Mini 1094 - Mariposa Peak Mafia - Game Over!

[DemonHybrid]

I note Powerrox93's signature and would like to remind everyone of rule #20:

20. Don't post elsewhere on mafiascum about this thread, and don't quote anything from the game in your signature until the game is over.

However, feel free to sig anything that does not have to do with game content itself. This is a public notice that I'm changing the rule to note that. I'm okay with his sigged quote, but be careful and be smart with it.

[Powerrox93]

I note Powerrox93's signature and would like to remind everyone of rule #20:

20. Don't post elsewhere on mafiascum about this thread, and don't quote anything from the game in your signature until the game is over.

However, feel free to sig anything that does not have to do with game content itself. This is a public notice that I'm changing the rule to note that. I'm okay with his sigged quote, but be careful and be smart with it.

Sorry, I've must have missed that one *Removing it ASAP*

[DemonHybrid]

I note Powerrox93's signature and would like to remind everyone of rule #20:

20. Don't post elsewhere on mafiascum about this thread, and don't quote anything from the game in your signature until the game is over.

However, feel free to sig anything that does not have to do with game content itself. This is a public notice that I'm changing the rule to note that. I'm okay with his sigged quote, but be careful and be smart with it.

Sorry, I've must have missed that one *Removing it ASAP*

It's okay Keep it if you'd like. Just no core gameplay discussion. Just nipping this in the bud before it gets out of hand.

Please continue.

[Thor665]

Your FOS however, is preceeded by a logical backing, it's , though not heavy, usable for pressure.

What do you see as the logical thinking that preceded my Rhinox suspicion? I literally just tossed his name out with no stated reasoning at all. Also, I'd love your opinion on my reply to Powerrox at the bottom of this post.

1. Looking back, Thor, you still haven't explained why you didn't mention AGar's policy lynch vote against Singer. Though AGar mentioned it's out of style for him and that you should have known that.
2. Question before continuing: How come you kept your vote against AGar and didn't switch to Rhinox?
3. I do like your point against AGar about his vote switching in the same post and I hope he responds to it. Can you tell a bit more about AGar's play?

1. I didn't explain it because I don't have an answer. The logic is predicated on his belief that I would catch it. So either I caught it and scumtastically decided not to use a meta argument on him for a mislynch (because scum me...wouldn't want to lynch town AGar?) or I just missed it in which case there is no way to prove/disprove the thought. I considered it a meaningless comment on the whole.

2. ::facepalm:: Return question - why should I have? My Rhinox suspicion was an RVS one, as was the AGar one. With them being equal I'd rather leave the first vote out there until I get a reaction/see a better place for my vote.

3. Yes. Though my urge to try to write a big post on everything I perceive about AGar's playstyle seems a poor exchange on the effort to advantage scale. Overall I consider him a good player and I've seen him transform some of those little insight tells of his into brilliantly accurate conclusions. I've never played with him as scum. He's played with me as both town and scum. That should give you all the basic info you need.

Maybe I wasn't interested at all in AGar, maybe I was more interested in Rhinox by then.

Maybe?
Maybe

Were you interested in Rhinox and not AGar or weren't you? You're playing a weak semantics game and hiding behind a defense someone else provided you without even having the conviction to say whether or not you were or were not interested in AGar. You, sir, are as scummy as a NYC public lavatory.

[Powerrox93]

Were you interested in Rhinox and not AGar or weren't you?¹ You're playing a weak semantics game and hiding behind a defense someone else provided you without even having the conviction to say whether or not you were or were not interested in AGar.²

1: After I've got the explanation of Rhinox then there was a large chance of me asking questions about AGar.
2: Well sorry because of the fact that I wasn't at home by the time CC posted that posts.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Thor665

[Thor665]

Wow.

1. Why did you want the explanation on Rhinox first - you still haven't clarified this.
2. Okay...but why wouldn't you just clarify instead of asking me questions about *your* motivations. Why not just tell me your motivations?

[AGar]

For BQ:

@Agar
'Serious' policy lynch vote or just to use it for the RVS?

Semi-serious. Unless she shows me something other than I've seen, I'm leery of seeing her make it to endgame. Opinions that can be changed.

[1] On to AGar. Why did you mention policy and meta if you normally don't do so? And what's in it for scum-Thor to not mention it?
Also, could you still answer my question in post 40 for clarification?

[2] To both AGar and Thor, both of you state that Power singled Rhinox out by only asking Thor about his reasons for wanting to lynch Rhinox, while 'ignoring' the reasons against AGar. However, Carrot does the same and both of you don't mention how scummy that is from Carrot? How come?

[3] Agreed with Rhinox his question against AGar.

[1] Hoping to maybe spark discussion. Scum-Thor could benefit in a mislynch of SS if he doesn't bring it up, but he's played many games with me, which is why I semi-targetted him. I also can't read him for shit, so it was an attempt to get a read of him.

[2] I overlooked Carrot because of the CC/SS debate that gave more to work with.

[3] This has been resolved.

Other than that, there's one more thing against AGar:

Vote Count

Day 1 Vote Count (#5)

sims5487

- 4 (Rhinox, ConfidAnon, Guderian, Powerrox03)

AGar

- 4 (Reckamonic, Seraphim, sims5487, Blood Queen)[/area]

You mentioned the wagons, right? Shall we look more closely?
From the 4 votes against Sims, the vote from Rhinox is a Random Vote.
From the 4 votes against you, Dramonerx, Seraphim and sims are all Random Votes.
Leaving Sims with 3 serious votes and you with 1 serious vote. Wanna try that again?

4 votes on Sims: Rhinox was RVS, Confid was serious, Gud was hardly serious on the surface (he slipped on), and I'm skeptical that PR thought that through.

4 votes on me: Reckamonic was RVS, Sera was RVS, sims was RVS and you were serious.

Yes.

What's the point?

My point is, a wagon grew and sims has seemed scummy in the eyes of several people. Even if they aren't on the wagon, many mentioned the over-reaction. The wagon has potential. My wagon, as far as I've seen, has none, aside from your opinion. But it at least staved off sims from getting steam by trying to get the attention off of him and on to me.

My thoughts on sims are neutral as far as his behavior is concerned. But the interaction of his wagon is what's damning for me. If you flip scum, he's next on my firing list. If you somehow flip town, I'll need to re-read him for behavior.

---

Agar is clearly being political.Knowingly pushing a weak agenda, as he doesn't have the load of accountability.

Not sure what you're getting at here about "pushing a weak agenda." This wagon analysis is rock solid, I believe. I'm holding myself highly accountable, putting 2 and a half reads out there with a lot of certainty. I want BQ lynched today.

If you're talking about the PR thing - I found it suspicious, but I don't believe I posted a vote on him. I did note it, yes. It's good practice to be pretty transparent.

---

Thor: Thoughts on what I'm bringing here?

[Thor665]

Thor: Thoughts on what I'm bringing here?

Well, I think you can read me - you just always get town vibes (which is good this game, go with it)
I've actually recalled now a time you did discuss policy lynches (in one of our QTs you pointed out a couple players you considered decent ones as I recollect now)

Now to the actual meat;

Your wagon analysis is interesting. I tend to give you some slack on this because I've seen you pull some silly insight before (like asking two players to make a case on each other, pegging them both as scum and even identifying which was the RBer - WTF?) But I'm not sure I see the dire trend you're indicating is there. I do find BQ a reasonable consideration for a lynch, as I don't have a town read on her. But my current read there feels very muddled so I'm not willing to hop off the Powerrox express just yet.

I've actually rejoined on your policy lynch thing - but now your theory is that I was just going to let a policy lynch play through? You should know I don't tend to let policy lynch wagons slid very far as town, and as scum you've seen me pick my mislynches and fight to make them happen - so neither of my playstyles were likely to angle for a slide through policy. Plus, you were trying it during ruddy RVS - in RVS I advocate policy lynches, and I don't believe in them either. Why would I want to slap around a perfectly reasonable wagon starting comment? Your test was either silly (if you're town) or is being overplayed (if you're scum).

I disagree with Carrot calling your pushes "weak", but I don't think I've really agreed with anything Carrot has said yet.
You did post a vote on Powerrox.

What's your current read on Powerrox - he's flinging newbie juice from his pores right at the moment and I want to hear someone else tack a crack at wading through it to find the town/scum nougat center.

[Guderian]

By page seven, it seems Thor is more interested in making friends than anything else. Jokes, silliness and just a general style talking. Gut feeling is that he want to be the 'good guy' of the town. I get distinct scum vibes when I read his posts.

[Guderian]

If you flip scum, he's next on my firing list. If you somehow flip town, I'll need to re-read him for behavior.

Cant miss this nugget from Agar. Setting up actions predicated on previous actions = scum. If X, and X is bad, does not mean we should do Y and then Z and then....

[sims5487]

These two posts are the smartest thing you've said all game, Gud.

AGar, I'm not sure how you can say you wagon theory is "rock solid". It's weak, at best. It's way too idealistic and perfect to be true, even if it is "logical".

I don't trust Thor trying to be buddy-buddy but I don't know if I would say that's a scum tell just yet...

[ConfidAnon]

Cant miss this nugget from Agar. Setting up actions predicated on previous actions = scum. If X, and X is bad, does not mean we should do Y and then Z and then....

Normally, I'd agree with something like this, but in this particular instance, I don't think it's that scummy.

If he were saying "Lynch Blood Queen. If Town, lynch ConfidAnon. If scum, lynch sims," it would be more suspect because he's trying to lead up a lynch with another lynch regardless of what happens. But in this game, his suspicion of Blood Queen directly stems from what he views as Blood Queen's protection (from joining the AGar wagon) of sims. While I'm not sure pursuing a lynch this early based purely on voting patterns and not on individual scumminess is the best course of action, saying "Lynch Blood Queen. If scum, lynch sims. If not scum, I'll reread sims" is not scummy - it's a logical continuation of his viewpoint.

[Thor665]

I don't trust Thor trying to be buddy-buddy but I don't know if I would say that's a scum tell just yet...

Other than AGar who am I being all buddy-buddy with?
As far as he goes; I actually like AGar - scum or not. It's a game. I'll be friendly with people I consider friends.

[ConfidAnon]

Thor - Can I be your friend? I'll make us a bracelet.

[Thor665]

Shhhh, NO, WE CAN'T BE FRIENDS STRANGE TOWN/SCUM PLAYER WHO I MUST ACT ANGRY AROUND TO PROVE I'M TOWN.

(sure we can, as long as the bracelet is manly)

[ConfidAnon]

The above is NOT a friendship bracelet. No sirreee me and Thor are not friends. *whistles nonchalantly*

(here ya go.)

[Guderian]

sims5487 wrote:I don't trust Thor trying to be buddy-buddy but I don't know if I would say that's a scum tell just yet...

sims-thor distancing/faux argument noted.

[AGar]

If you flip scum, he's next on my firing list. If you somehow flip town, I'll need to re-read him for behavior.

Cant miss this nugget from Agar. Setting up actions predicated on previous actions = scum. If X, and X is bad, does not mean we should do Y and then Z and then....

You're missing what happened here.

My scum read on sims is SOLELY based on BQ-scum right now. He's been a neutral read to me.

Ugh, I have to explain more theory, fun.

Let's say BQ is town somehow, but we lynch her anyway. My scum-read on sims is somewhat destroyed, because my scumread came from interactions with BQ. With BQ being town, her interactions with other players (her attitude towards them) is generally null. However, I won't just chalk sims up as town in that case - he'll need to be re-read.

That came because I was asked on my read on sims. Behavior is neutral. Interactions is scum.

---

AGar, I'm not sure how you can say you wagon theory is "rock solid". It's weak, at best. It's way too idealistic and perfect to be true, even if it is "logical".

Past experiences.

I've played some... 10 minis now? 5/5 on the normal and theme split. 2 scum, 8 town I believe.

I could probably go back through and find similar behavior in multiple of the 8. I've already cited a game where I've seen it.

Scum tend to pattern themselves, whether they know it or not.

If you're not on for bussing your partner, then your natural reaction is to protect them. Especially works if you (sims) are a scum PR. That's how in the newbie game Thor referenced I nailed who was who on the scum-team: When I asked them to present cases on each other, being that they were my two top suspects and I was only willing to consider one or the other, one freely attacked the other with an aggressive case. The other attacked with more flimsy reasons and didn't try to stir the pot. The latter was obviously the goon trying not to get his RB partner lynched in the event of a cop/doctor being present.

---

@Thor

I have noted PR to be a potential scum as well. His or Gud's timing fits in with the BQ panic mode that I'm seeing. Also, his posts have been quite largely skirting questions. I just have a stronger read on BQ here right now. The big indicator is the post where she votes for me. She notes me once, asking me to answer some questions for her about why I mentioned policy/meta and what benefits you have to ignoring it. But that's it. Not "OMG AGar did this, or AGar did that." Instead, just moves onto the wagon while even mentioning a suspicion of PR for "stretching what sims said." Just more preservation motivation that I see.

Also, re: the RVS thing. Policy lynches are notoriously bad for town (as I believe I've mentioned before in 1039). I've pushed some in the past that were horrid ideas, and I've generally opposed them since. I thought a possibility of catching you as opportunistic (or anyone else for that matter - but you would be specifically blowing past the whole aspect of "AGar, you just opposed a policy lynch as town," tidbit unlike others) existed. In retrospect, the FoS was highly misguided that I've seen, being that you didn't note a policy/meta aspect to it.

[Powerrox93]

Why did you want the explanation on Rhinox first - you still haven't clarified this.

Because I haven't played with Rhinoxx before but I've played with AGar before. I've nothing to on when it comes to Rhinox, but at least some when it comes to AGar

[ConfidAnon]

The more I think about it, what I've seen from sims could be newb/playstyle, but it's still not great.

You've been downgraded (sorry if it hurts your feelings).

Unvote: sims
FoS: sims

I have noted PR to be a potential scum as well. His or Gud's timing fits in with the BQ panic mode that I'm seeing. Also, his posts have been quite largely skirting questions. I just have a stronger read on BQ here right now. The big indicator is the post where she votes for me. She notes me once, asking me to answer some questions for her about why I mentioned policy/meta and what benefits you have to ignoring it. But that's it. Not "OMG AGar did this, or AGar did that." Instead, just moves onto the wagon while even mentioning a suspicion of PR for "stretching what sims said." Just more preservation motivation that I see.

I think this has merit.

Vote: Blood Queen

[Blood Queen]

V/LA for the weekend

Noted. Thank you.

[DemonHybrid]

Prodding Rhinox. Votecount coming when I get my internet back.

[Guderian]

When and why did confid switch from sims is kinda newbie-- its all right--, to bloodqueen is kinda newbie, obvious scum?

[DemonHybrid]

Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends.
J. R. R. Tolkien (1892 - 1973), The Lord Of the Rings, Book Four, Chapter One

Vote Count

Day 1 Vote Count (#7)

AGar

- 3 (Seraphim, sims5487, Blood Queen)

Guderian

- 2 (singersigner, Reckamonic)

Thor665

- 2 (Guderian, Powerrox93)

Blood Queen

- 2 (AGar, ConfidAnon)

singersigner

- 1 (Carrotcake)

Powerrox93

- 1 (Thor665)

sims5487

- 1 (Rhinox)

Not Voting

- 0 ()

With 12 players, it takes 7 to lynch and 6 for a No Lynch. Deadline is scheduled for December 21st, 2010 at 1:00:00 AM Eastern Standard Time.

Blood Queen is V/LA until Monday, December 13th at 12:00:00 PM.

You have TEN days to lynch.

[/area]

[singersigner]

Were you interested in Rhinox and not AGar or weren't you?¹ You're playing a weak semantics game and hiding behind a defense someone else provided you without even having the conviction to say whether or not you were or were not interested in AGar.²

1: After I've got the explanation of Rhinox then there was a large chance of me asking questions about AGar.
2: Well sorry because of the fact that I wasn't at home by the time CC posted that posts.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Thor665

You haven't exactly explained why you placed a vote on Thor. Same problem I have with Gud placing a vote with no reason.

By page seven, it seems Thor is more interested in making friends than anything else. Jokes, silliness and just a general style talking. Gut feeling is that he want to be the 'good guy' of the town. I get distinct scum vibes when I read his posts.

So, you placed a vote based on vibes? Seriously, I just wanted to make it clear to everyone why you and PR have no grounds to vote Thor.

These two posts are the smartest thing you've said all game, Gud.

I've decided this (plus past outbursts) simply means you're the town VI. Gud hasn't said anything smart this game.

CA, thank you for seeing the light. Hey, I like Thor, too!!!

What's your current read on Powerrox - he's flinging newbie juice from his pores right at the moment and I want to hear someone else tack a crack at wading through it to find the town/scum nougat center.

I'm on it! *dawns cape and super powers*

When and why did confid switch from sims is kinda newbie-- its all right--, to bloodqueen is kinda newbie, obvious scum?

Oh geez...more opportunism. When you finally realize Thor's an AWFUL lynch, are you setting up your cards to bus/mislynch? Let me know how that works out for you.

No but really, I'm gunna take a look back at Powerrox and BQ. I'm still not seeing how they're any more scummy than Gud right now.