Objection Redux - It's all over bar the shouting!

[AlmasterGM]

I honestly don't remember what logic I had for that assessment last night. It is quite probable there was none. But, looking at it now, I just feel like he reads more like "busy" whereas Vezok and PZ read like "lazy and/or scummy." But maybe I'm just a sucker for AtE.

Re: Neighborizer - So it's both confirmable and unconfirmable at the same time. LOVELY.

[DTMaster]

I apologize for not checking in (been busy) I won't be able to post till Sunday afternoon.

However Papa Zito is an idiot and I need to claim right now.

I'm a Beloved Princess

. I asked and my role of course makes night be extended by 1 phase if I am killed at night. Lynching me doesn't extend the day phase and it acts like a normal lynch. Therefore I suggest that 2 phases before predicted lylo you auto lynch me if I'm alive then. Or take care of me now.

As an aside: I'm going to post my arguments in the objectionifier for lols (but I'll post my arguments in thread if you don't want to read it Phoenix Wright style).

Self note: A wagon analysis is a good idea. Normal patterns in a normal 3 scum team predict that usually 2 scum would be on VV's wagon and 1 off. Normally you'd have 1 bussing scum (possibly Rhinox). Anti-town town is an easy wagon to slip under.

Also for reference you may question about but a summary of my reads are.

Fate is obv town to his meta.
UK is playing to her meta. Fate's day 1 case on her is lolololololol because that's how she's been playing for a while now.
I want to investigate Vezok due to his early game play (eg his day 1 vote argument) but Rhino's easiness to vote him makes me question it. I need to reread Rhinox to verify a few things.
Eli isn't playing to her usual aggressiveness CAPsLOCK style and is playing to her LURKER SCUM STYLE seen in CEBM. I wouldn't mind if she died at the moment.

I'll post fully on Sunday with quotes/etc explaining the above arguments. For now I'll be useful and do something.

Vote Vezok

Edit: I just read the claim . DURHHHHHHHHPPPPPPed. I cross checked his post dates and Vezok posted Tuesday, and Thrusday so he had time to check in and do something during the night since he was on the site voting in another on going game. To me that's a poor excuse since Vezok even said in his last post on Tuesday before the hammer that he'd be going on a M_O case on Day 2.

[DTMaster]

Ehh what the heck this is what I got done. It's not complete but explains the reads


1. Everyone's probably used to the Vezok unvote at the start of the game. Scum points for the man for being picky about his vote on page 2 (since he didn't vote again). Wagons are good for information. Quick lynches are even better (and extremely unlikely to be derived from town especially with this player list) for analysis.

I'd Vote/Kill the man right for that unvote right thar.

Objectionified

2.UK is being UK. Her vote on Faraday and her stance on SP is normal. So Fate's case is full of water in my eyes due to UK meta.

Heck her stance on concision with posts stems from her “pro-town hunting” theory. It's not new and all of this is typical UK.

Objectionified

3. Ihmo I can get behind the Fate's VV case except Fate is a night action magnet regardless of alignment (since he's quite unreadable). Vig, maybe not, other actions, sure. Though this is a good thing since your offense is a change from your scum game that I played with you “whew”.

Even though I know the VV punch line, it's something that I'd do as a secondary option. Overall Fate = town.

Objectionified

Aside: FYI Fate if you are seriously mentioning that this RRUA acryonym is scum code, it's Vi who would be scum since that's who's quoted in the post. Not Rhinox.

My interpretation: Its a game that all these people were in.

Hindsight: Also The Rhino vote on VV still is valid. Not a distancing argument, but an easy wagon argument.

Issue though: It's like page 3 and little content to work off. Any vote will be hyper analyzed at this point, thus the lulz vote could be a lulz vote. It's page 3.
Conclusion: Based on the vote argument, I don't think it's strong enough. Rhino's question about Vi's wagon fit's with UK's definition of fluff questions. That I see.

Result: I'd like more info about Rhino.

PS: Vezok wagon is epic yoh. Don't dis it, let the sheep sheep there.

3. HOLY SHITTY SHITTY SHIT. RHINO BECAME UBER SCUMMY

Stop caring about other people's interpretation of you (in this case the OMGUS clause) and start caring about hunting scum. This is totally not townie:

The town mind set: “I'm voting scum. I don't care lolz”
The scum mindset: “You want me to vote for this guy?. But OMGUS suckz so I won't vote lol. I'll sheep this wagon. I don't want to defend his ass again from last game.”

Rhino should be lynched for this post alone. If you think VV is town you defend with all your might. If you think VV is scum you lynch with all your might. Ihmo you don't stop caring about players when you're tired of their play. Nor do you care about appearances when you're defending against Fate.

You judge them based on what you think their alignment is and hell, I'd take subpar players that I feel are town over neutral good players anyday.

As you can see I kind of stopped when I just read that Rhino was scum V.V.

[Fate]

I told you he was confirmed town. Will respond to mangomndaymango

[DTMaster]

Information I found during a Rhinox reread.

1. There's a weird dynamic between Jahudo/Vezok. At the start Rhinox agrees with Jahduo, then calls him scummy during his unvote for Vezok for the soft claim. There's a weird willingness in the subtext that Rhinox's willing less to jump on the Vezok wagon. Then he distances himself from agreeing with Jahudo with "game play reasons".

Aside: I went to double check the soft claim, which I think was this:

Please don't shot me. I have a sweet role and I don't want to get shot. And I don't want Fate to get shot either.

Which is weird because I thought this was a mason/lovers soft claim. A Neighbourizer though fits with this claim since Vezok did set up his intent to target Fate. Hmmmmmm.

I'm questioning this Vezok Day 1 case. It might be a case of the VV-ism (ie anti-town syndrome that got hyper analyzed on day 1).

2. Rhino's Calls out UK and M_O as well.

I notice this in Rhino's argument against M_O

Well like I said, at the beginning of the game, I felt like possibly Fate was just tossing around some shovels and VV was the first to start digging himself into a hole. I don't so much think that VV was trying to do stuff as he was panicking.

I don't feel like I was posting any more fluff than anyone else in the first couple pages in the game. The only difference being I was limited access from the start of the game. By rights maybe I shouldn't have posted at all until I could give full effort but I felt I should at least attempt to participate at the start rather be completely non-existent until now.

Which is ultimately ironic since Rhino is pointing fingers at people attacking VV poorly, yet he's agreeing with the VV scum read (awesome to read in hind sight), but shows similar patterns to bandwagon the M_O wagon if it does switch. People should have done more rereads.\

The UK arguments seem quite flawed.

I'm not sure, but since there is quite poor coordination of the arguments outlined in the M_O/UK/Jahudo/VV/Vezok wagon the subtext reads as: "Get anything to stick."

This with my Fate read leaves a super alliance bloc of 5 main people:

*Uk
*Fate
*Jahudo
*Magnus
*Vezok

I'd reread Vezok.

For now I downgrade the scum rating on Vezok to conflicted and be as investigation level. The above bloc I would consider to be the POWARFUL LAYWERS with what I read from Rhino's posts and poor arguments.

[DTMaster]

Hey AGM this post:

1. Where you called out that VV was both telling the truth but at the same time dismissed both Meta arguments because VV's play style was different (e.g. you said that it was getting sloppier in comparison to the other games that VV punted).

Can you link these games and show how?

. I don't care if we know VV is town, but I want to know WHY you came to the conclusion that stated that VV is acting as town meta but is different enough to be scummy even though you didn't take the time to consider it.

Meta calls like this usually cause town players to get very paranoid (e.g. Like me playing with Tubby back in Battle Mage Mafia again from my first newbie game). The way you easily dismiss this to be scummy is odd considering your round about argument that you posted.

[DTMaster]

AGM also: D1, even though knowing that Rhino was scum, did you think he was town at all? Using only knowledge from D1 around the time of the link post above.

[Jahudo]

Vezok's role is confirmable easy enough, but his alignment isn't. Its probable he could have forgotten to use his role.

Vi avatar clone

DTMaster's claim is probably a good thing to reveal early, but I'm so unfamiliar with it that I wouldn't know whether Papa Zito may have been playing like a princess. He wasn't high on my list of suspects yesterday and it remains that way.

Back to Rhino:

Elli and PZ are prob town right now for meta reasons, they both seem kinda lurkerish with little content but with both of them I've seen them each 2 or 3 times just like this and every time they were town.

This looks like a good opportunity to pair a buddy and a townie together with vague meta reasons that he thought he wouldn't have to back up. Neither was a big lynch choice, so if one remained that way he could keep claiming meta reasons for not suspecting a buddy while the hard-to-lynch townie remained hard-to-lynch.

So yeah, I'm also beginning to smell blood in the direction of Elli.

[DTMaster]

I'm more interested in Almaster at the moment. My nose is there so I'm changing my vote

Unvote, Vote Almaster

. Prepare for DTM vs Almaster folks :3

[UncertainKitten]

@Fate: If DT is town, I am NEVER playing a motherfucking Faraday-mod game. EVER. Fucking. Again.

Beloved Princess is a TERRIBLE ROLE!

I hope like HELL he's lying.

Question for DT: If you are lynched do we *also* have two night phases? Because seriously, that's utter bullshit if so.

@DT: Why is Almaster better than Elli?

[Faraday]

Vote count 2.3

Ellibereth (3)

GammaGooey, Sociopath, UncertainKitten

Vezokpiraka (1)

SpyreX

magnus_orion (2)

Fate, AlmasterGM

AlmasterGM (1)

DTMaster

Not voting (4):

Jahudo, Vezokpiraka, , Ellibereth, magnus_orion

With 11 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Deadline's 17th of December at 3pm GMT.

[Fate]

I agree that a role that costs town daylight savings time either way in a mini was not too well planned.

[Gammagooey]

Considering that this ISN'T a mini, the claim makes a lot of sense to me- I'm thinking Faraday balanced it like he would a mini and added in the beloved princess to account for town having an extra lynch with 14 total people, AND having a vig around means it's not nearly as game-changing as it would be otherwise.

@DT- having Vezok on your alliance list is booooooo. Rhino's easy vote on him makes him a littttttle more likely town but his attacking him While unvoting him later could pretty easily be distancing IMO.

[AlmasterGM]

HI DTM. STILL GOT SOUR GRAPES FROM THAT FIRST NEWBIE, I SEE.

1. Where you called out that VV was both telling the truth but at the same time dismissed both Meta arguments because VV's play style was different (e.g. you said that it was getting sloppier in comparison to the other games that VV punted).

Can you link these games and show how? . I don't care if we know VV is town, but I want to know WHY you came to the conclusion that stated that VV is acting as town meta but is different enough to be scummy even though you didn't take the time to consider it.

Um, ok, this needs to be responded to line by line.

"Where you called out that VV was both telling the truth" - when did I say VV was telling the truth?
"but at the same time dismissed both Meta arguments because VV's play style was different" - I didn't dismiss a meta argument, I rebutted it with counter-analysis.
"e.g. you said that it was getting sloppier in comparison to the other games that VV punted)." - I did talk about sloppiness a bit, but the important part of the argument related to VV's interactions with Fate.
"Can you link these games and show how?" - No. I really do not feel like going back and combing games to discuss the meta of a dead player, especially since I was talking about his general playstyle and interactions with other players, not this one specific thing he does (e.g., it's not like I can just whip out a single post and be like "LOOK, VV DOES THIS HERE)."
"but I want to know WHY you came to the conclusion that stated that VV is acting as town meta" where do I say VV is acting as town?
"but is different enough to be scummy even though you didn't take the time to consider it" = What am I not considering?

AGM also: D1, even though knowing that Rhino was scum, did you think he was town at all? Using only knowledge from D1 around the time of the link post above.

I had no opinion of Rhino at that time.

[DTMaster]

@Work
1.UK: No my passive is based on a kill only. If I'm lynched it works normally. If I am killed at night then it's 2 night phases. It's slightly modified (I think to what I know of the role) since it's only

night action based

rather then

kill based

2. There is no reason why Almaster is better then Eli to my current read (as I haven't reread Almaster/Eli in full detail). I do however find a few things that tick me off to point towards Almaster-scum which is justified for me to investigate. There's no reason for me not to question him.

@Almaster
My break is 5 minutes boo, so i'll Post my line by line analysis later today/tomorrow. However to your point on Rhino

Why was it important for M_O to deconstruct VV when he was making a case on Rhino?

I don't find anything pro-town in these lines of arguments because there's no reason why M_O should need to deconstruct VV during that wagon period.

A townie would be more likely to go: Why is Rhino scum? Which M_O gave some reasons to. Since the main argument was the scum to post ratio was high in Rhino I would also expect a townie to go: Can you show this since this statement was vauge.

A scum player is more likely to do what you did and say: Why not VV over Rhino, why DERAIL THE MAIN WAGON? M_O's case on Rhino had no baring on VV's status. There's no reason why you needed to attack M_O for not deconstructing the VV wagon since he was dealing with Rhino.

Thus I assumed that you felt that Rhino was town since you were attacking M_O's reasoning. You did call him scummy and his arguments scummy. I find it odd that you went through 2 pages of arguments with M_O over a null read. That to me is suspicious.

If you're telling me that since I don't think Almaster is better then Eli that I should wagon it up with you then no, I won't unless I agree with you. I have my own cases that I want to run, you do your thing. Ka pieche?

[DTMaster]

TLDR: Your actions to attack MO directly and defend Rhino indirectly doesn't match with that statement that you felt Rhino was null.

[UncertainKitten]

1. That's actually marginally better, though still not great. Basically it encourages you to play like a jester.

2. Fair enough, was curious what made the difference.

Um...I have no idea who this is to:

If you're telling me that since I don't think Almaster is better then Eli that I should wagon it up with you then no, I won't unless I agree with you. I have my own cases that I want to run, you do your thing. Ka pieche?

[DTMaster]

Oopsies. UK that was ment for you. Though the role also has the normal win condition so it's worse then playing like a jester. I'd rather play normally and let what ever happens, happen.

It is nessessary though that I die 2 phases before predicted lylo.

When I'm not at work you'll see more objectified responses :3

[UncertainKitten]

And, no, I wasn't saying that, I was more curious about your choice, to get insight into your alignment. You're already doing a fuckton better than PZ.

[magnus_orion]

Considering DT claimed a role that basically NEEDS to die at some point, I think its a fair bet that DT is town.
Vezok's role is confirmable in terms of ability. I'm not sure how likely it is that there'd be a neighborizor power for scum, but DT makes a good point in that vezok's soft claim about keeping fate alive matches up with his claim.
Then again, there's no reason not to soft claim with that kind of ability as scum. *shrug*
I still want reads from vezok.

@DT: I'm not sure I understand where you're coming from with the Jahudo and Rhinox interaction, could you explain that better please?

Elli is looking like a good way to go. Elli doesn't talk much normally, however, so.... I'd kinda like to see more from Elli before choosing whether to jump on him.

[DTMaster]

1. I went through Vi's posts to see if anything points to potential gold to keep a float. Other then similar conclusions about M_O/Rhino i'd still like Almaster to answer Vi's post here:

First sentence - The comparison here is WITH VASUDEVA. I think it has been established that m_o looks sketchy, but why him over the person you were previously gung-ho for?

I don't know. I admit, I have not actually compared the cases side by side. I am just voting for magnus because he has been more scummy more recently. I SHOULD do a comparative analysis, but that will come later. Right now, I am more interested in seeing where this goes and giving myself more stuff to compare with.

This isn't a math question, no comparative analysis necessary. There were lots of people on VasudeVa (who you say is STILL hyperscummy) and he was getting lynched in 48 hours on my guarantee. You switched off of THAT GUY... why.

Edited of course since the second question didn't apply. I realized that I had the same thinking process about Vi's analysis on AGM. Especially with the whole chain of inherit defense of Rhino with a M_O attack that required him to compare VV and Rhino, this relates with the above Objectionfied (I think that the tunes code isn't working but what evs)

2. Initially it took me a while but Gammagooey troubled me because it was hard to get a read off him at first. I required an Iso read. Then I saw lots of hard stances. I like this. There are clear motives and attacks which to me is a good thing. Plus a hint of critical thinking (eg. his reply to me and his stance on M_O relating his content/stances compared to other players). Objectionified

3. Almaster's response line by line (that I missed)

a. VV Truth telling? OMG. I present to you this quote in objectionfied form This is where you validated VV's self meta in response to VV's accusation that you knew his game play. Thus by validating the self meta, you agree that VV has this history of anti-town play.

b. In regards to hiding from Fate: I can see it. I find your lack of paranoia to be odd because VV did have this history. You were bitten twice by VV's play in the games you mentioned. This is the third time. I find it odd that you are punishing him for the same way, using probably simillar arguments to those games that VV dug his own graves, for the third time.

If you're scum looking for that easy case, sure I'd see it. But after 3 times being burned as town, I'd expect you to sit down and think about whether this case would bite you in the arse. When you validated VV's self meta, you opened this Pandora's box of "what if questions".

c. Remember this quote that I objectionified. Why didn't you verify your reads? Are you that lazy? Or do you want to make a fake argument that I can't check up on? I'll wiki this and see what I can dig up but your inherit laziness to link these games when asked about when you clearly made a meta argument is really bad.

I wasn't looking for you to defend your stance on VV when I asked you to meta link. I was looking what your response was. I'd say you failed my little scum test because my hypothesis was:

As a town's person who made the above meta argument, it would be easy for him to link to the games in question. Since you know where these games are, you are able to make these arguments thus would be willing to link them. By linking the game, you Almaster, is showing actual determination to scum hunt. Thus: You are trying to find scum in this game and you're actually doing something.

As a scum's person you'd show reluctance to find these games even though you made meta arguments. Thus you gain scum points either through laziness or showing signs that you were throwing arguments to keep the VV fires going.

I'm judging you not on your actual conclusions here, I'm trying to see if you're putting effort in these cases (aka I'm looking to see if you're actually doing what you say). So far you don't seem to be. Reading between the lines is something that I've been improving on :p.

c. You validated VV's meta thus you validate that VV's self meta argument is town. It's a conclusion that's implied when you agreed that: "Yes VV does cause the town to shoot itself in the foot". Even though you made it fit into a "this could also be scum" argument, the inherit contrast is there to make your point.

You didn't say it directly, but it wasn't necessary.

d. You didn't consider anti-town VV (stated above) despite your previous history with VV. Why didn't you throw that on the table? (See a again)

[DTMaster]

@M_O
It's the whole haziness that Rhino did when he agreed Vezok is scum, then called Jahudo scum and Vezok scum even though Jahudo is the guy who started to spear head the Vezok case at the start. It's weird since Rhino agreed with Jahudo and did a 180. Thus the interactions are weird and can be interpreted as distancing or possibly scum trying to get things to stick.

It confuses me too, so I need to mull it over and do some Jahudo rereads to help it out. There could be something there. It's also a self note for me to see to look into further.

[DTMaster]

Ihmo, you guys should know that I did a double soft claim obvs. :p

[magnus_orion]

@DT: are you reading all this from iso? Did you read the game proper? Cause there was significant space between Rhino's 180 on Jahudo. Are you taking that into consideration?
Personally, what I find weird is that Rhinox's case on Jahudo seems to some degree stronger than his case on UK, but he chooses to push the UK case instead, and weakens the Jahudo case he makes with meta.

[SpyreX]

Grrrr.

Unvote, Vote: DTM

Keep in mind I think he's telling the truth.
I'm also not willing to risk a double night.

(I also lean towards believing vezok but its hard and it hurts all over)