Newbie 1038: Welcome to the Jungle! (Game Over!)

[Pinewolf]

/confirm

Hi everyone. This is my first game on this site, though i played on some other site about 2 years ago, which was more just joking, voting people every post, fast game, etc.

But in the time it took for this game to be created i checked out the wiki a bit and was reading some other newbie game threads (though just starting 3-4 pages mostly and perhaps a page or 2 before lynches).
I put together a list of 5 questions that i saw posted around in other threads at start.

1. What is the origin of your username?
2. Why did you choose your avatar picture?

And 3 with more point to them, other than fun.

3. What time zone are you in?

4. What's your expirience in playing mafia?

(Already asked)
5. Do you think it's easier to play as mafia or town?


PS. Mirror, i love your username, really creative. ^^

[Pinewolf]

Let me answer my own questions as well.

1. Just a random, cool sounding name i thought of a while ago.

2. Found it on google, using it cuz it fits well with my name.

3. GMT+1. Central Europe, so my english can be weird at times.

5. I would guess mafia is harder because you have to make it seem like you're scumhunting as well. But i can't say cuz this is my first game here.


Why will you not answer the questions david? They might not bring us closer to a lynch, but they're there as an ice breaker.

So for now,

Vote: DavidParker

, for not answering my questions.

[Pinewolf]

Fair enough. I shall keep that in mind for any future games.

[Pinewolf]

I find it interesting you just jumped on a bandwagon, giving no reason whatsoever. That puts him on L-2 and if the 2 mafia were here they could easily achieve a lynch for them.
Of course there's the option we are all right and he really is mafia, but it's too early to conclude that.

Unvote

Vote: BrentM

[Pinewolf]

@Tanstalas, I think you might have genuinely stumbled onto something. Though i think the 2nd option is also quite possible, since looking at his posts, they all have a similar feel, so i dunno...

@BrentM Well, considering it really is your first game it could be a simple mistake. Or scum trying to hide behind that excuse. I read a couple of threads here, i saw such stuff as well. I'm keeping my vote where it is for now.

[Pinewolf]

Well, i never said i agreed with the 3rd option. Re-read my post. I was actually more agreeing with the 2nd option as it just seems that DP is that kind of person.
And about putting a target on your back, it could be simply distancing away, so we don't suspect you 2 to be partners if either one you get's lynched.

I'm keeping my mind open to all the options.

[Pinewolf]

To me, BrentM still seems the scummiest one. Not really sure who i could see as his partner. Nobody else seems scummy atm. Maybe DP the most, but i think it's just his personality leaking into his posts. People react differently to different situations...

Doesn't seem too friendly, definitely not coaching. Snarky for the win

And let me hang onto this one a bit.

I am talking about the word definitely here. I think it's a bit of a too strong word to use here. Plus the whole attitude of the post is a bit so-so. I dunno. I find it pretty weird.

[Pinewolf]

@Pinewolf: Please tell me your exact intentions with the "definitely" accusation. It being too strong a word just doesn't seem to be any evidence for anything.

The thing is I'm sick and can't go anywhere out or do anything. I also don't have any movies here. So the only thing i can do is post here and lurk the internet. But nothing was happening here, so i decided to write that post as it was sure to generate some kind of discussion.
As far as i can tell it was successful. While i was sleeping you made a ton of posts. That is good. It gives me something to do, plus it moves things along. No discussion is boring and brings nothing to anyone. If anything it hides the scum better.

That would be that.
Let's move on, shall we?
I will copy Lunatics system and post my opinion on all players.

Mirror: A little nooby, but seems to have a good amount of common sense.

King: Can't really tell. Seems more nooby than scummy. Though it could be the other way around as well.

BrentM: Still my biggest suspect.

DP: Could be either way. Though his snarkyness seems like a personality trait to me.

Lunatic: With 1 post written, no clue...

Llama: Mostly IC type posts, so could go either way.

Tanstalas: Discussing game related stuff gives me nothing, tbh.

VOT: Seems inactive, will probably be replaced.

That would be it.

[Pinewolf]

@Brent. The reason's I mentioned already (minus the definitely accusation), plus a minor hunch.

[Pinewolf]

Yeah, pretty much. That's because i think little discussion benefits scum more. If you don't try people and see their responses you can't move on and really determine who is scum, imo.
Though since things are moving along now, i won't put up any more baseless accusations.

[Pinewolf]

@BrentM Lunatic replaced in. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't be able to communicate privately since the day already started. But i might be wrong. I don't know what way this works.

[Pinewolf]

I don't see it that way. I'm sorry, but i'm not a native english speaker, so that sounds exactly the way i wanted it to sound. :S
Talking from brentm's thought's perpective, that is...

[Pinewolf]

Well, what word should i have used? :S
This feels the same as my arguing of the word definitely to me...

[Pinewolf]

@pine - To explain the grammar part a bit (which is funny because I am horrible at it), using the word "we" implies that you are a part of the group. In this case, the 'we would be able to talk' means that you have the ability to talk with him, aka are mafia with him. In the event you are town the word you would be looking for is "they", a collective of people that does not include yourself.

I see. They also works. But i was thinking about it from the question's perspective, since it was a question about me and lunatic. That's why I used "we". If it were talking about some other 2 people i surely would have used they.

Looking back at this, he could have used the "we" in the context and grammar of the original question. However, I am still suspicious because his excuse is that he isn't a native english speaker, and he didn't say the grammar thing in his defense.

And I did say that in post #90, the second line. Though i worded it poorly...

Either way my bigger problem with Pine is that he seems to be testing the waters and leaving small marks on different wagons which would allow him to go back and forth between them as needed. In his most recent post there are five players that essentially have a "no read" attached to them, a flaker and a conflicted read on KTS.

I'm not really sure what to make of this. The no read's are simply me being new, so i can't really sniff out mafia from wording alone, plus my english skills can prevent that form time to time, though i do tend to read posts thoroughly because of that same reason.
And about testing the waters part. I don't really see myself going between various wagons. I pretty much stayed with BrentM as my main suspect for a while now. Can you explain this further, please?

@Pine - Can you summarize the Brent case?

The main reason i find him scummy is pretty much merely a hunch. As explained above, I'm not really the best as far as reading people's posts.
But it started with his vote on DP with which he joined the wagon on him. The next thing that made me suspicious of him was tanstalas post #25, where i could see the connection though really was leaning more towards the 2nd option, thus my comment: "I'm keeping my mind open to all the options." from post #30. After that it was mostly going after his use of word definitely in that context. Seemed too sure of it, but I think that's really just some grammar stuff, similar to our "we" debate. It never was a serious argument, but merely me being bored and trying to ignite a convo, which as far as i can see it, worked. That's that.

Though rereading stuff now, i think it really is pretty much nonexistent. It seems more like new guy talk than scum talk, tbh. :/

Which leaves me with a blank slate once again...

Unvote

[Pinewolf]

He says he made the accusation out of "boredom" and to get discussion going. I found that manipulative, something that mafia strive to be if I am not mistaken. But do not mistake me and think that I consider this worthy of a lynch. I find it suspicious but not worthy of a straight up lynch.

I think i should address this as well. I will not deny that it was manipulative. It was. No way around that. But the thing is, I don't like being bored. I kept checking if anything new was being posted whole day with no success. That's why i decided to reread the thread and find something that would get a discussion going. And the only thing around which i could say something was that...

[Pinewolf]

Any excuse can sound like a scum excuse if you convince yourself of it.

Don't misunderstand me. My hunch still stays. Though it is nothing more than a hunch. I just figured the arguments against you could also be interpreted as newbie opposed to scummy.
Well, i said i'm not really sure of who to be scummy in the last line of my giant post.
But, i think you may scum still, same for lunatic though that can be interpreted simply by him having some sort of complex or sth.

hmmm, now that i think of it. His actions could be interpreted as picking a wagon and jumping on it trying to make it pile more votes. Which is scummy. Though he did choose a very weird method, so that makes me unsure. :S

As for others, my opinion hasn't really changed from post #72.

[Pinewolf]

Well that certainly is so. As i said in my previous post, every excuse can be either a scummy one or a town one. It's up to people to interpret them the way they do.

As far as having to be extra meticulous in my posts. I mentioned in post #97, the third answer that exactly because my english can be a bit bad at times I tend to read posts more thoroughly and more than once. Same goes with formulating my posts. I tend to change words and the structure of sentences a couple of times each time I'm writing.

I don't really feel like reading through that topic to find the posts in which he uses the excuse, but i can tommorow perhaps. Unless you point me to them.

[Pinewolf]

I'm starting to think the same way, mirror.

@king When i quote i just open the quote button of the post in another tab then copy-paste the stuff i want in my post. And i keep that one in a separate tab as well. Also, i recomend notepad to save long posts. I simply use that.

[Pinewolf]

That puts me and Lunatic both at L-2 with 4 people not voting including me and him. So it's pretty much up to those people on who to lynch, influencing their votes is hard now. Pretty much depends on our past posts.
What i'm interested in is, if somebody could summarize the case against me so i can see if there's anything else making me look scummy other than that "definitely fiasco".

[Pinewolf]

I see. Well, nothing new i could say to defend myself springs to mind.
Well, me appearing lazy would be quite a baseless accusation. I made many posts and the fact i was bored, not lazy got me into trouble in the first place.

I shall listen to your advice and join a mini game. We'll see how that turns out. I should be able to handle 2 games.

As far as lunatic's case is concerned, i agree with it. King convinced me. I see him as the scummiest now. But i'm not too sure if i should vote for him and put him at L-1. Can any of the more expirienced users explain to me when it's wise to put someone at L-1 and when not?

I can learn, no problem with that. I'll definitely get some expirience from playing this game and all the other games i will play. Tbh, i already have a better knowledge of the game than when i started, though that seems pretty logical. But getting the ability to easily smell out scum might not come right away. Because right now i don't know what questions based on other people's posts i should make. I just don't see anything that stands out. :S

PS. Don't read too much into the second line of this post, it's just a joke. Just thought i'd put this here as i get the feeling that it could become some weird issue. :S

[Pinewolf]

Once again people read too deep in...
It was just a simple remark as i agreed with you. Plus, i don't care if you made a ton of accusation against me. This is a game, it's supposed to be fun. Not something personal.
So don't try to read too much into fun posts. I might post some from time to time. I'll remember to post a PS at the end of each post like my previous one, or you people will accuse me with every little thing you can find in my posts. -.-

VOT is posting far too little for my taste. It's starting to look a bit suspicious. Even the 2 posts he made had pretty much no content.

Err... the last replies are quite... lol.

VOT, can you explain what you meant with this post?

But at least until you do:

Vote: VOT

[Pinewolf]

Pine seems like OBV. scum at this point.

Oh and why do you think so?

[Pinewolf]

@mirror
I said you read into my fun post too deep. It wasn't really a relevant game post, just wanted to tell king how i make my posts. Thought i'd throw in something funny or sth. I thought it would be very obvious that it's not meant to be taken too seriously because of the smiley. I rarely use smilies. And if i do, take the post with a grain of salt.

Awfully convenient? Again, it's something that can be taken either way. In no way do I mean to abuse this and claim i meant a post to be fun when it was not. With as much reading into my posts as you guys do, i thought that would be obvious already...

Preview edit: I shall make another post concerning DP...

[Pinewolf]

1. Saying to "not look into posts too much" because they are just for fun. (127, How are we supposed to know which posts are "Just for fun"?)

Addresed in my previous post.

2. Deciding to go after the easy target (VOT), for lurking(127). Sure lurking can be a scum tell, but pushing a case on him this early isn't going to help us much.You even vote him because you "didn't understand" a post of his. Not because you found the post scummy.

Simple. I'm doing what was actually advised by tanstalas. Rereading and asking people questions. The vote is merely to add pressure, though he has no other vote on him, so it isn't really strong.

3. Saying earlier how you're not sure "who is scummy" (101) and that your reads "are just hunches" (ie: an explanation for when said player flips town, you can just say "oh it was just a hunch")

I'm new. Simple as that. I don't have a sixth sense for hunting mafia...

4. Stating that either you or Luna will be lynched since you're both at L-2(120). You realize this is early into day 1. There's every chance neither wagon will go through, and as a result of these wagons another, scummier wagon will kick off. (I'm actually unsure as whether or not this post is more likely to come from newbie scum or newbie town, but i'm leaning scum). Basically you are trying to force people to choose between two wagons when that is not the case (although as said, one wagon is on yourself, so I feel as if scum might try push the other wagon and a different wagon altogether). This point in itself could do with some discussion. THe reason I find it partly scummy is because you brought it up. IT's as if you are saying "i realize these are the two wagons, one needs to happen, but because I realize it, it shouldn't be me, but please remind me why I am scummy so I can make you think I'm not scummy and reply, so that you vote for the other guy" [That is the vibe I get from your post]. To be honest, I can see newbie-town making a post like this as well though, but the main thing making it scummy is the way you "shrugged off" the case on you as being worthless at the end of your post.

Again, sorry for being new. That assumption might have been a too fast one.

5. Reluctance to put Luna at L-1.(122) Why not do some scum hunting? If you don't think Luna is scummy enough to be put at L-1, who is scummy enough to earn your vote??? All you are doing is slowly easing us into the idea that you will eventually vote Luna.

I don't want to be called out on putting him at L-1 if someone hammers him. As you said, it's still early in day 1.

Hurry up and vote for Pine now!

tbh. I find this highly suspicious. What's the hurry? Why are you so eager to lynch me? Do you have some other motive than scum hunting? It really colides with your early in day 1 statement. I have been careful not to put anyone at L-1 because of exactly that reason. But you show us 2 different ideas in 1 post.

[FUN] I actually wish i was scum in this game. Because then i could say to myself: "You fucked up, they're onto you!" But alas, i can't. [/FUN]
Take that line any way you want to. The fact stays, it's meant to be there for fun. Just thought i'd point that out.

[Pinewolf]

I'd rather lynch someone day one because they have contributed and acted, but done so in a scummy way, than because they haven't contributed or acted at all. You get more information from lynching someone who has put down their thoughts and I find it's just as likely (if not more likely) to flip scum.

Lynching someone for "lurking" or not contributing gets us where? Day 2 lynches/discussion will largely be as a result of the flip(town or scum) of the person who gets lynched on day 1 (and to a lesser extent the night kill), so an information lynch (on someone who is scummy) is more desired than a lynch on someone for lurking/not doing enough. They can be dealt with at a later time.

Actually, here i disagree with you. Especially because this is a newbie game. It is highly more likely that the person talking a lot and getting called out for it is town as opposed to him being scum. Simply because there are more town than there are scum. If a town player starts getting regarded as scum, the mafia have pretty much 2 options. Help with putting a case together against him or simply trying to stay of the radar. Perhaps helping him, because they could say next day that if they were scum they wouldn't actually help him but be against him.
VOT might be the second, lurking, option of scum. But i'm starting to get really convinced of DP being the first one. Especially because of the line i was talking about in my previous post, plus he seems to be really aggresive towards me.

[Pinewolf]

I love how you just shrug off my accusations and say "oh it can be taken either way" everytime I make an accusation. Your not offering any hard evidence against my case against you(lol). You repeatedly brush off my case as being ridiculous, you vote for someone like VOT to get pressure off of you, and now you say we shouldn't take your posts seriously. Sounds like a panicking scum to me (might just be my newbishness though).

I don't want to manipulate the truth. I never have. (ignoring the brentm accusations of his word use). I explained the VOT vote in my previous post.
I never said you shouldn't take my posts seriously. That's just blatant manipulating. I said that I

might

make more fun posts and that i would make it really obvious that it was meant for fun. I also explained how to notice a previous fun post.

Everything

is there. You just have to read my posts thoroughly. I'm starting to hate the fact that i have to write everything 2 times to you mirror. For as much as you look for inconsistencies in my posts, you fail to notice my posts as whole and what i already adressed and what not...

[Pinewolf]

Then it looks like we have different opinions on what manipulating means...

Hollow accusations i don't think so. It's not about putting somebody at L-1 or L-2. His posts make it seem like he wants to

lynch

me. Which is inconsistent with what he's saying in the exact same post. It seems like he's hiding behind a case against me but adding subtle hints into his posts. I wrote something similar in that post, yet you decided to ignore it...

Ok, this is starting to become pointless. I obviously won't change your mind, no matter what i say. I responded to all the accusations multiple times and i really don't feel like repeating myself anymore. I'm not gonna respond to same accusations time and time again. Even if it's something from this very post...

[Pinewolf]

um, claim in what way?

And yes. The post right above mine shows exactly what i was conveying with it. That i'm getting annoyed with all the accusations...

[Pinewolf]

oh, missed this sarcastic masterpiece.

So, who's your scum buddy?

You are...

[Pinewolf]

lolwut? I'm not at L-1? huh...

No problem DP.

@mirror. I was talking about DP wanting to lynch me, not you. (again...)
It was what you quoted. That bunch of questions. I'm sorry that it might not be perfectly clear and it confuses (or sth) you. It's merely the same thing said with different words.

[Pinewolf]

Noticed...

[Pinewolf]

@king Yes, i have. Here it is.

I'm starting to think the same way, mirror.

@king When i quote i just open the quote button of the post in another tab then copy-paste the stuff i want in my post. And i keep that one in a separate tab as well. Also, i recomend notepad to save long posts. I simply use that.

[Pinewolf]

Google Docs works pretty well for long posts, too.

That is indeed a good thing to use. Thanks for the tip mod. ^^

[Pinewolf]

@king
Yes. It is indeed that post...

PS. What is in that picture? I can't figure it out. :S

[Pinewolf]

I see... :S

[Pinewolf]

hmmm, I've noticed BrentM a couple of times online today reading the thread but not responding to it. I'd be interested in your opinion on all that has happened recently, brent.

[Pinewolf]

Woah, that's a lot of text. :O

I really got nothing to add to all this. I agree with the suspicion of DP, he's at the top my mafia list atm. With mirror not far behind. Lunatic's explanation sounds reasonable though i wonder about his last post. I'll wait to see brentm's response before i judge him more. I got nothing on tanstalus and Llama, except that they seem to know what they're doing. Though the small amount of posts makes it harder to get a read on them. VOT is lurking, stays number 3 on list. And king seems pro town, making a bunch of good posts with solid cases and good reasoning.

What does tbh mean?

It means: to be honest...
I can't believe you don't know this. :S

Also, anything can be interpreted as anything if you try hard enough

That's what i said at least 2 times by now and mirror kept saying i'm manipulating the truth...

[Pinewolf]

Ok, after reading through all of this I am starting to lean a little more towards Pine not being scum, he has explained himself as best as he could. But I still don’t like that VOT vote, that really confuses me, regardless of not wanting to be blamed for causing a hammer on lucas. That vote seems like the easy way out and worrying more about himself then about getting rid of scum.

I'm pretty sure I stated my reasons when i voted him. At the time it was lurking and trying to put a little pressure on him with it. But i have been observing the online people list these past few days and i haven't seen him online once, so it's not really lurking, but more like being away all the time. I think he would need to be replaced.

With that, the vote really has no strength.

Unvote

Ok, Ive been thinking about this some more, and I think Pine and Llama are the scum team. Here is my case against them based on my opinions of Llama's posts

Sorry for typos, its late

Spoiler:

- (post #45) follows his scum bud's lead, and votes for me to try and pull public opinion against me.

- (Post #50) Tries to convince King to vote for either me or DP (I mention this here because I think he was testing the waters on public perception of me).

- (post #52) Valid point, but he sure bashes my pine vote pretty quickly, not having bashed any other votes yet. I voted his scum friend, and he needed to make it look pointless

- (post #59) After mirror calls him out and public perception of my actions change, he probably realizes it might look like scum buds on a non scum vote so he quickly changes tactics, and lays low for a while.

** it is at this point that Llama seems to have picked a new target in Mirror (who just so happened to have voted for Pine in post #65)

- (post #83) Trying to get Mirror's heat off of pine and on to lunatic.

- (post #94) Random claim of DP being town, and now throws Mirror in the scum bucket with his buddy Pine. Gives Pine an out from some recent accusations, but yet still throws a town view to keep the image

- (Post #102) clearly tried to get Mirror to vote for lunatic again, now here he also claims he has finals and that he will address pine later.

- (post #141) After posting in another game thread all night (6 times after he said he would be away), he comes back to our game the next day and votes lunatic, the popular vote, while throwing an opinion out there that he doesn't like the pine voting going on.

Llama's actions to me just seem like something a really smart scum player would be doing. Protecting his newbie scum buddy, while trying to change public opinion on others (Mirror) and maybe force a lynch of an innocent. (Lunatic) I feel like I have enough evidence to do a vote, so I

Vote: LlamaFluff

I'd also like to know what's up with that last point. Though i don't agree with the first line of the post. The case seems strong, no denying that. But it has 1 flaw. I have not been discovered as scum. As a matter of fact nobody knows what anyone is. If you ask me, the case that you made seems to fit more for day 2 after a mafia member was lynched the first day and you're trying to find the connection to his partner in previous' days posts. I'm not saying it's bullshit or anything, it's solid, just that it only works under assumption i'm also scum.
Because the other option could be Llama is thinking of me as newbie town as opposed to DP who seems to think i'm newbie scum. Another option as well would be him having one of the roles, like cop or doctor and is thus trying to protect a player who he thinks is town while not posting too much as to not get a lot of focus to him.
I can see you only thought about it in one way. Which of course can be accounted to newbieness, but it could be the work of a mafia player who knows that both him and his partner are goons and thus trying to attack the fewer posting people hoping to somehow find the cop or the doctor.
Though that's just my understanding of the situation. I'm not trying to buddy with Llama or anything like that. I'm just stating the facts as they are. Again, i'm not saying your case has no value or anything, but that it's the type of case that actually has many different possibilities to it and which fits day 2 more.

So for now i also ask Llama to address me like he planned already.

But as much as DP's eagerness to lynch me has been forgotten and applied to his personality, i'm not really buying it. There was just too much of that. It seems far too suspicious....
I really might be overthinking here but it's the only thing i can say something about apart form agreeing with what was posted recently.

[Pinewolf]

Hmpf. Seems like anything i say even if it's meant as lighting all the options is simply thrown away and regarded as scrambling defense or paranaoid defense or sth. If we go by your logic it's suspicious how you defend DP in this last post. It could mean you and him are scum buddies. Same logic as with your case about me and Llama. And also let's not forget about that early post #24 of his. It's the same deal. I would also like if you point me to this game you're talking about.
Let the man speak on his own already. He doesn't need you and mirror answering my questions and accusations meant for him. It enables him to lurk around without having to answer anything. When i'll want you answering a question of mine i'll make sure it's a question for you, and not for DP.

I have played no newbie card on you. I have simply put light so many other options your theory can be seen as. If you wish to read it as a scrambling defense it's up to you. But it's been said many times that anything can be taken as anything if you believe in it. You seem to believe in your theory a lot. That's why i decided to show you the hole in your theory plus other options that are entirely possible.

[Pinewolf]

This is starting to be really frustrating. Making me even pissed of a bit. As i said i hate to have to repeat myself, but once again, my reasoning is completely ignored and it’s assumed i’m scum no matter what. Most of what i did can be ties to tatalas’s post where he gave some advice. I’m merely following that. It’s what the expirienced players are here for, to help us newbies with any questions or advice. Something DP is clearly not doing, which again can be seen as suspicious.

Now on to the answering all the posts.

I'm still pretty sure Pine is scum.

All his posts just aren't thought through using town logic.

I am terribly sorry, like really very very sorry to be a newbie. I have no idea what town logic or what scum logic would be. Please explain that thoroughly with examples or poor newbie me will have no clue what you’re talking about.
At the start of the game i have tried to make some cases and push the discussion forward. Now where has this brought me? To everybody accusing me of being scum, ignoring most of what i say and just interpret anything i say to be a scum tell. Especially you DP. You are FAR too sure of yourself. I’ll address this more further down.

Oh cool. You just said the 2 people who were pushing your lynch the hardest are the two scummiest people in the game and are likely scum buddies. I would classify that as "flailing" around and getting a bit desperate. (It's a bit silly to bring up site meta, but that's just something that doesn't really occur, blatant support of scum buddies etc, although meta alone isn't really reason to explain why it's silly). It's silly because it's a huge OMGUS. You just stated the two people who are the scummiest are the two going after you and your reasoning is because the way we are pushing so hard for your lynch is scummy... Umm okay. That's silly.

As far as i know, i have only accused you of trying to push for a lynch too much. Which is no fairy tale. You did. NO going away from that anymore. It’s there. Everyone has seen it. You are the more expirienced player of the 2, mirror is just a newbie. Just like me, or brent, or lunatic or king. Mirror is said is not far behind. And you wanna know the exact reason why? Of course you do. It’s something i also said already. He was ignoring half (or so) the stuff in my posts and just rambling on with his accusations. He admited he was just trying to pressure myself and that’s ok. What you’re doing is not just pressuring me. You’re pushing for a lynch because you, and ONLY you are 100% certain i am scum. Why would you be so sure i am scum? Are you scum and you know who the townies are and you just picked the one with the most heat on him and decided he’ll be your target? Here’s 2 questions for you. For real this time.
As far as saying it’s OMGUS, i don’t think so. Considering that it was mostly a 3 way convo, of course i looked for potential mistakes in both your posts. I also pointed them all out. But like everything you toss them away, which is something I was accused of. Namely just disregarding the cases against me. Which was bullshit and was shown that way as well.

Then your number 3 is a lurker who has done nothing. Firstly, your calling out the people going after you as scummy, then you throw down the "hey the lurker guy is scum!", which is just a typical deflection move that scum use on day 1 when they are under pressure. They want to try start another wagon or get people to notice someone else scummy sot hey highlight someone who has done something that's a slight scum tell (ie: lurking) and try push a case. But really, pushing this case doesn't help town. If you think VOT is scummy you would pressure him to post more and post more content, and ask him questions. Voting him and calling him a lurker does NOTHING. That is not pro-town behaviour.

We already established that we disagree as far as lurkers goes. So i’ll ignore the lurker stuff. But. What i am interested in is why do you think only a scummy player would go and point fingers at others trying to divert the attention? (oh my, another question for our dear DP). Why do you think a town player that is getting attacked for his every post would not deploy the same strategy? (another one omg). And sorry if i’m wrong but i thought the point of this game was trying to find the scum, not deciding to look at one player and only that player disregarding all the other options as that is clearly what you are doing right now.

I'm sorry. I actually chuckled to myself. I was actually going to respond to King's post and just tear it to peaces but I can see he's trying. (And I think he's probably town but due to different reasons to you, I just get a newbie town vibe from him). King's huge wall post was useless. What good points did he make or solid cases???
ALL king did was quote mass posts and explain what happened in a post by post format. That's useless. He just repeated what was in all the posts and posted nothing of substantial worth. Maybe there was 1 or 2 good points in the huge wall, but overall it was generally useless (apologies for the harsh words king, i know you seem new but that's just my impression of your post)
Seriously, go re-read his wall (173) and tell me how much of that was anything new or actual thought out opinions. It was just a commentary of what people said. Useless. Yet, you claimed he's town because of it.

I’m sorry for being a newbie. I really am. To me it seemed the way i said it did. If you and your expirience think otherwise, fine. OK. I’m am totally fine with it.

Essentially, your posts don't show town-like thought and reasoning. Your town read on king is entirely off because he hasn't done anything in terms of useful scum hunting with solid reasoning and good cases. He posted a huge wall of "blah". If anything, I find him slightly town because he's making an effort and has done some newbie-town tells. But often, you'll find newbie-scums who play in these games by making mass wall posts responding and commenting on everything (kinda like king did) as their way of "scum-hunting" and seeming "pro-town". As it stands, I don't think king is scum but that's subject to change. I also partly think he's town, because I'm pretty sure you're scum and this just gives me the impression of scum buddying to town by calling his posts useful and solid reasoning etc etc.

Once again, sorry for being new and not really having the hang of what you consider town-like thought and reasoning. I do stuff the way i think is right. And clearly i was wrong somewhere as i’m getting atattcked left, right, behind and front... About king addresses above.
Also once again, that great certainty that i’m scum. Also already addresed.

So i'm guessing one of these two is your scum buddy.

No. You are. Remember?

@Pine: Oh dear, you just keep offering me more and more bait. You now suggest Brent and I are scum buddies? So basically anyone who attacks you is a likely scum buddy with me because I'm attacking you (the most), and if two people are attacking you they are scum buddies.. That's some poorly thought out reasoning.

Don’t be so self centered please and reread my post. It was mostly a hypotetical post explaining how accusations of scum partners are pretty much pointless until you have one of them dead. I only mentioned you because he mentioned you in his post. It’s quite simple really. If i go by your logic from this reply i should see you, brent and mirror as a scum trio and that doesn’t really work, now does it?

Final point: I think it's more likely tanst is scum with Pine than Llama at this point. Tanst has stated how he's "slowly warming to pine being town" which seems silly from an experienced player. Pine has done nothing to show himself as being more town than before. All he has done is post more and respond to more accusations, but he hasn't done it well.

Hasn’t done it well... Your opinions. And you are too sure i’m scum. No, you are already convinced i am scum. Nothing i post will change your mind. I know your kind, trust me on that.

@Pine: Just what questions do you want me to asnwer? I'll go re-read through quickly but I'm not quite sure what you want explaining.

Nevermind. It was mostly useless question, more like accusations now that i read again. I put some into this post i want you to answer. I’m pretty you can find them. If not i’ll make sure to underline them next time.

@Pine: Although you are still the top on my scum-suspicion list, you have provided a case for yourself. A case that, for the time being, keeps my vote off of you. I do not think you have much solid evidence for yourself though. Merely your attitude doesn't feel extraordinarily scummy to me (could just be that my scum-radar hasn't developed). You do make a huge thing about the "Llama and you being scum buddies" thing that I don't agree with though. Yes the accusation assumes you are scum, this is true, but don't all accusations? We know there are 2 scum, both are looking out for each other, you and Llama follow this quite perfectly. It is to our best interest to discover who could be your possible accomplice if you turn out to be scum, that way we have something to go off D2.

I merely posted other options to that theory. Simple as that. Already addresed.

I'm sorry but this is just another scummy statement of Pine's. I agree Brent did "defend" me to a certain extent, (he posted a case on llama+pine being scum, and suggested I was town, that's defending to a certain extent, but he didn't "fight my battle for me") but the best part of this: Pine telling brent to let me answer the questions and accusations myself. What questions? I just read back through your last couple posts, you aren't questioning me at all, you don't even make any accusations, just say "Oh I don't agree that DP is town for aggressively pushing a lynch as part of a personality thing, in fact I think he's scum", that's all you've said, There's nothing to respond to.


Once again, you then repeat: "Question for DP" in your post.

WHERE ARE THESE QUESTIONS!?!?!? In fact, you've stated me as your most likely scum candidate, but your recent posts just ignore me and just included a little line at the end saying "oh i think DP is scum". Stop flailing.



Sidenote: I'd fully support a push on Pine's wagon at this point, leading to a claim, and a subsequent hammer with the way he has acted recently. A scum flip is almost certain.

First part already addresed. Second already addresed.
Last part, once again his great assurness of me being scum. Suspicious. Also explained why suspicious.

I am on my phone, so it is too difficult to quote your previous post, but Pine you did try and blame my theory on "newbieness". That is playing the newbie card.

And you made a general statement about DP, seemingly to get others to back you. I'm not allowed to comment on it if I disagree and have evidence for my disagreement? I'll give you a link to the game after I get off work.

Well, ok. Putting like that i might have, but we are all newbies here (well, almost), so nothing too weird there...

You are allowed to do anything you want just as i’m allowed to do anything i want.

For what Brent has been saying, his entire case hinges on Pine being scum first. If Pine is town, just about every point against me is gone since I am no longer trying to "get suspicion off a scum buddy".

[/quote][/quote]

Exactly what i said, but nobody listens to me and are totaly sure of their posts, so they disregard mine and put them to their scum tell pile, no matter the content.


I think this concludes my massive wall of text post. All i want to add is that If the attitude seems a bit too aggresive to any of you or sth it’s because i’m tired of repeating the same things over and over, which i already said yesterday.

Lastly, I can agree with Llama’s view on things. What he pointed out about mirror seems like a good point even though i don’t think DP is completely town. Though another idea popped into my head right now. Which i won’t reveal as it was said that it’s not such a good idea to do and it may destroy the town’s chances. But if i’m right it could mean good things for town. Just don’t waste it DP.

Though it’s only a hunch, but all i can do is post hunches and try to find some irregularities in other people’s posts as most of the time i have to defend myself.

[Pinewolf]

Ugh, sorry for the wall of text, but i felt like i need to post this. Just fyi, this takes up almost whole 5 pages on MS Word.

[Pinewolf]

Exactly. That's all you've accused me of. How is that even scummy? If you thought someone was scummy, surely you would push for their lynch. That's how this game works. You figure out or try to figure out who scum are and try get them lynched. That's what I'm doing. And you are saying me scum-hunting is a scum-tell. That's where I see your biggest slip to be. I agree I can be self-centered and overly confident, but that's my way of pushing my case and trying to show others how scummy you have been (and to further my case on you, as rude/aggressive behaviour is more likely to get a reaction from you so I can confirm my scum-read; something that has happened)

As for your questions and "requests" for explanations, I have no desire to get into some distracting "back and forth" with you. Especially now since you are treating this whole thing as a joke ("I am terribly sorry, like really very very sorry to be a newbie. I have no idea what town logic or what scum logic would be. Please explain that thoroughly with examples or poor newbie me will have no clue what you’re talking about." ).

Furthering a back and forth argument between the two of us will distract town and not benefit us in later scum hunting.

I'm not saying you shouldn't scum hunt. Never said that, never implied that. Just that i disagree with your reasoning, which is to be expected.
I've done some thinking, i can see you being town. This is far too pushy for a mafia member... Please read the end of my giant post again, i hope you can think of what i'm implying. I'm not gonna repeat myself on that.

But with all seriousnes. I really am interested in your definition on town logic and scum logic.

[Pinewolf]

As far as all this DP scum thing goes, I'm undecided. The fact that he attacked me so much and all your arguments for, makes me think he's scum, but on the other hand my "gut" feeling is telling me otherwise.

On the other hand mirror is seeming scummy from what tanstalas has pointed out. I have nothing to add to that.

I'm really not seeing the Llama case here. It all comes down from me being scum but as far as i know, i'm not scum.

Brent, tanstalas and king seem like townies.

VOT is not even here so no clue.

About lunatic, i find this post of his interesting.

The more I read. the more I'm leaning pine for scum. I just can't bring myself to vote for him yet.

I'm still new to the game so I was wondering if everyone could give a list of their scum tells?

This might sound funny, but what the hell.

Why is it that you can't vote for me yet? Are you perhaps afraid of getting attacked back or sth? If you're so sure that i'm scum vote for me. Add a point or 2 why you think i'm scum and we have a discussion rolling. With small posts like that one, you're not really adding anything.
The other thing is why do you want what other people's scum tells are? Not people's opinions of other players, but actual scum tells. I'm feeling a slight slip here. Like you don't know on which wagon you should go on and so you ask other people to make a better view for yourself.

I know i might be overthinking here but i'm trying to scum-hunt and make the discussion involve everyone. Also i'm pretty sure some of you are gonna put this against me, like all my posts.

[Pinewolf]

Sorry if this might sound stupid but... What is this "this" you mentioned?

[Pinewolf]

ugh, pretty sure i already addressed that in my giant post. Let me check.

Yep, here it is:

@Pine: Just what questions do you want me to asnwer? I'll go re-read through quickly but I'm not quite sure what you want explaining.

Nevermind. It was mostly useless question, more like accusations now that i read again. I put some into this post i want you to answer. I’m pretty you can find them. If not i’ll make sure to underline them next time.

[Pinewolf]

I see...
So the general idea is still lynch me...
Well, i got nothing new on anyone. Can't really add anything.
I'm merely a vanilla townie. But if you want to lynch me, go ahead, so I can apply for another newbie game.

[Pinewolf]

You've been on my back almost this entire game and it is really starting to seem like a hollow case honestly. *shrug* I might have made some typos and mistakes here and there; but your constant persistence of lynching me when there is no real evidence to back your claims is really starting to get tiring. It almost seems like you have singled me out to chase down and get lynched. All mistakes and "scumtells" that you have blamed me for are merely mistakes on a newbie player's part. Sure if you use reverse psychology you can see that certain tactics in the long run are bad for town, but I am trying my best here. I haven't read any games (except for a few pages in newbie game 1033), I haven't played any other games; any advice that comes to mind that seems good at face value appears worthwhile in my mind, even if scum often use it to deceive others.

Ok. Now change yourself with me and Llama with DP and you pretty much have our situation...

[Pinewolf]

For those wanting to lynch me: "I tried to tell you, but you don't listen."

[Pinewolf]

Very good points. But I still feel Pine to be the scummiest here. Although my reasons for thinking that seem so distant now. I still kinda don't believe your whole "english isn't my first language" thing; however, I do not have any sort of a meta to back my suspicion, so to be fair I have to consider that as being true for the most part.

Well. I live in the country called Slovenia and last time i checked we speak slovenian here. With english being the foreign language taught in schools. I might be one of the better english speakers around, but truthfully, the bar for that is low and i am prone to mistakes, especially grammar and such. But anything more is not important. Just thought i'd share that with you all.
If you still don't believe me, say so and i will write you a bunch of stuff in slovenian.

VOT hasn't responded to his prod, and thus will be replaced. I'm sorry I can't do much more for you guys atm, but I have a 12-page research paper due in three days, and a virus just annihilated my first draft, so I'm not going to be around all that much for the next couple of days.

Just get us VOT's replacement and we're fine on our own.


Now about other people:

Llama: Seems townie to me, nothing really to convince me otherwise.
DP: I'm torn between townie and scum with him. Like really 50-50.
Brent: Townie.
VOT: nothing.
Tanstalas: About 60-40 on him in favor of him being a townie.
Mirror: Certainly seems scummy to an extent.
King: Town
Lunatic: Should post more, as far as his current posts are concerned he seems a bit scummy.

To summarize. I think Llama, king and brent are town. The others are all a bit more so-so.

I would really like to hear your opinion on all this lunatic. And not just another 2 line post, but a real opinion. Because you're not participating enough. Though i kinda have a feeling he will have to be replaced as well...

[Pinewolf]

Welcome singersinger.

[Pinewolf]

DP, i see there is something we can definitely agree on. People can't read sarcasm. At all.

This goes especially to tanst's post. The sarcasm in the first quote is really obvious. As is the sarcasm in the quote singer dug up.

Just for the record. I'm not trying to buddy or anything anyone. I'm just stating a fact. You people need to loosen up and learn to read sarcasm. Not everything has to be dead serious.

Just my 2 cents.

Preview edit: i'm pretty sure he meant exclamation mark.

[Pinewolf]

Pine: do you feel as though you can get away with anything in this game by chalking it up to sarcasm?

Nope. If a post wasn't meant to be sarcastic it won't read as such. At least that's how i see it. And i consider myself to be good at reading sarcasm.

Plus about that statement of DP's. I considered it sarcastic and to be read in a different voice since he posted it. It's hard to explain what i mean, especially for me.

[Pinewolf]

Pine, despite the fact I still think you're scum I actually really enjoy being in this game with you because you have brought a lot of life and you actually have a personality and seem to be enjoying the game (and you use sarcasm and understand it as well)

Stop it, you make me blush.

[Pinewolf]

Wiki says it means village idiot.

[Pinewolf]

Well this game got to a bit of a standstill...

I've been a bit busy, but not anymore though. I will reread the last couple of pages and post more starting tomorrow the latest.