Mini 1091 Mafia Mania -- Game Over

[Beefster]

/confirm

[Beefster]

VOTE: boberz
You seem to be reacting to nothing. Hiraki's comments looked pretty joking. Why so overdefensive?

[Beefster]

Beefster surely if anything I was overattacking? How can I be overdefensive in attacking someone?
Fail accusation.

Fail defense. You make a decent point, yet you kinda missed my point and ended up digging yourself into a hole.

[Beefster]

Beefster surely if anything I was overattacking? How can I be overdefensive in attacking someone?
Fail accusation.

Fail defense. You make a decent point, yet you kinda missed my point and ended up digging yourself into a hole.

How so? is overattacking a scumtell for me now. In fact you have seen my meta so you know it is not.

Yeah... One game. Not really a valid argument. (not to mention it was a newbie game, and stuff could've changed since then)

You were overdefensive in claiming that you were overattacking rather than overdefending. In that sense you dug your hole deeper. I'm also not liking the way you've reacted to the votes on you. You have something to lose, don't you?

Anyhting else to add beefster, your points have been a little shallow so far. (It neednt have to be about me I just mean in general.)

I'm working on getting focus. I'm in theme and bastard games right now, so I'm trying to get back into the serious mafia mood. It's also a bit nervewracking when 2+ pages appear overnight- as an argument between 3 players. (Although I've seen much worse...)

[Beefster]

Saying someone is overdefensive when they clearly are not is not a case. What didn't you like about his reaction to votes on him?

Chainsaw defense, more or less.

[Beefster]

If you think I'm scummy, why did you change targets back to Hiraki?

[Beefster]

Wait! Just quickly checking in right now, but Beefster, are you saying Boberz was overdefensive due to his chainsaw defense on Moose's wagon?

Actually it was in regards to his vote on Hiraki on the first page. To be honest, I haven't really read pages 2 and 3.

[Beefster]

also guys, I am going to try and change my play for this game. I am getting better and better at this game and I would like to try to improve my always reading scummy style. I will more than likely go back to my old ways lol. But yeah, just don' t think I am scummy cuz I am not acting as scummy as usuall LOL.

So yeah

Cool story bro. This just gave me the wrong feeling.

This is not a random vote.

Vote: Moos200x

For already having a wall of scummy, irrelevant information up, claiming you'll be acting less scummy than usual.

Good. We agree.

/confirm

Thanks for reading the 100-page long thread. Not that you can't confirm after votes are placed down, but you didn't vote either. Quite a shame, really.

Mariyta: doesn't this look like a joke?

[Beefster]

Oh and yet again

everyone in the fucking game

is coaching moose on how to be town. Clearly not a good target for a lynch today, people.

Really? Strange observation. Looks a bit like you're trying to push something off.

[Beefster]

I dont like the substrike wagon.

Why not? Be specific here.

[Beefster]

I'll vote Beefster, I'd just rather vote you right now, Dekes. Funny how that post comes after that vote. Active lurking? Guess we'll find out.

Anyways, onto the hot topic of the day: Beefster. Scummy? Yes. Scummiest? No.

Then why vote me? Shouldn't you be voting your top scumpick?

Also, Dekes, why or how would you assume there's a vigilante in the game? Calling for someone to be vigged on d1 of a mini normal game strikes me as an extremely odd play. That seems highly suspicious to me. I still have yet to have a Vig in any mini game I've either read or played, but if someone provides me a link I'll be more apt to buy this.

Do you not understand what a hypothetical statement is?

I get why people are saying Moos might not be scum, if ya'll have played with him before, but with how blatantly anti-town he's being, are you all serious about keeping him around til lylo to find out? Really? LordChronos is a close second for me behind Moos. I'd be down for either of them today.

Looks like a scum slip. Subtly pushing for a lynch of non-scum?

FoS: Substrike

until I see the votecount.

[Beefster]

I fucking hate being a powerrole. When your blue it doesn't matter but when your a fucking PR and get lynch it destroys town. GG town. If you wanna lynch me,lynch me. Just know I will be a huge mother fucking help come LYLO. HUGE MOTHER FUCKING HELP. HUGE.

what is this i dont even.

[Beefster]

Do you not see the second half of that sentence where I blatently say that you are not my top scum pick? "Scummiest? No."

I misread that. My bad.

Alternative: I'm acknowledging that I can see why everyone's saying panicing townie and then pushing for a scum lynch. I'm saying that at worst, we get rid of an anti-town player. Why is this a problem?

Because you only said he was anti town and made no mention of his actual scumminess.

Honestly, all three of these seem like you're trying to make problems out of thin air. You're reaching at best, scummy at worst. Just to clarify, though, still not scummiest. In case there was/is any confusion for the next time.

I'm approaching it with a questioning attitude. If I push a liar hard enough, he will eventually blatantly contradict himself.

[Beefster]

Just let me do my thing for one night and if I am alive you lynch me fast. No argument from me.

Cut the crap. What are you hiding?

[Beefster]

moose: please fully claim, your non-specific power role claim doesn't really help anyone right now, one of the main reason I can think to not fully claim is that you haven't got a decent lie; if you are telling the truth about your PR it isn't a good look, you already look bad enough from claiming when you probably shouldn't have.

There's no need for him to claim at this point. He's softclaimed a power role and that's enough. I just want him to stop his "I hate having a power role" crap. If he hates it so bad, why doesn't he replace out instead of screwing with the game?

I've noticed some players seem to want moose dead as a policy lynch; I don't think this'd be a very good idea, firstly I don't think he is as malicious as the targets of policy lynches tend to have to be and is not as big a threat to the town (he is, I think, also capable of much better play than currently shown), secondly I don't think we would gain nearly as much information from a moose lynch than we would from some other lynches, more on this later. (Also there is the whole power role claim, but I'm going to wait for more to go on here)

This reads to me as buddying. Also, why do you care so much that he claims? You don't think he's scummy; there is no good reason for him to claim.

Some things made Hiraki look fairly anti-town as I read through the thread: the weird opinions expressed on lots of pretty pointless seeming, often theoretical, bits of the game (RVS, pressure, FoS), the relative lack of cohesive cases against players considering his expression of so many strong opinions on presently irrelevant topics, and the constant introduction of relativity into his posts ("that might be true for you, but it isn't true for me"; generally your use of this pretty silly, a lot less of these things are as relative as you seem to think they are). Would be interested to know if other players consider this more poor town play or scummy play, I'm having a hard time working out.

This looks like an excuse to fencesit for a while. What do

you

think?

I'm liking the beefster wagon at the moment, I think I'll leave my predecessor's vote there for now. The way he targeted boberz really rubbed me the wrong way, don't think he has contributed much to the town, and there are some interesting relationship between beefster and some other players that I've noticed which could be very revealing depending on how he flips, will look into in these (and hopefully other) relationships in more detail after a nice sleep, I feel thats an aspect that hasn't been looked into as much this game.

Are there any other accusations you'd like to bring to the table?

VOTE: brokenscraps

BTW: I'm done warming up. I can be serious now.

[Beefster]

All the stuff you said about hiraki was scummy.

Something is off with the beefster wagon, cant fathom itreally. I need to reread the game already.

Could it be that you realized I'm town?

[Beefster]

There's no need for him to claim at this point. He's softclaimed a power role and that's enough. I just want him to stop his "I hate having a power role" crap. If he hates it so bad, why doesn't he replace out instead of screwing with the game?

This reads to me as buddying. Also, why do you care so much that he claims? You don't think he's scummy; there is no good reason for him to claim.

I'm just going to really hope moose isn't a vanilla townie making a fakeclaim or that he isn't exaggerating his PR's significance, as I read in this thread that he showed regret for doing this in another game.

If he is really a town power role the scum already know that he isn't a scum player, that he is the only claimed power role and that his power role is apparently very useful to the town. The exact details of his power aren't too important, already they know he would be a good target for killing off.

If he is scum making a fakeclaim, however, then we are losing a lot of potentially useful information that denies us the opportunity to scrutinize and test his claims. Being able to just claim PR makes it too easy for scum.

So if he is town we won't lose anything from a full claim, and if he is scum his claim will be much easier to check, so I think that now that a soft claim has been made there is good reason for a full one.

Nice WIFOM.
If he has a powerrole, like he's softclaimed, it would be worse. He'll just get nightkilled.

You've changed your mind very quickly as well:

Just let me do my thing for one night and if I am alive you lynch me fast. No argument from me.

Cut the crap. What are you hiding?

Right here you seem to call for more claiming from moose. Whatever opinions suits the lynch you're looking for, eh?

It does look like that. It was a rhetorical question I used to emphasize cutting the crap.

This looks like an excuse to fencesit for a while. What do

you

think?

Fair enough. It comes off to me much more as always playing that way both judging from a quick glance at his previous games and the general read I get of his motivations this game, so more as anti-town than scummy. Now using previous bad play to justify current bad play creates a general site meta of encouraging bad play, so I don't think it's good to use this to clear him, and if boberz and anyone else in favor of a Hiraki lynch can provide a stronger case (mainly who do you think his scum partners are?) then I would be paying much more attention.

Your argument looks awfully inconclusive. How 'bout a one word answer? (anti-town?, scummy?, neutral?)

Are there any other accusations you'd like to bring to the table?

While reading the thread it seemed like there was some time of connection between you and Mariyta, I would see this as a possible scum team.

I found Mariyta's vote on boberz fairly odd. Same post she seems to want to put a vote on moose but doesn't because that would put him at l-2 (it would actually put him at l-3, but that is neither here nor there); I don't think a quick lynch was a reasonable threat here, and if you really thought he was the scummiest why wouldn't you want to vote him? Later in the game you would write:

Why should I vote the person I feel is the lesser scum just because he has the wagon?

Why should you vote for someone you consider the lesser scum just because they don't have a wagon? Trying to get votes on somebody else would only distract from moose. The overreacting charge seems a very weak reason for voting for boberz here.

I'm not seeing how this proves your argument.

@beefster: mind outlining the case against me?

-You asked for an unnecessary full claim.
-Possible buddying with moose, which is strange considering you want him to claim.
-fence sitting
-WIFOM

[Beefster]

Unvote; Vote: Beefster

Yep, I know I said Beefster was town. But that was based on the fact that Substrike (one of my suspect) had Lord Chronos (my other suspect), Beefster and moose as suspects and yet decided to avoid the Beefster wagon (where LC was on) and LC and instead went moose - me - moose. But now that brokenscraps has somehwat redeemed LC, it seems that LC was rather disinterested in the game than scummily lurking. So that voids my theory of Substrike avoiding a wagon where his partner is on if brokenscraps is town.

Beefster's discrepancy between saying "moose has to fullclaim now" and "there's no point for moose to claim" within two posts is just too hard to overlook. I'll look into Beefster later for more, but the vote seems good for now.

I said "What are you hiding?" not "CLAIM PLZ". It was a rhetorical question.

Also, I'm sick at looking at the moose wagon. Too bad a Substrike wagon wouldn't liff off. With the only person softclaiming moose has painted a bull's eye on his back anyway, and even if not, dude said, he could prove himself tomorrow. So what exactly is there to gain if we lynch him today?

Absolutely nothing. Chances are the mafia will kill him anyway.

[Beefster]

Also @Dekes, your reason behind voting me is kinda convoluted. Care to use logic?

[Beefster]

Gotta catch up later, on skim two things. Why does Beefster assume scum will automatically nk moose? A similar situation has happened before personally and it was devastating for the town.

Isn't that kind of the idea? The mafia will do the action worst for the town, because it's best for them. It's just how they roll.

Moose is not playing to his to his town meta, he has done NOTHING this whole game.

So he's lurking. Big deal. It's Christmas time. I wouldn't be surprised if everyone got prodded by New Year.

[Beefster]

@broken: Thanks for being concise. I really hate it when people dance around the question. I prefer the format <Answer>- <Reason>.

Lurking isn't bad on its own. It's only when you lurk for 3 days, post some fluff, then lurk some more. That's bad. But lurklurklurkCONTENTlurklurklurk is okay. Obviously not preferable, but rarely deserving of a vote.
@Mariyta: some people are REALLY busy even a week before Christmas. How isn't that a legitimate excuse to lurk? (I'm using 'excuse' a bit loosely here)

[Beefster]

I said "What are you hiding?" not "CLAIM PLZ". It was a rhetorical question.

Bullshit.
What answer would you expect from him but an elaboration on his softclaim?

None, because it was a rhetorical question.

- I don't like how your reason your suspicions in wiki scumtells like "overdefensiveness" and "chainsaw defense" who are either outdated, no scumtells in the first place or don't even apply here. An easy way for scum to feign scumhunting attempts.

Well excuse me for not using the right terminology. I suck at explaining myself.

- I don't like how you stay vague with your attacks, but you request others to be specific on several occasions. Double standards anyone?

I hate finding quotes. I'm far too lazy.

- I don't like how you expressed suspicion towards Substrike, yet you didn't vote him because you wanted to wait for a votecount. Fair enough. But instead of voting him after the next votecount, you pick on brokenscraps who had just made more or less a case on you. You add some more common wiki tells to your reasoning (buddying, fencesitting) and ignore Substrike. A quick way to attack your buddy and then deflect onto another target?

I forgot. And then brokenscraps caught my attention, looking more scummy.

[Beefster]

Also note that my votes near the beginning really don't mean much.

[Beefster]

moos

e

, calm down. If you are the vig, don't waste your kill on someone you don't like. It's horrible for the rest of us. If you are so pissed off, it would be best if you replaced out.

[Beefster]

It doesn't, he's gotta work for it.

@Lateralus
Sure why not... seeing as were going to need moose alive i'll UNVOTE: moose200x... My opinon on who later...

So you believe his claim, but the only reason you're unvoting is to keep him around? Strange.

[Beefster]

Beefster seems to skim posts more than read them, also too lazy to pull out quotes, also a good gut feeling...

Skimming is usually a nulltell.

[Beefster]

It doesn't, he's gotta work for it.

@Lateralus
Sure why not... seeing as were going to need moose alive i'll UNVOTE: moose200x... My opinon on who later...

So you believe his claim, but the only reason you're unvoting is to keep him around? Strange.

Beefster I didn't say that, antb did.

Weird. Something must've happened with the quote tool.

[Beefster]

Also, I'm not keeping Moose around for long, I'm going with substrikes plan of using moose to double lynch, pending results, lynch him now or later...

Why would you be in favor of a "double lynch"?
And if you believe the claim that he is the vig, why would you want to lynch him later? Shouldn't we keep him around as long as possible if he's a town powerrole?

VOTE: AntB
This is a horrible inconsistency.

[Beefster]

@boberz
If your so set on lynching werewolf why are you so bothered about us letting moose live? also because he's targeting you I would think you would want him out of your way..

@Beefster
He claimed one shot. This is why you read and not skim. Also, the quote was my bad.

Except for the part that he would be confirmed town at that point.

[Beefster]

we cant let you through to lylo anyway.

I don't see why you get to decide. I've been in lylo a few times and NEVER picked wrong as town.

Not helpful. You could be wrong at any time.

[Beefster]

Ugh. Policy lynches. You could grow some balls ans see what happens

[Beefster]

VOTE: moose200x

I feel like a yo-yo... this time however its set in stone. 6 days left and we need a lynch.

Why the rush? 6 days is plenty of time.

[Beefster]

I

really

don't like the moose wagon. I can somewhat understand the wagon on me. Do keep in mind that my early votes generally don't mean much.

MOAR VOTES ON ANTB!

[Beefster]

I am not nrmally a policy lyncher. I have never been on a policy lynch. But the werewolf wagon doesnt look like it is happening, so it is him or you. I prefer him, if only because I get on with you in a strange way.

It's never a good time to start. I don't like policy lynches in games this small. It's already 3 mislynches to loss. There's no good reason to bring that down to 2 on purpose. Face it, policy lynches are just as useful as random lynches.

[Beefster]

boberz, why are you so insistent on one of those 2 choices. WE HAVE 5 DAYS! And we MIGHT get a deadline extension.

[Beefster]

I'm seeing AntB, boberz, and Substrike as the scumteam.

[Beefster]

I would be willing to switch to werewolf. It's better than a moose lynch. I would still vastly prefer an AntB lynch.

[Beefster]

boberz: I don't like your attitude. Christmas is not the deadline. It seems to me like you're trying to push a mislynch.

@Beefster
You think i'm scum based on a perceived inconsistency because you read and not skim....

Want to elaborate?

No. I think you're scum because you believe moose's claim- as you want to use him to vig/double lynch, yet you want to lynch moose later/at some point. You can't do both. You either doubt the claim and lynch, or you believe him and use his powers to our advantage.

Moose: I wouldn't be entirely against a boberz lynch/vig if that's what you REALLY want to do. I'm fairly confident that he is scum, along with AntB and Substrike.

[Beefster]

@L22: What is your opinion on boberz? I understand you think he's town, but why?

Beefster swinging this onto me of all of a sudden is scummy btw everyone.

How so?

unvote

VOTE: boberz
There. Now it's official.

I will not change my vote until tomorrow night- I'll be V/LA from Christmas to New Year's Eve.

[Beefster]

EBWOP: I will not change my vote

to werewolf

until tomorrow night.

[Beefster]

Also:

Bad

play is a nulltell. I've seen just as many town players with poor play as scum players with poor play.

Scummy

play, though, is a whole different story.

AntB and boberz are scummy. moose is a bad player. Huge difference.

[Beefster]

Show me where I actually state in plain english that I buy the Moose Vig Claim. I say that using moose to secure a double lynch is a good idea and if he is as he claims he would be fine, if not he would be quickly outed. I don't want him hanging around by LyLo because so far, he has been of little if any use to town so I believe he would help the mafia win in a LyLo situation.

You can't expect a double lynch unless you believe his claim. You can't doubt the claim and believe it at the same time. You're trying to please everyone, but blatantly contradicting yourself in the process. Major scum points.

You never said you believed him in plain English,

but you implied it by other things you said.

I don't need to prove your actions to make my point. Nice panic defense.

In response to my arguments, you turn your vote back on me. OMGUS isn't usually a scumtell, but in this case, I think it is; You seem to be using it as a panic defense.

And the fact that you totally avoided the topic of werewolf really throws up some red flags. Perhaps a werewolf lynch wouldn't be that bad...

unvote

VOTE: AntB
until tonight... Just in case this gains momentum.

I think I've caught scum.

[Beefster]

Keep in mind that I would be just as happy to lynch boberz as AntB. Werewolf would be my last resort.

[Beefster]

Maritya this is not a quick lynch. And I will swap the wagon where I like when I like to try and find the bestcompromise lynch. Beefster, AndB nor me is getting lynched today so leave it for tomorrow.

A "compromise" lynch is not good. How about a scum lynch. We still have time. While a lot of us will be going V/LA, that doesn't mean we should throw away all thought toward a good lynch.

I do not think AntB is the townies person alive but we cant just do this to a random. We need to work towards a lynch now.

Which is what we're doing. Quit insisting that we must lynch ASAP.

Please state your werewolf case.

[Beefster]

I do not think AntB is the townies person alive but we cant just do this to a random.

What the heck does this trainwreck mean? And it isn't random. Have you even read my case?

[Beefster]

I did a quick and dirty ISO. I saw no case on werewolf. A saw a couple of posts about him, yet strangely you weren't voting him at that time. (You were telling people to vote him) Weird.

AntB "perform a scumhunt". Scumpoints. Major ones.

Uh huh. You think he's scummy, but you haven't really talked about him since then.

What is your opinion on AntB?

...

You're right. The AntB wagon isn't happening...

unvote

VOTE: boberz
Yours is.

Sorry for the ambivalence. I think they're both scum, and I couldn't decide which one to get rid of first.

[Beefster]

Any reasons?

[Beefster]

@boberz: why did you suddenly shift your vote from hiraki to moose in the beginning of the day?
I also noticed that you attack players for playing badly more than for being scummy. Seems like a nice way to fake scumhunting.

And don't be pulling a Ythan here. Your case is spread out so much and completely unclear that I think you need to summarize your case. It seems to me like you're trying to avoid the embarrassment of having a fail case.

[Beefster]

So you think there's a vig, but it's not moose? This is an open game. How can you be so sure that he isn't?

Would you mind actually hunting scum instead of picking targets?
Also state your case on me.

@boberz: NONE of the points you have on Hiraki are scumtells IMO. Attacking over a RANDOM VOTE and talking about theory? Your case is invalid.

[Beefster]

Voting randomly when you have two suspects is scummy.

Not at the beginning of the day it isn't.

Dragging game into theory is scummy when done deliberately (part of the reason I got lynched in our game together if you remember)

How so?

Misrepping is a greyarea scummywise, I am happy for you to not accept it. Obviously it is antitown though.

Agreed.

Yday you promised to vote him today if I remember correctly, will you?

I'm a man of my word. As much as I'd rather go with something else, I will vote him before I go to bed, just in case your wagon goes somewhere by then.

[Beefster]

Because it was a half-joking random vote.

[Beefster]

Beefster, take a step back. If I turned round now and randomly voted for myself. You would think it scummy I hope. If I put the phrase 'lol' afterwards it does not excuse it. Same for this. It is not excusable, he had two suspicions and apparently some town reads (which I still think was bollocks he made up when tested).

If you did that right now, I'd be confused, yes. But the Hiraki situation was different. It was his first (or was it second?) post. It was early in the game. The meaning of a vote approaches 0 as you approach the beginning of the day.

That merely begun the wagon that I believe made hiraki fall apart, I cannot find anything specifically but I believe the whole back and forth between he and I was not townies bickering.

Why? (and also, it could be that you're scum and he's town. You can't really tell for sure.)

[Beefster]

@rat: I really don't like your post. We'll discuss more later.

*sigh*

The boberz wagon isn't going anywhere, it seems.

I will stick to my word and...

unvote

VOTE: werewolf

[Beefster]

Shoot boberz or AntB. That is all.

[Beefster]

I'm a vanilla townie. Good Job. lynch boberz. GOOO TOWN!!!!!