trust the opinion of anyone else, which is why opinions aren't valid in this game.
14. I don't believe I was arguing that he was first, he was the one saying he was early on. Even if originally he was first, the fact that he came of and went back invalidates his previous positions. his final vote on the wagon is the only one that counts and he was in an opportunistic location on that wagon. plus he was vote hopping back and forth, he just wanted to lynch which ever VI he could, he had no interest in helping town catch scum.
15. I already posted my bullet point case on emp
16. ".He said 90%., He never changed anything, he said that he was 90% sure that he is town, nobody can ever be 100% sure that someone is town unless they are somehow confirmed."

No originally he made a declarative statement that BV was town, he later retracted it to 90% (yeah I said 8 instead of 90%, who really cares about that. The fact that he declared BV as town (without a percentage) is suspicious cause there is only one way he can know that.
17. "He never admitted to being caught."

Well he shoudl is what i am saying

He just changed his reads, which town are able to do.

seems like he is "keeping his options open" and since he accused me of being scum for doing it, that means he shoudl be accused of scum for doing it

18. "He already gave his reads, he just won't give the reasoning behind 3 of them.

The reason why he hasn't given his cases is probably because you keep calling them reads."

Semantics cause it's fucking obvious I want him to post cases, you just proved it. and why are you defending emp? just proves you are his scum buddy to me

[PogoStick]

this is the best I can do to post responses to your crappy wall of text, if you do this again I am just going to ignore it because there is no easy way to dig through them to respond properly

[PogoStick]

and zang this game is boring because everyone including yourself go inactive

than we get people replace out and the new people go inactive

why the fuck do you think I am harpiong on people being active, activity makes games fun

when 3 people are bitching back and forth it gets old.

[PogoStick]

I will correct myself, the only time NL is acceptable is when MYLO

Day 1 is NEVER acceptable because you can afford a mislynch and the vote count on a mislynch will tell you alot about people later in the game. I am all for Vote analysis and you can't use a NL vote analysis because scum and town will both hop on that without any qualms.

[smargaret]

Zang has some good points about Hop, and I need to reread him (yuck), but I want to ask something first -

Hop, how is calling someone a VI an unacceptable insult but the phrase "fucking retarded and INSULTING" perfectly fine? Also, I find wall posts to be MUCH easier to read and keep track of in iso than multiple short posts of the sort you're prone to.

[Doombunny9]

Holy walls of text! I'm just going to skim through now seeing as I don't have much time. If I miss anything please point it out.

@Zang+HOMJ- Could you two, I dunno... Organize your walls a bit better in the future, parts of them can get confusing.

You went from Hop to GW. It seems unlikely that you'd move from bussing Hop to bussing another member of your scum team.

That explains why you changed your mind about Ghost (Although you're tunneling a lot), but why TM? (Yes, I realize this question is late but I just realized it XD)

@Zang- If I'm not mistaken, your top FoS is HOMJ, can you consolidate your reasoning into a short yet consice list for my sake?

Also, I've noticed you've said a lot about HOMJ and a bit about emp but what about the other players (And please, this time just make a short post about them. No walls again XD)

2. insulting a player is scummy
3. insult is anti-town becauseit is scummy play, there is no need to insult people

Can you expand on this? I agree with Zang that insulting isn't scummy (even though it is unsportsmanlike and poor play) unless it is used to do something scummy.

[smargaret]

Hop, do you still find Zang scummy? If not, what changed your mind? If so, what has he done today to reinforce your read?

So, in one page of Hop's iso, we have:
-vote Zang
-FOS TM
-FOS Ghost
-vote Empking

and no cases to go with any of them. Hop, you're doing the same thing you're accusing Empking of - why not provide town with cases against some of these people? Do you think the scumteam is contained in that set? Why haven't you gone after anyone but Empking today? In fact, I think I am the only person you haven't accused at some point today. Who are your top three scumpicks, and why? Do you think they're scum together?

Well atleast you have realized you are caught

More votes on emp please

Hop, you're not the town leader. Why are you trying to direct votes like this?

smargaret, I am not "trying" to look anything. I am playing the way I play. lack of activity is what makes these games boring and these days drag on forever when they don't have to. Emp is clearly scum yet nobody is around to do anything about it

You are trying to look town by policing activity. Lack of activity is generally anti-town, drawing as much attention to it as you are looks like you're going overboard trying to look townie, which is a scum tactic. I'm really not expressing myself well right now. It also makes me inclined to post less, since you have 246 posts in the thread right now and most of them don't say anything about the game. It makes it hard for me to read you because I get distracted or put it off, and that's bad for mafia. This is why we have a mod; please let him do his job.

12. I don't understand how a VI can be anti-town when V stands for village, if a person is anti-town than call hm an SI. VI implies that he is town, SI implies he is scum

Hop, have you never heard the term "village idiot" before? It's not just a mafia term. "Village" does not refer to alignment.

Now, I know you're smarter than this, so why are you trying to set up a semantics argument that doesn't contribute to the game? Also, if VIs are always town, and you are a VI (according to your own post, not insulting you here), are you saying that you are always, in every game you play, town? I kinda doubt that. Also, after reading your iso, you insult people all the time. Stop being hypocritical.

this is the best I can do to post responses to your crappy wall of text, if you do this again I am just going to ignore it because there is no easy way to dig through them to respond properly

If this is the case, why should we keep you around? It's pretty clear that this is Zang's playstyle, and if you are too lazy to respond to his points, how are you any better than Empking refusing to build cases? At least Empking has a reason for denying the town information, even if it's not one I agree with.

[smargaret]

Empking seems much better, now that he's actually given a case (that was the major thing leaving my vote on him so far). This may just be proximity to Hop, so I've still GMEOY.

I need to hear more from Primate, TM, bv, and SV's replacement to read them.

I'm not sure I like Zang coming in and landing on the biggest wagon; it's not the first time he's done this. Zang, who do you think is scum besides Hop?

I don't want to end the day yet - we have replacements I want to hear from first - but the more I read, the more I feel like Hop is the play today. He's probably scum, and his flip will give us the most information. I'm going to check the votecount and then move my vote.

[smargaret]

Ugh, I'm not comfortable putting you at L-1 when the last vote count was Saturday and I'm about to go to bed, and thus more liable to make a mistake counting later votes.

@ Mod, vote count please?

[Empking]

DB: Zang and bv are obv-town. So its a question between TM and Smarge for the fourth scum (If we ignore GW). I think Smarge's post are genuine scumhunting.

[PogoStick]

Zang has some good points about Hop, and I need to reread him (yuck), but I want to ask something first -

Hop, how is calling someone a VI an unacceptable insult but the phrase "fucking retarded and INSULTING" perfectly fine? Also, I find wall posts to be MUCH easier to read and keep track of in iso than multiple short posts of the sort you're prone to.

because VI is actually being referred to somebody, saying something is retarded and insulting is not being directed at a person, it's a general statement

@ DB - Insulting a player is scummy because I can't see what the town motivation would be. Maybe I am a bit off my rocker with being offended at the VI comment because I have accused others of VI, but I really don't like it and I probably won't call anyone a VI again. You want to call a player a bad player, than do it, but VI to me is just another example of name calling and unneccessary. It also puts that person on edge and makes them more defensive when they don't need to be.

@smargert - yes I find zang scummy, I have even declared him as my number 2 suspect. I find him scummy because he is defending empking who is obviously scummy, and I have posted my case on empking already also I provided a reason why I suspected BV also, he promises a huge catchup posts and basically ignores it all and places a very opportunistic vote on the largest bandwagon.

I am directing votes because it is obvious based on the fact that empking is purposely refusing to post his cases on people he finds scummy that he is not being motivated by town. as a town person there is no reason to withhold your evidence. He even said he would take it to the grave, this is not a pro-town motivated player. This is scum motivation, he just doesn't want to have to make up more lies.

I have not refused to build cases, I built a huge case on empking and nobody has disproven any of it, not even emp himself could not do a good job of defending himself

Empking has not even given a case, not a real one anyway so what the heck are you talking about smargaret?