Mini 1091 Mafia Mania -- Game Over

[Mariyta]

I'm still alive, and as I mentioned, internet access has become limited. I should have more time tomorrow and I will give a detailed read/post then. From skimming, I think moose is terribad townie.

[boberz]

After I looked at his past games, I don't think he is scum.

This is reffering to moose. Why is this so, surely at most you know he is capable of doing this as town. Have you seen him failing to do similar things as scum?
(Who else has played with moose? I have.)

For the record, I am neither convinced Hiraki's answers regarding the random vote he made after giving suspicions are suitable, nor do I believe he believes them either.

Considering there was no question, and it was a bland statement on my play, that is quite the misrepresentation...

Mistake rather than misrep. However you did rather avoid the point. You failed to adequately respond to my attack.

But that's not the point.

But it is and was from the very moment several picked up on it.

It is invalid because clearing someone of being town by meta is horrible.

I did no such thing. I didnt even stop attacking him.

is absolutely nothing about FoS in this thread that I have said.

FoS' are worthless in any case

THis was the theory element of what you said. Hiraki made more than one reference to FOSs in iso post 4.

You're the one who disputed my random vote to be scummy.

Exactly, that is not theory. Going into when RVS should end in a broad way as you did is not game relevant.

It doesn't really work that well.

The thread has proved that to be absolute crap. It is evident that both of you have felt pressured, admittedly you dealt with it infinitely better than moose.

I doubt that was Bob's reaction though.

I found it hilarious. You cant afford to get annoyed with people so if you feel they are losing control, acting off emotion or trolling then you know you are winning the argument.

Moose would need to call it a mislynch if he knew he was town, no?

Not really he could call it a lynch without adding mislynch to it. Considering how loose moose has been with claiming scum elsewhere I see little reason why he should feel the need to be allignment specific here. It just felt awkward I think.

Post #22 (Hiraki): What??? If you believe in that why would you vote for some random person instead? Why would you vote in all when in our last game you were so adamant against doing so early on?

I love how this was the first thing you picked up upon.

boberz is overreacting

Just found this thanks to lateralus. lol

If you think moose should have more votes why aren't you voting him?

As I said in the post I genuinely thought the place my vote was at was the right place for me to be applying pressure as well. I felt the moose wagon was getting credit (rigthly so) only later did I join it myself.

Who does {LordChronos; Mariyta; LordChronos; Dekes} think is scum and why. Seriously… who the hell are you guys.

I agree, I like your entry later.

Hiraki feels weird but gonna hold off for now

Why? What was it about the hiraki case that didnt take off, I have been pushing it hard but nobody seemed to like the look of it. The lack of wagon here makes me even moire suspicious of hiraki.

Boberz, can you explain why we would need a 'distraction'? What's wrong with discussing Moose200x's behaviour?

Nothing wrong, but it is becomming the sole focus. we need more than one line of enquiry at a time. This will allow us to involve more people and havea more broad undertanding of people's positions on a variety of people. I am more talking to people not actively pushing moose atm.

Boberz, can you explain why we would need a 'distraction'? What's wrong with discussing Moose200x's behaviour?

I dont really accept the idea of 'tells' in the traditional sense but this in context I saw as very scummy. I saw no town motivation and it felt out of place and wrong.

for his response to boberz answer to Beefster's vote.

What was scummy about it, I dont like people who adopt popular views without justifying them. IGMEOY

People can manipulate their playstyles knowing their meta will be looked at.

I am not an avid user of meta. But this is a fallacy; the whole point of meta is that it helps you find what they do unconciously. A player breaking meta is affecting all his other games both now and in future, they are unlikely to do this for the sake of confusing you on one issue in one game. How many times have you done something in one game purely to shape your meta, not many is my bet.

I'm working on getting focus. I'm in theme and bastard games right now, so I'm trying to get back into the serious mafia mood. It's also a bit nervewracking when 2+ pages appear overnight- as an argument between 3 players. (Although I've seen much worse...)

What is the point in this statement? I asked you for something to add, not a sob story about some bastard mod.

So substrike- Just to clarify right now. Do you think I am scum or do you think I am just anti-town?

Your talking about yourself again moose! Naughty boy.

Boberz- I am not mad your tunneling me becuase i feel like a victim. I am mad because you are allowing scum to bandwagon and hide on an easy mislynch. Scum will just say "lol he acted scummy lol" and that's that. You are letting scum off easy by tunneling me.

I am not tunnelling you, that is abundantly clear to everybody. And you are still talking about yourself. Are you that selfobsessed.

First off, I explained it quite clearly in the post. Call it it an FoS if you want. I was not ready to vote either of the two suspects, therefore, I voted randomly.

We hear you, we just think it is scummy and bollocks. Because it implies random votes are better than reasoned votes. It implies random wagons have more value than real wagons. It implies you are scared to be held to account for your views. We understand your point we just think it is bollocks.

First off, I explained it quite clearly in the post. Call it it an FoS if you want. I was not ready to vote either of the two suspects, therefore, I voted randomly.

At this point you expose severe newbishness. Atleast we know your town reads were crap and sharing them is fine by me.

2. I'm calling for his lynch now, because before I just wanted pressure. Now he's in lynch territory. In terms of what turned me, I wasn't 100% sure with that first /confirm post. He's assumed an extremely poor position since then and it's time to get some rope.

This feels weak. Explain what has changed between calling for him to be wagonned and calling for him to be lynched.

---

I am beginning to sense this moose stuff is all a bit too easy.

unvote

vote hiraki

I am not happy that the wagon picked up nobody without many real dissentors. Too few people were delaying a decision on it and stuff. (watch them delay again or suddenly get town reads now scared I caught connections)

[Substrike22]

Boberz, read moos through when I was comfortable asking for pressure, then read him through when I called for his lynch. He went from bad, to worse. Under pressure he was freaking out (which is a null), but also started behaving in an extremely anti-town fashion. You yourself said that claiming scum is never a pro-town move. So what exactly is it that you want me to explain, past that? Dude's scum.

[boberz]

Hmm, for some reason I am not convinced. Call it gut if you want, but it is different to that.

[Dekes]

Fuck me. Procrastinating and busy schedule sucks, sorry all. Heading out to a party now. You'll have to wait one more day for my post, but I'll make that count.

[AntB]

I'm interested in peoples reads on Moose200x.
He's made no pro-town posts, hes made an accusation saying basically trying to look protown means your scum and roleclaimed scum, do you think its a joke or genuine or are you not sure about it?

[Lateralus22]

Why? What was it about the hiraki case that didnt take off, I have been pushing it hard but nobody seemed to like the look of it. The lack of wagon here makes me even moire suspicious of hiraki.

Personal experience makes me feel uneasy, in a recent game I spent majority of my time attacking him and assuming he was scum for his early play so I doubt my ability atm to evaluate his play well.

@AntB:

moose is still meh. Don't think his OMGUS and claiming scum is actually scummy. It's a very natural reaction

What do you AntB and Beefster think about Hiraki?

Mod: Could we have a vote count?

[AntB]

Having town-reads so early on set alarm bells ringing straight away, the fact he's only just elaborated on them and with them being so MINOR and even WRONG makes me think there's something else going on. He dissects my attack on moose while himself maintaining a vote for him. There is an air of scum but nothing to cause concern as of yet.

[Lateralus22]

...the fact he's only just elaborated on them and with them being so MINOR and even WRONG makes me think there's something else going on.

Can you elaborate on this, why is it strange for it to be minor and why do you think his reasoning is wrong? Do you have a scum read on those town reads he presented?

He dissects my attack on moose while himself maintaining a vote for him

Totally missed out on this, can you link to it? Why do you feel attacking your case on yet keeping his vote would not be a cause of concern?

[Nobody Special]

Votecount 1.03

moose200x - 4 - Substrike22, LordChronos, Hiraki, AntB
boberz - 2 - Mariyta, Beefster
AntB - 1 - Ant_to_the_max
Ant_to_the_max - 1 - Mr Wright
Beefster - 1 - Lateralus22
Hiraki - 1 - boberz
Mariyta - 1 - Dekes

Not Voting: moose200x

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline: December 28

V/LA: boberz through Sunday December 12

Shameless Self-Promotion Dept.: If you know of anyone that might be willing to replace into a Large Normal or a Mini Theme, see my sig. Thanks!

[Beefster]

Saying someone is overdefensive when they clearly are not is not a case. What didn't you like about his reaction to votes on him?

Chainsaw defense, more or less.

[boberz]

Beefster it is not a chaisaw defence because I had already made the same defence myself. People are allowed to attack you if you are chatting bollocks.

Anyway even the guy who created the chainsaw defence concedes it cannot be used untill you know one of the alignments.

[Beefster]

If you think I'm scummy, why did you change targets back to Hiraki?

[boberz]

When did I say you were scummy? even if I did am I not allowed to suspect two people?

[AntB]

@Lazerus
Something so minor hidden for so long... Doesn't that seem fishy? And [sarcasm]I have a scum-read on myself[/sarcasm]. Try reading. You'd find out that Hiraki had a town-read on me for a potential OMGUS vote against Mr Wright, saying I returned the vote when in fact Mr Wright voted for Ant_to_the_Max meaning his town-read on me was misfounded. This is in no way a confession of scumminess. I'm just saying to have 2 town reads which are so incredibly minor and essentially wrong and to hide them for so long after several other facts have come to light makes me think there's something else going on. An early and badly placed scum-cover. My full basis for my vote agaisnt moose is in #75 and hirakis dissection is in the bottom of #89.

He seems to think that the post is my scumtells against moose, when it is in fact mostly the BS moose has splurted at us. It also seems to me to be slightly defensive against moose which to me is slightly weird as Kiraki is currently voting for moose and has been for longer than myself IIRC. If anyone wants an official definition of my position towards Kiraki it would be FoMS.

As Moose is at L-3 I would suggest two more people move to lynch to put moose at L-1. I wish to see mooses reaction to being on the executioners block.

[Ant_to_the_max]

Wait! Just quickly checking in right now, but Beefster, are you saying Boberz was overdefensive due to his chainsaw defense on Moose's wagon?

[boberz]

Ant is getting worse by thesecond. moose at l1, no thanks.

[AntB]

Moose cracked at L-3 or 4, I want to see how bad he cracks at L-1. If it will help any I will drop my vote as soon as I get a reaction (regardless of my stance) to prevent any accidental hammering. Theres 17 days until the deadline, we could gauge several people in this time if people are active enough.

No matter what happens, I believe we'll all get something out of this.

Also, you need to clarify which Ant your referring to... Earlier you put

After I looked at his past games, I don't think he is scum.

This is reffering to moose. Why is this so, surely at most you know he is capable of doing this as town. Have you seen him failing to do similar things as scum?
(Who else has played with moose? I have.)

Which is obviously aimed at AttM and then

Ant is getting worse by thesecond. moose at l1, no thanks.

Which I would assume is aimed at me.

[Lateralus22]

And [sarcasm]I have a scum-read on myself[/sarcasm].

Bleh, glazed over it fast. Still interested in what you think of though Ant_to_the_max.

As Moose is at L-3 I would suggest two more people move to lynch to put moose at L-1. I wish to see mooses reaction to being on the executioners block.

Looks to me like your just trying to bully him into emotionally breaking down. How has moose cracked? And no, his "BS" doesn't cut it.

Note: Need moar content from some people. {Mariyta ; Dekes ; Ant_to_the_max ; Mr Wright ; moose200x}

Mr Wright

: Why did you want to discuss moose but then ignore him for the rest of the game afterwards? Really the only expected responsed would be "yeah, he's anti-town but town" or "yeah, he's scummy scum" but it'd revolve more towards his play style and we'd get nowhere. Wouldn't including moose for player interactions as a legit member of the game be better? Who do you still have your RVS vote on?

Ant_to_the_max

: What's your opinion of Beefster's/moose's alignment? Did you leave your vote on AntB because you do think he's scum or did just not feel like taking it off?

Moose:

Place a vote down please.

Everyone else who's done little

: Do something.

[Lateralus22]

EBWOP:

Why

do you still have your RVS vote on? (@Ant_to_the_max)

[Lateralus22]

ebwop: No that's aimed towards Mr Wright not Ant_ >.>

Gotta stop posting at 1 AM >.>

[Beefster]

Wait! Just quickly checking in right now, but Beefster, are you saying Boberz was overdefensive due to his chainsaw defense on Moose's wagon?

Actually it was in regards to his vote on Hiraki on the first page. To be honest, I haven't really read pages 2 and 3.

[boberz]

Wait! Just quickly checking in right now, but Beefster, are you saying Boberz was overdefensive due to his chainsaw defense on Moose's wagon?

Actually it was in regards to his vote on Hiraki on the first page. To be honest, I haven't really read pages 2 and 3.

What? Not the post directly above the one that yo wrote?. Beefster, you fail.

[LordChronos]

Wait! Just quickly checking in right now, but Beefster, are you saying Boberz was overdefensive due to his chainsaw defense on Moose's wagon?

Actually it was in regards to his vote on Hiraki on the first page. To be honest, I haven't really read pages 2 and 3.

Beefster, he voted Hiraki for making a random vote while expressing suspicion of moose and for having town reads after a handful of posts.

That is not a chainsaw defense and for you to not have read the page of posting that you voted on is ridiculous.

Unvote; Vote: Beefster

[AntB]

@Lazarus

The initial signs of cracking to me are "Shall I roleclaim and get it over with?" at around L-3/4 then respond to me passing comment with what I can only call aggression by saying "THIS IS HOW I MOTHERF**KING PLAY". If this is how he responds when not in any particular danger I want to see his reaction and "bully" him into making posts what will actually contribute to the town. As far as I'm concerned he is actively lurking and despite several requests for information from him he has only provided BS. If this is how he plays I wonder how many games he's actually seen the end of.

AttM isn't as active as I would like him to be, otherwise so far in the 6 in game posts (less than 1 per page) he has been consistent and gathered an shared information.

Moose has made 24 in game posts and shared practically nothing.

@Beefster
Reeeeally? you haven't read pages 2 and 3 which is around 50 posts total you've missed out of 135 in-game posts. Over a third of the thread so far!