Mini 1095 - Fast Food Mafia - Game Over

[Thestatusquo]

I was responding directly to peanuts post. He mentions coaching, and then I respond saying that I find the post off, but not because of the reasons he just stated.

"Defensive" is as stupid a "scumtell" as has ever existed in the mafiascum vernacular. When someone gets attacked, they defend themselves. Town players do it. Scum players do it. Non aligned players do it. Its probably the most constant thing in the entire game across alignments.

You attacked me by suggesting that I was likely to be strangercougs scumbuddy based upon some misguided musings, and an inability to read. Of course I am going to respond to that kind of accusation. How do you expect a town player to respond differently from a scum player in that situations? Do town players somehow like being lynched more than scum players?

[EtherealCookie]

The issue isn't solely the defense. It's the fact you've basically left out any other points I've made. You can't possibly think there's no evidence to suggest a connection between you and Strangercoug. He clearly coached you on how to respond. There's no other reason for him to steal the question from you. Can you see any reason a townie would respond to a question directed to a different person? I can't. So it's either a bad move, and StrangerCoug seems like an experienced player, or it's scum trying to coach his scumbuddy. I don't see how you've interperted this as "misguided musings" and "an inability to read." I think you're simply worried that there's an actual link between you and Coug, and so you've tried to bus him, and now you're attempting to ridicule my argument as to make it appear as if it holds no weight. Furthermore, you state that you were responding to peanuts post. You realize that is a completely subjective thing? You never actually specify who you've directed your comment to. He mentions coaching, but I imply the same thing by responding I did not like how he jumped to answer your question. You are unclear with your response and you assume that the reader somehow understands your complete train of thought. As for your defensiveness, it certainly is a scumtell when you simply respond with "can you read" instead of an actual response that addresses the points made against you.

[Zang]

Votecount-

Chronopie - 1 - (CooLDoG) (L-6)
JasonT1981 - 1 - (StrangerCoug) (L-6)
CooLDoG - 1 - (Chronopie) (L-6)
Peanutman - 1 - (SnakePlissken) (L-6)
ragrhcpfreak - 1 - (Peanutman) (L-6)
StrangerCoug - 3 - (AntB, EtherealCookie, Thestatusquo) (L-4)

Not Voting: JasonT1981, Ghost Writer, curseddiplomat, ragrhcpfreak

7 needed to lynch

Deadline is December 28 at 3:15 pm EST

[Thestatusquo]

It's the fact you've basically left out any other points I've made. You can't possibly think there's no evidence to suggest a connection between you and Strangercoug. He clearly coached you on how to respond. There's no other reason for him to steal the question from you. Can you see any reason a townie would respond to a question directed to a different person? I can't. So it's either a bad move, and StrangerCoug seems like an experienced player, or it's scum trying to coach his scumbuddy.

There are three clear responses here. The first is that he was not the only player who answered the question. You're focusing on him, but not the other person. The second is that your either or is myopic. It doesn't take into account all possibilities. It just assumes you're right, and then finds ways for it to look as if its right. The miller was the major event that had happened thus far in the day. Is it not natural for people, checking the thread, to respond to it? It seems to me that people coming into a thread that is on day 1 with 1 page of discussion will venture their opinion on what had happened. In fact, the two people who came into the thread did that. Lastly, I do not need coaching. I've been playing mafia for 5 years now, 4 on this site. It doesn't make sense for strangercoug to coach me how to respond if I'm his scum buddy because clearly I ALREADY TOOK THE ACTION, and I obviously did it for a reason. The only reason for scumstrangercoug to coach me there is if he thinks theres a chance I don't know the correct answer to the question, which is ridiculous since I'm a 5 year veteran and already took the action, which would imply I know what I'm doing. Therefore the most logical possibility is that he came into thread, saw that a miller claim had happened, and ventured his opinions on it. Which is a non tell. I would expect both scum and town to do it.

I think you're simply worried that there's an actual link between you and Coug, and so you've tried to bus him, and now you're attempting to ridicule my argument as to make it appear as if it holds no weight.

Bussing is a bit of a stretch since it was my first vote on day 1. Maybe distancing, but really you're going to say I had a realistic goal of getting him lynched on page 3? That's stretching to the extreme. However, think of this way (and I did respond to you with more than ridicule. In fact, the quote you're refencing comes in the midst of a two paragraph post, but I'll get to that later.) Town sees someone drawing a false connection between him and someone he sees at scum, how does he respond? How does this differ from how scum would respond? In order for it to be a scumtell it has to have a clear cut difference in motivation, but it seems to me that both scum and town would have significant motivation to not be tied to a player they think is scum.

Furthermore, you state that you were responding to peanuts post. You realize that is a completely subjective thing? You never actually specify who you've directed your comment to. He mentions coaching, but I imply the same thing by responding I did not like how he jumped to answer your question. You are unclear with your response and you assume that the reader somehow understands your complete train of thought.

This is fair. I wasn't even thinking about your comments when I responded to peanuts post, but I thought it was clear that I was responding to his suspicions. I can see now that wasn't as clear as I thought it was.

As for your defensiveness, it certainly is a scumtell when you simply respond with "can you read" instead of an actual response that addresses the points made against you.

This is the part where you lose all focus. First off, you're not talking about defensiveness, you're talking about personal attacks here. That would be valid, if I had ONLY said "YOU'RE AN IDIOT." but I didn't I made arguments about the issue. The fact that you made that long post and I am responding to it proves that, as well as reading back in the thread. I'm an abbrasive player, its what I do. But I clearly was responding to all the arguments as I saw them.

[peanutman]

Unvote

VOTE: EtherealCookie
For you to believe so strongly that Statusquo and StrangerCoug are buddies who have made a connection (SC defending SQ) on the first innocuous question of the game (yours no less) is rather worrisome. I see two possible plays on your part : either scum trying to quickly build up steam on someone's wagon (the first opportunity), or an over-zealous townie blinded to different reasonings for one person's actions.
EC, do you really believe that your version of the events that you've recently explained is the only possible conclusion to come to?

[EtherealCookie]

There are three clear responses here. The first is that he was not the only player who answered the question. You're focusing on him, but not the other person.

Yes, because he was the first to respond to it. It doesn't matter if another person does, the question is already answered now, and the response the original person was supposed is no longer that important.

The second is that your either or is myopic. It doesn't take into account all possibilities. It just assumes you're right, and then finds ways for it to look as if its right. The miller was the major event that had happened thus far in the day. Is it not natural for people, checking the thread, to respond to it? It seems to me that people coming into a thread that is on day 1 with 1 page of discussion will venture their opinion on what had happened. In fact, the two people who came into the thread did that.

Sure, it's natural for people to respond to the claim. But answer a question that wasn't designated for them? That clearly strikes me as odd. Why not just wait for the person to explain why they did that? And yes, two people did respond to the matter at hand, but as I mentioned, it doesn't really matter anymore after the first person has already answered the question meant for you.

Lastly, I do not need coaching. I've been playing mafia for 5 years now, 4 on this site. It doesn't make sense for strangercoug to coach me how to respond if I'm his scum buddy because clearly I ALREADY TOOK THE ACTION, and I obviously did it for a reason. The only reason for scumstrangercoug to coach me there is if he thinks theres a chance I don't know the correct answer to the question, which is ridiculous since I'm a 5 year veteran and already took the action, which would imply I know what I'm doing. Therefore the most logical possibility is that he came into thread, saw that a miller claim had happened, and ventured his opinions on it. Which is a non tell. I would expect both scum and town to do it.

I've seen people who've driven for years. They still suck at it. What's your point? I understand that you're experienced, but experienced players still make mistakes. Strangercoug might want to coach you because he might simply be

worried

and done it at the heat of the moment. That isn't really an odd concept to grasp. Furthermore, you just said the post was a non-tell. If that's the case, why are you voting for him?

Bussing is a bit of a stretch since it was my first vote on day 1. Maybe distancing, but really you're going to say I had a realistic goal of getting him lynched on page 3? That's stretching to the extreme. However, think of this way (and I did respond to you with more than ridicule. In fact, the quote you're refencing comes in the midst of a two paragraph post, but I'll get to that later.) Town sees someone drawing a false connection between him and someone he sees at scum, how does he respond? How does this differ from how scum would respond? In order for it to be a scumtell it has to have a clear cut difference in motivation, but it seems to me that both scum and town would have significant motivation to not be tied to a player they think is scum.

So you admit you are distancing yourself from him. By admitting you are distancing yourself from him, you agree that there is a connection between you two, in that he tried to coach you. So, regardless of whether distancing is scummy or a town move, there is still a tie between you two, correct?

This is the part where you lose all focus. First off, you're not talking about defensiveness, you're talking about personal attacks here. That would be valid, if I had ONLY said "YOU'RE AN IDIOT." but I didn't I made arguments about the issue. The fact that you made that long post and I am responding to it proves that, as well as reading back in the thread. I'm an abbrasive player, its what I do. But I clearly was responding to all the arguments as I saw them.

Retaliating with a personal attack is a great way to defend yourself by weakening their argument. The best defense is a good offense, after all.

For you to believe so strongly that Statusquo and StrangerCoug are buddies who have made a connection (SC defending SQ) on the first innocuous question of the game (yours no less) is rather worrisome. I see two possible plays on your part : either scum trying to quickly build up steam on someone's wagon (the first opportunity), or an over-zealous townie blinded to different reasonings for one person's actions.
EC, do you really believe that your version of the events that you've recently explained is the only possible conclusion to come to?

It's day 1. I'm not sure of anything. However, I certainly don't have any better leads. If something is scummy in front of me, I'm going to pursue it. I don't see how you've come to the conclusion that it's a scum move. You voted for me. Does this mean you strongly believe that I am scum? I'd imagine not, you don't have enough credible evidence. But from your perspective, it seems to be the best lead you have so far, and so you'd pursue it. And after all, you've already established that I'm either scum or over-zealous townie, so you seem nearly as sure as I do about other people's roles. Of course, you don't mean it to be read this way; you're just pursuing the leads you have. Likewise, I'm doing the same. I'm always open to new evidence and willing to look over different people, but at the moment, I am getting negative vibes from both thestatusquo and StrangerCoug.

[Thestatusquo]

I am voting him for other reasons, which I explained. I specifically said I do not think he's coaching. That was the genesis of this whole debate.

[Thestatusquo]

For the record, I don't think it's worth getting into a larger quote wall over this. I've explained myself pretty adequately, and nothing new is going to be said on the subject even if I do make another MASSIVE WALL OF TEXT tm

[rajrhcpfreak]

this game is going really fast so ill let you all know that my final architecture project is due in 12.5 hours so i wont be checking the thread for a day.

[Thestatusquo]

Fair enough Raj, I expect participation after that, and will give you grief if not.

[StrangerCoug]

Strangercougs post read funny to me as well, but not for coaching. His post doesn't take any clear positions against anything, yet warns us of...What exactly? Avoiding shenanigans? What shenanigans are we going to avoid exactly? At the same time he says we should leave me alone right now he poisons my well like woah.

I did not say to leave you alone. In fact, I said the exact opposite—to pay close attention to you. Miller is an easy scum claim (I believe scum's claimed miller off the bat in Go Play in Traffic!). But since correct miller play is to claim it immediately, in terms of alignment tells it's ultimately null. Based on how you're handling the situation, I think you're good other than that.

As far as what else happened last night... EtherealCookie, EtherealCookie, EtherealCookie. When Thestatusquo claimed, he said "Let the fireworks begin," I interpreted as an open invitation to discuss it. I may have answered the question for him, but I would have answered vaguely (I effectively said "he claimed miller because strategy says so"). This may or may not be why he went into further detail himself; I cannot read Thestatusquo's mind.

You can't possibly think there's no evidence to suggest a connection between you and Strangercoug. He clearly coached you on how to respond.

No I did not. In fact, note the wording—Thestatusquo knows what he is and the interpretation that I was talking specifically to him is absurd. I can see how my saying don't auto-assume Thestatusquo is scum

MIGHT

link me to him, but it's a bit of a stretch.

So it's either a bad move, and StrangerCoug seems like an experienced player, or it's scum trying to coach his scumbuddy.

So either Thestatusquo is a village idiot or we're both scum, neither of which make much sense.

I don't see how you've interperted this as "misguided musings" and "an inability to read." I think you're simply worried that there's an actual link between you and Coug, and so you've tried to bus him, and now you're attempting to ridicule my argument as to make it appear as if it holds no weight.

Did anybody other than me so much as play with the possibility of Thestatusquo-scum before the wagon on me started?

Furthermore, you state that you were responding to peanuts post. You realize that is a completely subjective thing? You never actually specify who you've directed your comment to. He mentions coaching, but I imply the same thing by responding I did not like how he jumped to answer your question. You are unclear with your response and you assume that the reader somehow understands your complete train of thought.

You made your coaching comment after Thestatusquo voted me. For him to be responsing to you makes no sense.

As for your defensiveness, it certainly is a scumtell when you simply respond with "can you read" instead of an actual response that addresses the points made against you.

I'd like to know who wrote your book of tells, because that person is a crappy author. If you're clearly ignoring important points, then I don't see why the implication of the question is invalid.

UNVOTE: jasonT1981
VOTE: EtherealCookie

[CooLDoG]

I think it is good play to claim right off the bat, miller is the standard scum claim. I honestly don't think a town player would claim miller unless they have a death wish. Yes thats wifom but I just find scum claiming miller so early un-likly.

I don't get this. First of all, it is a good play for who to claim right off the bat? Then, you're saying that the claim is "standard scum claim" and you don't think a town player would claim "unless they have a death wish". However, an early gambit from scum-statusquo is unlikely. Your last sentence doesn't match at all with the first. In the end, I don't know what you're trying to say.

Gotta post wuick,

Okay what I meant to say was that it was a good idea for him to claim quick because he was a miller, I don't like mass claims early on, but for a Miller, which is what scum claim alot, I think it is good play to claim early... Sorry I was unclear I'm in a rush atm I will post more later....

[EtherealCookie]

I'll post more when I'm not at school, but I'd like to point out that StrangerCoug has provided absolutely no rationale for his vote against me. It seems to be more hopping on an opportunity more than anything. When I'm back, I'll respond to your points. However, I've already addressed nearly everything you've mentioned.

[Thestatusquo]

Hopping on what opportunity, pray tell? He's the only one voting you.

[AntB]

UNVOTE: StrangeCoug RVS vote no longer needed, I don't see a need to maintain my vote.

EtheralCookie and StatusQuo seem to be going for blood over possibly mis-read posts and opinons. I have a town read on both for now, unless they're both scum and playing outside the box hoping the other doesn't slip up. I''m personally going to ignore the miller claim as it could be used by the scum as an attempt to cover up or could be a genuine claim.

[Thestatusquo]

There's quite a few people who need to post. How long til we get some prods?

[StrangerCoug]

I'll post more when I'm not at school, but I'd like to point out that StrangerCoug has provided absolutely no rationale for his vote against me. It seems to be more hopping on an opportunity more than anything. When I'm back, I'll respond to your points. However, I've already addressed nearly everything you've mentioned.

Feel free to comment the moment you're available to do so, but "I addressed it already" does not make the problem go away.

[EtherealCookie]

Hopping on what opportunity, pray tell? He's the only one voting you.

Um... Please learn to read.

You stole the words right out of my mouth.

Unvote
VOTE: EtherealCookie
For you to believe so strongly that Statusquo and StrangerCoug are buddies who have made a connection (SC defending SQ) on the first innocuous question of the game (yours no less) is rather worrisome. I see two possible plays on your part : either scum trying to quickly build up steam on someone's wagon (the first opportunity), or an over-zealous townie blinded to different reasonings for one person's actions.
EC, do you really believe that your version of the events that you've recently explained is the only possible conclusion to come to?

Unvote

VOTE: EtherealCookie
For you to believe so strongly that Statusquo and StrangerCoug are buddies who have made a connection (SC defending SQ) on the first innocuous question of the game (yours no less) is rather worrisome. I see two possible plays on your part : either scum trying to quickly build up steam on someone's wagon (the first opportunity), or an over-zealous townie blinded to different reasonings for one person's actions.
EC, do you really believe that your version of the events that you've recently explained is the only possible conclusion to come to?

[quote="StrangerCoug]Feel free to comment the moment you're available to do so, but "I addressed it already" does not make the problem go away.

I'll post more when I'm not at school, but I'd like to point out that StrangerCoug has provided absolutely no rationale for his vote against me. It seems to be more hopping on an opportunity more than anything. When I'm back, I'll respond to your points. However, I've already addressed nearly everything you've mentioned.

Feel free to comment the moment you're available to do so, but "I addressed it already" does not make the problem go away.
[/quote]
I'm aware. Give me a while though, I've just got back and need to do some work. I'll hopefully make a post in the next five hours.

[Thestatusquo]

Ok, this level of activity is ridiculous. We have had only 8 people post since the start of d1, and only 4 in the last day. Mod, get your prod/replacement game on, plz.

[StrangerCoug]

Antsy, TSQ, aren't you? The game just started yesterday!

[EtherealCookie]

No I did not. In fact, note the wording—Thestatusquo knows what he is and the interpretation that I was talking specifically to him is absurd. I can see how my saying don't auto-assume Thestatusquo is scum MIGHT link me to him, but it's a bit of a stretch.

The latter seems to me very unlikely. Coaching has to be more subtle than that unless you want to just throw out you're scum in the open. Perhaps me using "clearly" wasn't the best choice of words, but it still seems to stick out to me.

So either Thestatusquo is a village idiot or we're both scum, neither of which make much sense.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm not taking 100% stands on anything. I'm just following the leads that I find because I have nothing else to go off of.

Did anybody other than me so much as play with the possibility of Thestatusquo-scum before the wagon on me started?

I don't understand this question, to be honest.

You made your coaching comment after Thestatusquo voted me. For him to be responsing to you makes no sense.

I implied with my response that I didn't like how you jumped to answer the question for him that you were coaching or trying to defend him somehow.

I'd like to know who wrote your book of tells, because that person is a crappy author. If you're clearly ignoring important points, then I don't see why the implication of the question is invalid.

Dodging the question isn't scummy? Town should be able to answer it easily.

UNVOTE: jasonT1981
VOTE: EtherealCookie

Reasoning behind this? None has been provided. That just makes you seem more scummy to me.

EtheralCookie and StatusQuo seem to be going for blood over possibly mis-read posts and opinons. I have a town read on both for now, unless they're both scum and playing outside the box hoping the other doesn't slip up. I''m personally going to ignore the miller claim as it could be used by the scum as an attempt to cover up or could be a genuine claim.

Anything more to add?
How do you feel about the votes on StrangerCoug? Do you believe anyone voting for him could be scum? Do you think the case holds any weight?
How do you feel about the two votes on myself? Do you believe anyone voting for me could be scum? Do you think the case holds any weight?


As for the activity, it's rather horrid and slow. Regardless of when the game started, there's a lot of content to respond to. The lurking isn't helping town any.

[CooLDoG]

SC is not scummy, keep in mind that Choro also posted before TSQ could post... I don't see it as coaching as much as stating the obvious.

@Antb, really ignore the claim? So the most content that has been generated to this point you are simply going to ignore? How is this productive? Play out both situations (one being that TSQ is scum, the other him being town), which one seems more likely? Unless you have real life issues I would love for you to respond to this and EC's questions as well.

@EC, no more text walls... at least this early.

From what I read, TSQ's play seems fairly town, I don't think he is a good d-1 lynch, and I don't think SC is scum today at least.

@TSQ, what is your fast food joint? Answer this.

[CooLDoG]

The second to last sentence really needs a comma after scum...

[Zang]

JasonT1981 and Curseddiplomat will be prodded

[Thestatusquo]

I'm pretty confident cookie is town. Just sayin.