Mini 1090: Of Rogues and Curses ~ Game Over

[Mariyta]

My experience w/ him was in Random Mafia 2. He was lynched fairly quickly, if I remember right, after playing horribly scummy.

[tanstalas]

I'm starting to believe it after that huge conspiracy theory of fail he posted. Need to reassess things perhaps.

Why don't you point out what was wrong in my analysis instead of just calling me bad.

Everything I said was true. You three together have seemed most scummy to me, and I made points, also your interactions between you three make me suspicious as well.

Do you DENY that Exe's case on me was WORSE than my case on Gandalf? Seriously. They were the same thing, except I actually explained my vote more than Exe did on me. I want you to answer that question.

[VP Baltar]

Here's a hint as to what is wrong with your posts: you're drawing WIFOM conclusions and comparing unrelated things.

Exe's case on you is not related to your case on gandalf in any way, shape or form. Nor is my opinion of Exe related to my opinion of you or my opinion of him. You have no flips to justify anything you're saying; therefore, you should take your

ball

tea leaves and go home.

You should stop typing now and reassess how you draw links between players.

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: "Nor is your opinion of Exe related to..."

[Mariyta]

Exe: The first thing that I don't like, though it's not scummy per se, is the complaint that some people had suspicions but weren't voting. There's nothing wrong with not placing a vote if you're not certain. I also disagree that it's scummy to have trouble reading a game at the beginning. Sometimes it's just hard to get a feel for the game, especially when you're playing with a bunch of new people. Tries to link me and Morthrax despite the fact that I'm not dead yet (pre-flip links are useless at best).

Uite's vote of Xvart makes sense, however I don't really feel as though the claim was saving enough to deserve an unvote of Mariyta, based on his previous attitude. Worth noting if Mariyta ultimately flips scum.

But then he goes and votes my "scum buddy" Mothrax instead of sticking w/ me and says he would have "no problem hammering" if my wagon picked up again. This is where I started to get suspicious of him. Aside from Fate, I don't think I've ever played with a townie who claimed the hammer. It seems to come mostly from scum. Then he backs off again and starts calling me a VI, which pisses me off, but isn't necessarily scummy. Just a-holeish.

So in summary, I think Exe is scum based on his constant flip-flopping between me and Mothrax, the fact that he keeps linking us (I still don't understand why) and because he was so adamant about hammering me (while voting Mothrax).

Going to try to do xvart ISO now.

[Mariyta]

Xvart: Did you misread and think I cast my vote on gandalf

after

his claim?
I don't understand his case on Uite. But his last post is the one that's really scummy. I've already pointed out the super scummy parts to it, but the whole thing is just bad.

[tanstalas]

1) Exe's case on you is not related to your case on gandalf in any way, shape or form.

2) Nor is my opinion of Exe related to my opinion of you or my opinion of him.

3) You have no flips to justify anything you're saying;

4) therefore, you should take your

ball

tea leaves and go home.

#1 You wouldn't call Exe's case on me opportunistic? Really? You think his vote on me was justified? You think it was a good reason? You REALLY think that Exe's case on me for a vote was better than my case on Gandalf for a vote?

I really do not expect an answer from you, I expect you to evade the question or call me a VI.

#2 You have an opinion of Exe? Well I guess you have an opinion of Exe, sure you do, you are either town and you think he is town because you have ONLY defended him in ANY posts you have made regarding him, or he is your scum buddy - if he gets lynched and flips scum I guess you can also play the 'dumb' card and say "gosh, gee willikers, I really thought he was town"

#3 For the third part: You have flips to justify anything that

you

are saying?

#4 I guess we will see when this game ends who should take their

ball

tea leaves and go home

[VP Baltar]

#1 You wouldn't call Exe's case on me opportunistic? Really? You think his vote on me was justified? You think it was a good reason? You REALLY think that Exe's case on me for a vote was better than my case on Gandalf for a vote?

I never said anything of this nature.

#2 You have an opinion of Exe? Well I guess you have an opinion of Exe, sure you do, you are either town and you think he is town because you have ONLY defended him in ANY posts you have made regarding him, or he is your scum buddy - if he gets lynched and flips scum I guess you can also play the 'dumb' card and say "gosh, gee willikers, I really thought he was town"

When did I say I have no opinion of Exe? Please quote. Furthermore, I never "defended" him at all, nor did I call him town. I asked Mariyta for her case 1) because I wanted a condensed version and 2) I was testing to see if she knew her own stuff.

#3 For the third part: You have flips to justify anything that you are saying?

I'm not calling scum teams, but rather am actually hunting for scum. Ergo, I don't need flips for justifications. The only think that could be remotely construed this way is saying Mariyta-xvart scum team, and that was more just a pass to judge reactions. You actually believe the shit you're spewing. That's the scary part.

#4 I guess we will see when this game ends who should take their

ball

tea leaves and go home

Don't be butthurt. Just play the game and try to think critically when you make your accusations instead of trying to bend whatever you can to fit your current outlook. You'll catch more scum that way.

[gandalf5166]

Question for gandalf. What changed between 222 and 224?

I was considering what she stated as flavor. I now see that everyone has essentially the same thing there.

Tanstalas is being even more stupid than usual.

[nocase]

sorry, xvart, i didn't expect you to cling to such a dumb question. i wagoned because it was the best place for my vote in terms of garnering reactions.

tanstalas looks town. let's hang the exe man.

[Exe]

Sorry, I've been falling behind with this game lately. Let's see here.

Tans ties between me, VPB, and Gandalf are a huge reach. I don't know if I believe he's really genuine in it. Like that I'm linked to Gandalf just because I think he's been pro-town: Because, you know, scum would definitely overtly state that their scum-buddies are pro-town. That seems likely.

Mariyta, stop trying to parrot VPB's "pre-flip connections" argument. Mothrax jumped in to attack Gandalf in order to derail the wagon on you. I sense an ulterior motive: do you really think he just happened to find Gandalf scummy AND find you townie, and gandalf just happened to be on your wagon? Considering that his Gandalf case was crap anyways, I sense a false effort from Mothrax. His motivation does not seem pro-town to me in the least. Hence, my vote is on Mothrax.
Also Mariyta, not having your vote on someone suggests that you are being cautious. Scum have a lot more incentive to be cautious than town.

Xvart is rapidly rising on my suspect list. His post 268 shows a lot of buddying and not much real scum-hunting. I would support an Xvart lynch if Mothrax won't be lynched.

[inHimshallibe]

Damn, I'm starting to believe we should've just lynched Mariyta. I totally skimmed the "oh, besides the daughter of Ungrika" part of all that mess.

[mothrax]

Sorry, I've been falling behind with this game lately. Let's see here.

Tans ties between me, VPB, and Gandalf are a huge reach. I don't know if I believe he's really genuine in it. Like that I'm linked to Gandalf just because I think he's been pro-town: Because, you know, scum would definitely overtly state that their scum-buddies are pro-town. That seems likely.

Mariyta, stop trying to parrot VPB's "pre-flip connections" argument.

Mothrax jumped in to attack Gandalf in order to derail the wagon on you.

I sense an ulterior motive: do you really think he just happened to find Gandalf scummy AND find you townie, and gandalf just happened to be on your wagon? Considering that his Gandalf case was crap anyways, I sense a false effort from Mothrax. His motivation does not seem pro-town to me in the least. Hence, my vote is on Mothrax.
Also Mariyta, not having your vote on someone suggests that you are being cautious. Scum have a lot more incentive to be cautious than town.

Xvart is rapidly rising on my suspect list. His post 268 shows a lot of buddying and not much real scum-hunting. I would support an Xvart lynch if Mothrax won't be lynched.

False...
I said in my orriginal attack on gandalf that I found Mariyta to be equally useless... I don;t know how many times I have to say this but I will say it one more time: I voted and am voting gandalf because of his hipocracy in his attacks on Mariyta. I aslo noted that I would also be down for a Mariyta lynch, but at the time of my vote I wasn't ready to lynch anyone, and therefore didn't vote the major wagon, which I believe was at L-2 or similar at the time.

[Exe]

@Mothrax: I'm aware that you SAY your whole case was built around his hypocrisy. However, I saw chainsaw defense.

[VP Baltar]

How can it be chainsaw defense when you don't know any alignments yet. You scum this game Exe?

[xvart]

I don't understand xvart's latest post. First, there's no reason gandalf and I can't have the same role, especially since we're both claiming vanilla.

I find it unlikely that both your pm's are so incongruous with each other. Someone (either Vi or VP) said they were going to look into past mod role pm's to see if this might be a possibility, but for now I think it is sufficient enough that one of you has to be scum, and I believe that is you.

You're not siding with gandalf. You're siding with gandalf's initial read, and using him as your excuse. Now I'm questioning my initial read on you.

It wasn't his initial read. He said you might be town, but in one of his next posts said you were still scum. That is why I asked him to clarify his "might be town" statement. Furthermore, unless something is dug up that indicates drastically different pm's for VTs in past games I don't see scum doing a one for one trade to eliminate one town on D1, as if gandalf is scum he would be doing by saying your scum based on the differences in your pm. If we lynched you based on this and you did flip town then he has set himself up to be lynched the next day. Not a good move for scum this early in the game.

xvart #117 - don't like first statement re: daycop fake. Talking as if gandalf made some gutsy fake.

I wasn't talking about some "gutsy fake" by gandalf. I was talking about gandalf doing something that would draw attention so early and I don't see him doing that as scum based on my past games with him. The specifics of the act are irrelevant. It is the act itself.

TO make it even more fun, all the posts Exe has made in reference to Gandalf:

In regards to Gandalf, he's being as useless as ever. Would like to see more content out of him, but I've yet to see a game where he didn't spend half the time goofing off, regardless of alignment.

Gandalf seems slightly more pro-town than usual.

Went from being useless to pro-town

Actually he went from useless to "slightly more pro-town than usual." The proper question to ask at this juncture, if you are really trying to push this is asking the specifics of his comparison to now, because Exe could think that gandalf is always super scummy and being slightly more pro-town does not equal pro-town in this instance. This is just a bad example at best and a blatant misrep at worst.

Xvart: Did you misread and think I cast my vote on gandalf

after

his claim?

No. My read on the whole situation (and you) has nothing to do with your vote on him.

Question for gandalf. What changed between 222 and 224?

I was considering what she stated as flavor. I now see that everyone has essentially the same thing there.

So do you still think she is lying about her VT claim?

sorry, xvart, i didn't expect you to cling to such a dumb question. i wagoned because it was the best place for my vote in terms of garnering reactions.

And the part about if there had been another vote on someone else at the time how would you have decided who to wagon then? Way back when you seemed awfully ambiguous about your intentions for voting and was answering questions with questions. I wanted (and still do) a straight answer that if there were two people with one vote each would gandalf's claim have made any difference on choosing which person you voted for (to get reactions)?

Damn, I'm starting to believe we should've just lynched Mariyta. I totally skimmed the "oh, besides the daughter of Ungrika" part of all that mess.

It's not too late.

[Exe]

How can it be chainsaw defense when you don't know any alignments yet. You scum this game Exe?

I'm telling you how it reads to me. I don't see his jump on Gandalf and attempt to derail the wagon as a logical pro-town move. Simplest explanation would be chainsaw defense, out of possible scum-motives.

[mothrax]

@Exe: explain how it is chainsaw defense when I am perfectly happy with either lynch.

[Zorblag]

I haven't forgotten about this game, I've just been dealing with a surprising full and pleasant weekend and then getting ready for and through the last week of classes. I'll take a closer look at what's happened since I was about last tomorrow but for now here are some quick thoughts.

It seems Vi was correct to predict a Mariyta wagon deterioration. Or perhaps complete implosion at this point. What confuses me about it here is that I don't think the people who are leaving it are indicating that they think she's less likely to be scum or that the reasons they had for suspicion have been addressed; we just seemed to get a bunch of talk about flavor and power roles (that was probably much more useful to scum than to town) and most everyone picked up and went various directions.

Of the resulting wagons I don't think the one on gandalf5166 is a good idea; I don't think that he's done anything particularly scummy and other than not liking that it happened at all I'm reasonably satisfied with what he's had to say about his role and PM. Exe and mothrax are decent choices if we don't want to lynch Mariyta at this point but I'm not sure why they're superior.

VP Baltar is probably getting hung up on more trivial things that I expect him to at this point but I'm used to watching him play while I'm scum so that sort of thing probably wouldn't have bothered me at all in almost all the previous games I've been in with him and I might not have been as inclined to noticed it.

@mothrax, you certainly seemed to be more suspicious of gandalf5166 than Mariyta when you cast your vote. Are you saying that you found them equally suspicious at the time? I wonder why you didn't make some mention of the merit of the cases on Mariyta at the time if that was true rather than just saying that there was scum on the wagon (which incidentally I wouldn't really expect would need to be true if she was scum.)

@Mariyta, you've said you're busy and that you'll be back with more analysis but are Exe and xvart currently the only two players you're particularly suspicious of? They seem to be the ones you're concerned with based on who you've been talking about.

@Exe, why was it that you weren't interested in staying on the Mariyta wagon if your vote wasn't a hammer? If the wagon was hammer-worthy then why wasn't it worth showing support for with a vote other than a hammer?

@Those who left the Mariyta wagon, do you think that she's significantly more likely to be town now than when you were voting for her or do you just think that your votes since are on even stronger candidates?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[mothrax]

4 ~ Mariyta (Vi, inHimshallibe, Zorblag, gandalf5166)

There be scum on this wagon!

$20 on gandalf
Reasons:
A1) his vote on Mariyta is pure 100% hipocracy: He claims she has done nothing of note other than complain about his fakeclaim

(not disputing that),

yet if you look at his iso, 8 of 14 posts are about his fake claim.
B2) The rest of his posts are throwing out suspicions of 4 different players yet doing nothing to back them up. Town make cases as to why someone is scum, not just sit there and say "Person A is scum" and ride the wagon. Hell, even nocase has presented more of a case at this point.
C3) When voting Mariyta, he admits to blatant bandwagoning... check his post right before his vote, he litterally says "I'm going to see if this case has any merit" and jumps on the wagon.

therefor:

Unvote; Vote: gandalf5166

Mod edit: Fixed the quote tag.

[nocase]

i'm getting bad vibes from mothrax. i'm down with offing him if exe can't go.

[tanstalas]

It looks like most of us agree to an Exe lynch

Unvote:
Vote: Exe

I've given plenty of reasons in past posts (even though most of you don't agree with them, so be it, that's just how I see it)

[gandalf5166]

Me and Mariyta's PMs are perfectly congruous, xvart. I have the same chunk of flavor at the beginning as she does, with one word change.

Should I just go ahead and tell you what my VT role is, since I've already claimed VT anyways?

[Ythill]

Do not quote (or pretend to quote) moderator PMs in any format, though you may paraphrase them. Do not discuss the exact wording or time stamps of PMs.

Some of you are flirting with the rules. Back from the brink, please.

• Vote Count
  
  4 ~ Exe (Mariyta, Vi, nocase, tanstalas)
  3 ~ mothrax (Exe, gandalf5166, inHimshallibe)
  2 ~ gandalf5166 (mothrax, Uite)
  2 ~ Mariyta (Zorblag, xvart)
  1 ~ tanstalas (VP Baltar)
  
  Not voting:

• Notes
  
  
• With twelve alive, it takes seven to lynch.
  
• Deadline is December 21st, 22:00 PST (GMT-8).
  
• D1 prods: Zorblag (1).
  
• Gandalf5166 is V/LA until December 9th.

[VP Baltar]

@Those who left the Mariyta wagon, do you think that she's significantly more likely to be town now than when you were voting for her or do you just think that your votes since are on even stronger candidates?

I do, but I also feel I'm one of the few people who read the flavor shake out carefully. I'll be moving my vote though, because tanstalas proved that he misses the point not just with Mariyta, but with everything else in the game. Though I do think he is more likely scum than her at this point.

I take it you feel she's still clearly scum?