Newbie 1038: Welcome to the Jungle! (Game Over!)

[BrentM]

meh, ATE is common from newbie towns.

Unvote, vote: tanstalas

As much as i think not lynhing someone who has claimed VT isn't very pro-town, as long as we are lynching scum i am happy. AT the moment i am more convinced of tanst scum than pine scum. Although I still find pine quite scummy and a "possible" buddy for tanst.

you have been convinced that pine is scum, and right before he is about to be lynched you switch??

[tanstalas]

meh, ATE is common from newbie towns.

I agree, that is why I was said "ugh"

I was pretty convinced Pine was scum, however his latest post struck me as a townie who has just given up as we have pushed him pretty hard and he has just given up.

I need to re-read this game

Unvote:

[LlamaFluff]

meh, ATE is common from newbie towns.

I agree, that is why I was said "ugh"

I was pretty convinced Pine was scum, however his latest post struck me as a townie who has just given up as we have pushed him pretty hard and he has just given up.

Ive only been telling you he has been giving off town for emotional tells for the last five pages...

@mod

- Whats going on with VOT?

[tanstalas]

Pine why are you ignoring my question, that's scummy!

Kettle calling the teapot black here...

As for my defense,

I'll respond to major concerns later

,

Still waiting... only been 3 days... you still drunk?

This is a newbie game. Being useless and/or not scum-hunting or behaving "pro-town" is never a scum-tell in newbie games. .

I was trying to be pro-town in my explanation of why a townie would lurk. You actually brought up the point in your ISO-23

Yes scum tend to lurk. But there is legitimate town reasons to unintentionally (and sometimes intentionally) lurk.

I was just explaining your post in more detail, and then you jumped on me as being anti-town in your ISO-24.

It says "fishing/

SPECULATION

", there is definitely some hinting that llama may have a PR because of the way he is lurking or that he might be scum because of it. It's not rolefishing, because he isn't asking about roles or trying to force a PR to claim, but it is role speculation, something which doesn't benefit town.

I simply included the "fishing" part because

role-fishing is a generally accepted scum-tell

and the "speculation" is in a simlilar category to it.

I know it's

not really role fishing

, but it is definitely suggesting that you believe llama to maybe be a PR.

@DP

- I want you to define 'role speculation' and 'role fishing' for me, since you say they are similar but you said I wasn't role-fishing.

I am role suspecting that your role starts with an "M" and ends with an "A" and has "afi" in between the two.

Vote: David Parker

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...
I am role suspecting that your role starts with an "M" and ends with an "A" and has "afi" in between the two.

Vote: David Parker

Statistically speaking, he has a 25% chance of having a role starting with Maf and ending with ker. Just sayin'.

[DavidParker]

meh, ATE is common from newbie towns.

I agree, that is why I was said "ugh"

I was pretty convinced Pine was scum, however his latest post struck me as a townie who has just given up as we have pushed him pretty hard and he has just given up.

I need to re-read this game

Unvote:

This is exactly why I unvoted. The "emotional" tells Llama mentioned I saw. I saw them earlier but I found his other scum tells a lot stronger. The way he finally claimed and "gave up" made him jump up in townieness.


Also, feel free to post a case and I will respond to it, or quote one, but I'm not sure what you quite expect me to respond to at this point, seeing as there is 16 pages a lot of which is people saying stuff at me and some of it is people accusing me, I don't think you want me responding to every little bit of accusation or discussion regarding my behaviour. So please be more specific with what you want me to respond to.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

...

Also, feel free to post a case and I will respond to it, or quote one, but I'm not sure what you quite expect me to respond to at this point, seeing as there is 16 pages a lot of which is people saying stuff at me and some of it is people accusing me, I don't think you want me responding to every little bit of accusation or discussion regarding my behaviour. So please be more specific with what you want me to respond to.

I am totally fine with you responding to everything. In fact, I endorse it.

Also, considering how much you pushed to lynch Pine I can't imagine a single AtE would instantly make you think otherwise.

[bv310]

VOT hasn't responded to his prod, and thus will be replaced. I'm sorry I can't do much more for you guys atm, but I have a 12-page research paper due in three days, and a virus just annihilated my first draft, so I'm not going to be around all that much for the next couple of days.

[MirrorIrorriM]

As much as i think not lynhing someone who has claimed VT isn't very pro-town, as long as we are lynching scum i am happy. AT the moment i am more convinced of tanst scum than pine scum. Although I still find pine quite scummy and a "possible" buddy for tanst.

Not doing what you say you are going to then changing your vote right as everyone is going "Eh, I guess we should lynch Pine anyway then"?
(Or at least I was doing that.)
You are making me ever-more convinced of your scummyness. Please respond to the things we are accusing/asking you about.[/quote]

Very good points. But I still feel Pine to be the scummiest here. Although my reasons for thinking that seem so distant now. I still kinda don't believe your whole "english isn't my first language" thing; however, I do not have any sort of a meta to back my suspicion, so to be fair I have to consider that as being true for the most part. I guess the only person who I have any suspicion towards besides Pine is Tanstalas, DP, and Llama.

Tanstalas is just a hunch though, I couldn't find anything when I skimmed him in iso. I'm still trying to see Llama's case about us being scumbuddies...just doesn't make much sense to me.

DP has acted strangely this game, which I think is suspicious. Although, again, his meta shows that he is really reckless even as a PR.

Llama has this whole thing about Pine not being scum, although looking in iso he only said one time that he was scummy in his 12th iso post. I would call him scum with Pine, but that is (like it has been said before) completely dependent on Pine being scum. Otherwise he was just trying to protect a newbie with heat on him, which appears to me to be the more likely choice. The main thing I don't like is his attacks against me (guess why, just guess). At first he just hinted that I might be scum, then brought it into a big assault against me; I denounced it and he disappears for a bit. Then he resurfaces, and accuses me again! Seems like someone trying to, as he claims is such a great "town" tactic, covertly manipulate people against me.

(My little rant)

Ok. Now change yourself with me and Llama with DP and you pretty much have our situation...

@Pine: Not true at all. For you maybe, but for Llama that makes no sense. Me and Llama's situation are quite different. People haven't been seriously on Llama's case like I have on yours. Oh and also people haven't been on my case nearly as much as they have on yours. If you put yourself in my shoes the situation isn't as severe.

As for who I really think is scum at this point...I just don't know. Either all my previous suspects have learned to hide their mistakes, or I was wrong. I just don't know who to believe anymore.

Also I don't really see the point of the whole "he is innocent cause he got emotional" case. It just marks me as a last ditch effort to seem good.

Oh wow this is longer then I expected. Sorry!

[DavidParker]

Because I said a single ATE made me "instantly" think otherwise?!!? I said I had been seeing some of the "emotional town tells' llama had been seeing but thought his scummy behaviour stood out more. I was getting a slightly more convinced of his "towniness" as he responded more and more, but I didn't let it show because I was waiting for that moment when he "gives up" as scum and town do it differently. If I let show I think he might be town, (if hes scum) he thinks hes sitll in with a chance and doesnt give up or keeps responding and using the same town-tells. But, if I keep forcing my case down his throat even if I start to doubt it somewhat, he eventually gives up and has to claim and then I can determine whether by the way he gave up I found him more town or scum.


And, I'd rather not drown the game in huge wall posts that don't accomplish much King. That's not my style. I hate wall posts. I'm not going to respond to everything (not to mention that would help kill our replacement's sanity )

So please, go ahead and attack me for ignoring stuff and not defending myself, but I've made it clear I will address specific concerns if you bring them up, I'm not going to respond to every little post (as your style seems to do earlier, which I stated was useless and I still believe it is) regarding me or every little accusation.


Preview Edit:oh hi mirror

[LlamaFluff]

Im going to reevaluate a bit...

Brent - Town (ignorance of stuff scum would know, push on me after I defend him)
Pine - Town (emotional tells, basis and members of wagon)
KTS - Probably Town (I like almost everything I see here, very few things make me doubt this read)
DP - Leaning Town (When I look back without a confirmation bias, he isnt as town as original, but I think town)
VOT - Null (needs replacing)
lunatic - Slight scummy (Multiple wierdness happening there, with no real town tells. The sudden shift in personality makes me on edge)
tans - Gut Scummy (Something feels wrong here, his play is different then it was when I have seen him as scum before, but that was a multi-scum game which anyone who has played them can tell you they are an entirely different entity)
Mirror - Scummy (see previous cases)

Basically refuse to lynch Brent, Pine and KTS. I am against a DP lynch, and we REALLY need a VOT replacement.

[tanstalas]

@DP

- I want you to define 'role speculation' and 'role fishing' for me, since you say they are similar but you said I wasn't role-fishing.

tans - Gut Scummy (Something feels wrong here, his play is different then it was when I have seen him as scum before, but that was a multi-scum game which anyone who has played them can tell you they are an entirely different entity)

@Llama - Well sir, you are in luck.

Out of the three completed newbie games I have played on this site - two of them had me as scum.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=14984 (replaced into)

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=14700 (from start)

And one as town

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=14792 (replaced into)

Feel free to meta me in those games if it will set your mind at ease

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Because I said a single ATE made me "instantly" think otherwise?!!? I said I had been seeing some of the "emotional town tells' llama had been seeing but thought his scummy behaviour stood out more. I was getting a slightly more convinced of his "towniness" as he responded more and more, but I didn't let it show because I was waiting for that moment when he "gives up" as scum and town do it differently. If I let show I think he might be town, (if hes scum) he thinks hes sitll in with a chance and doesnt give up or keeps responding and using the same town-tells. But, if I keep forcing my case down his throat even if I start to doubt it somewhat, he eventually gives up and has to claim and then I can determine whether by the way he gave up I found him more town or scum.
...
So please,

go ahead and attack me for ignoring stuff and not defending myself

, but I've made it clear I will address specific concerns if you bring them up, I'm not going to respond to every little post (as your style seems to do earlier, which I stated was useless and I still believe it is) regarding me or

every little accusation.

...

1. Lying as town is bad, I believe Pine got in trouble for a bit about that earlier in the thread, on page 3 or so (for me).
What is even worse is giving the reason as "I would know whether he is scum or not if we get to the point RIGHT before lynching and he gives up instead of continuing to fight and nobody hammers him before I come back

even though I didn't say I might change my mind and gave no reason for the townies to believe it a possibility so they had no reason to wait for me to talk after Pine's post instead of hammering if they thought it was suspicious.

"
2. Ok, I will attack you.
3. I find the second underlined item to be very scummy. Minimizing the arguements against you without actually having to argue them? Scummy.

4. Oh hey, here are some questions that you never answered.

Spoiler:

He contridicted himself in a single post and you only think he's slightly scummy? That seems extrordinarily scummy to me. I mean the contradiction, not your not thinking he's scummy.

There's no "blatant" contradiction.
...
I fail to see how a "major" contradiction is present in my post.
...
I'll give you all the responses/answers to questions you won't if you just ask or accuse me of something. If you find me scummy, then go ahead and vote for me, but your post doesn't seem to imply that you find me scummier than Pine or Llama.

@king: I know exactly how you read that. Me ignoring Pine and his accusations to some extent. I can provide you plenty of evidence from other games where 2 players have become the center of attention via back-and-forth arguments on day 1 and all it did was create a huge distraction. A few times both players were town between the big arguments (generally one of the two people arguing gets lynched), and occasionally one of the two was scum. But regardless, huge back-and-forth arguments between two players that aren't going anywhere have no benefit for town. I'll gladly link you to multiple games if you want me to make the effort and go dig up some of my recent games.

Also, if you didn't notice some of his questions and comments were actually a "joke". I didn't just make them into a joke and claim they were worthless, he actually made them joke responses. Sure, some of his accusations and parts of his response were serious, but a lot of it was just sarcasm and joking questions.

1. Who are you quoting with that "blatant" there?
2. Same question but with "major".
3. Do I really nead to say this one? Pine's questions didn't get answered.

...
I'm sorry. I actually chuckled to myself.

I was actually going to respond to King's post and just tear it to peaces but I can see he's trying.

(And I think he's probably town but due to different reasons to you, I just get a newbie town vibe from him). King's huge wall post was useless.

What good points did he make or solid cases???

ALL king did was quote mass posts and explain what happened in a post by post format. That's useless. He just repeated what was in all the posts and posted nothing of substantial worth.

Maybe there was 1 or 2 good points in the huge wall

, but overall it was generally useless (apologies for the harsh words king, i know you seem new but that's just my impression of your post)
Seriously, go re-read his wall (173) and tell me how much of that was anything new or actual thought out opinions. It was just a commentary of what people said. Useless. Yet, you claimed he's town because of it.
...

You almost just contradicticted yourself within your own post...I don't know why I am saying so but whatever. Also which 1 or 2 points were the good ones? Please point them out and respond/talk about them.

@Pine: Just what questions do you want me to asnwer? I'll go re-read through quickly but I'm not quite sure what you want explaining.

WHERE ARE THESE QUESTIONS!?!?!?

...

Final note: I can see llama being a potential scum-buddy to Pine (Hi llama, I did notice you buddying me, but that won't stop me going after you), he mentioned how both Pine and mirror were scummy in a post of his, then pushed a case on mirror and semi-ignored Pine (commented on his grammatical "mistake" but that's it). Now, I found this fishy simply because mirror has been obv-town to me. And even Llama's case on him seems quite forced.

...

PREVIEW EDIT: Thanks for pointing out half I what I just said Mirror . Hurry up and vote for Pine now!

1. Where did llama buddy you?
2. Mirror is "obv-town"?
3. Case on Mirror is forced, eh?

...

These were heavily implied to be questions. However, due to the fact that Pine hasn't responded to this yet and I want to hear his answer to see if THIS is what he was talking about or if he was making up the questions, I shall now save my draft and post this later, after Pine says something. Also because right now I gotta go do something.
...

[DavidParker]

I consider role fishing to be just that: "fishing" for PR's or even VT claims, as in actively trying to find out people's roles. This benefits scum for obvious reasons, finding PRs or making it easier to hunt PR's (by getting VT claims)

Role speculation is saying "i think so and so may have this role because of this", it's definitely anti-town as it doesn't benefit town to have your speculation into who is a likely PR public. If you notice someone breadcrumb cop, do you tell everyone?? Hell no. I personally hope the scum just don't notice it.


I'm not quoting anyone with those words in quotes, but merely emphasizing them to some extent, since I was too lazy to italicize them. I used them to emphasize the ambiguity of the situation, ie: you can twist my post to show how I contradicted myself, but the key points of my posts don't contradict themselves, but it could easily be twisted to seem scummy.


Pine never asked me any questions, and hardly even accused me of anything or posted a case on me. DESPITE THIS, he was saying I was ignoring him and ignoring his questions (lolwutquestions).

Llama buddies me earlier, if you didn't notice it oh well. I don't expect it to be a tell in his case, as town or scum llama would do it. I'm too lazy to dig it up since it's irrelevant anyways.

I had an early strong-town read on mirror. If he's scum he definitely knows what he's doing and using it to manipulate town by acting like this is one of his "first games". Even as a first game town he is actively involved and playing a strong game, I'll be very impressed if he is scum from his early game play. I still feel he is probably town, but less convinced than before.

Saying the case was forced was mostly because of the tone of it and just the impression I got from it not being genuine. That's just my interpretation and totally ambiguous so not something to be explained as everyone reads the tone of posts differently.

[MirrorIrorriM]

@Llama for post #285: You say "see previous cases", didn't I respond and answer all of those? You haven't responded to my defense at all, you just seem to be ignoring it.

@Tanstalas: I'll try and take you up on your offer of reading your metas. However, this could be you being scum and your playing a new strategy, which would explain your eagerness to have us meta you. However, on the same token, you could be town wanting to clear your head from suspicion. I'll try and remember to read them in the morning.

@DP: Please answer King's questions and his cases against you. You said earlier to engage in conversation that would help us to find scum, whereas you dodge all questions sent towards you by acting like they are ridiculous. I got on Pine for that earlier, and now I'm kinda ticked that your doing it too.

By the way that post of DP's is:

So why aren't you

posting in a way to get reactions/find information/analyse players

so you can find a person who is "worthy" of your vote? Wouldn't that be the pro-town thing to do, rather than throwing in the towel, saying "i have no idea, i'll just put a vote on this guy for nor reason, and that's the end of my post"

Preview Edit: Oh hey DP finally answered the questions.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

I consider role fishing to be just that: "fishing" for PR's or even VT claims, as in actively trying to find out people's roles. This benefits scum for obvious reasons, finding PRs or making it easier to hunt PR's (by getting VT claims)

Role speculation is saying "i think so and so may have this role because of this", it's definitely anti-town as it doesn't benefit town to have your speculation into who is a likely PR public. If you notice someone breadcrumb cop, do you tell everyone?? Hell no. I personally hope the scum just don't notice it.

Reasonable.

I'm not quoting anyone with those words in quotes, but merely emphasizing them to some extent, since I was too lazy to italicize them. I used them to emphasize the ambiguity of the situation, ie: you can twist my post to show how I contradicted myself, but the key points of my posts don't contradict themselves, but it could easily be twisted to seem scummy.

Please don't use quotes if you arn't quoting someone or being sarcastic, it 'causes needless confusion and is therefor anti-town.

Pine never asked me any questions, and hardly even accused me of anything or posted a case on me. DESPITE THIS, he was saying I was ignoring him and ignoring his questions (lolwutquestions).

What.

You ALREADY answered why you didn't answer those questions earlier, you gave the un-satisfactory answer that follows.

...
As for your questions and "requests" for explanations, I have no desire to get into some distracting "back and forth" with you. Especially now since you are treating this whole thing as a joke ("I am terribly sorry, like really very very sorry to be a newbie. I have no idea what town logic or what scum logic would be. Please explain that thoroughly with examples or poor newbie me will have no clue what you’re talking about." ).

Furthering a back and forth argument between the two of us will distract town and not benefit us in later scum hunting.
...

I said some stuff about that already. It was

specifically

the thing that got me to vote for you! AND YOU STILL HAVN'T ANSWERED THE QUESTIONS! YOU CONTINUE TO PUT THEM OFF AS JOKES.

The thing you ARE CURRENTLY RESPONDING TO is me telling you to actually answer the stupid questions FOR THE THIRD TIME! I directly quoted the second time in the post!

I don't even remember what the questions were! All I remember now is you refusing to answer them and dodging like crazy!

Exlamation marks! Emphasis!

Llama buddies me earlier, if you didn't notice it oh well. I don't expect it to be a tell in his case, as town or scum llama would do it. I'm too lazy to dig it up since it's irrelevant anyways.

I ask you where the buddying is, you say it happened "earlier" but it is actually irrelevant and that you are a lazy townie. Yeah.

I had an early strong-town read on mirror. If he's scum he definitely knows what he's doing and using it to manipulate town by acting like this is one of his "first games". Even as a first game town he is actively involved and playing a strong game, I'll be very impressed if he is scum from his early game play. I still feel he is probably town, but less convinced than before.

Saying the case was forced was mostly because of the tone of it and just the impression I got from it not being genuine. That's just my interpretation and totally ambiguous so not something to be explained as everyone reads the tone of posts differently.

And you give no reason other than "tone" for the Mirror case being forced, and go on to say it is because everyone reads posts differently.

...You are so scum.

[DavidParker]

You're making mountains out of molehills on your case.

[LlamaFluff]

@Llama for post #285: You say "see previous cases", didn't I respond and answer all of those? You haven't responded to my defense at all, you just seem to be ignoring it.

After a while I normally just think that I have gone back and forth enough and am comfortable with my vote. However in this case I think that I have been digging such a big tunnel that I just hit daylight in a different country.

unvote

Traveling from campus back to home tomorrow so no promises on getting another vote out then. Tuesday at worst.

[Pinewolf]

Very good points. But I still feel Pine to be the scummiest here. Although my reasons for thinking that seem so distant now. I still kinda don't believe your whole "english isn't my first language" thing; however, I do not have any sort of a meta to back my suspicion, so to be fair I have to consider that as being true for the most part.

Well. I live in the country called Slovenia and last time i checked we speak slovenian here. With english being the foreign language taught in schools. I might be one of the better english speakers around, but truthfully, the bar for that is low and i am prone to mistakes, especially grammar and such. But anything more is not important. Just thought i'd share that with you all.
If you still don't believe me, say so and i will write you a bunch of stuff in slovenian.

VOT hasn't responded to his prod, and thus will be replaced. I'm sorry I can't do much more for you guys atm, but I have a 12-page research paper due in three days, and a virus just annihilated my first draft, so I'm not going to be around all that much for the next couple of days.

Just get us VOT's replacement and we're fine on our own.


Now about other people:

Llama: Seems townie to me, nothing really to convince me otherwise.
DP: I'm torn between townie and scum with him. Like really 50-50.
Brent: Townie.
VOT: nothing.
Tanstalas: About 60-40 on him in favor of him being a townie.
Mirror: Certainly seems scummy to an extent.
King: Town
Lunatic: Should post more, as far as his current posts are concerned he seems a bit scummy.

To summarize. I think Llama, king and brent are town. The others are all a bit more so-so.

I would really like to hear your opinion on all this lunatic. And not just another 2 line post, but a real opinion. Because you're not participating enough. Though i kinda have a feeling he will have to be replaced as well...

[DavidParker]

I've actually completely forgotten about Lunatic's being in this game which makes me think he could be scum lurking while we are all going after each other. Would love to hear more from you lunatic.

Time for a prod, mod?

[MirrorIrorriM]

You're making mountains out of molehills on your case.

Then it should be no problem to answer his questions wont it?

[BrentM]

So if pine is now considered town, and I also agree he most likely is, then my llama case goes away, apologies llama.

So, now I am back to square one. Awesome

[DavidParker]

If your case on llama was entirely based on pine being scum (a bad premise to use to find scum on day 1 to begin with), why were you even making a llama case?? Cases dependent on a scum flip should wait UNTIL THE FLIP HAS OCCURRED. There was no reason to even start a llama case until you saw pine flip scum. So pine is now "considered town", do you think he's town? Think for yourself please.

@Mirror: For starters, king is having a go at me for ignoring someone else's questions. Most of which were joke points some of which were serious. I just filtered it all since it was largely a big wall post and I'm easily bored. Apparently, ignoring questions that are presented in a way that's annoying to respond to is now a HUGE scum tell. I'm also not sure what his obsession over small facts like me stating how llama was buddying me is. Sure, llama buddied me in one post, buddying happens all the time from people of different and similar alignments. I was merely observing it, and did so in a somewhat sarcastic way. Yet, he's using me being "lazy" as a scum tell now as well? Really?? Look, i'll go waste my time finding a quote which won't help us find scum or add anything to this game whatsoever. Buddying:

DP and Brent are both town.

Yay! Fun! Now there's the buddying, how did that help you!??!?! or me??!?! or anyone!??! oh. wait.

As for the case on mirror, the early game case on him had no merit whatsoever, recent cases have been stronger and I can see why llama believes him to be scum even if I don't agree with it at this point. The way Pine retaliated to mirror's case on him was what was forced. To me it was like this, Pine gets attacked and called scummy so decides he has to retaliate and go after the person who attacked him so he just made up any old case he could find (hence the case was forced), that was my interpretation of the early game (page 5-7ish) attacks on pine/mirror etc. Pine's reasoning for voting mirror were just bleh.

[MirrorIrorriM]

On the DP wagon: Remember when you vote DP for not answering questions and playing so aggressively that he ALWAYS plays like that in every game I have looked at that he is in. Although he is nearly on equal levels with my suspicion as Pine, he has a meta to back his case of that just being his playstyle; no matter how much I or anyone dislikes it.

@DP: Even if you find questions to be ridiculous and you deem them "unworthy" to be answered. Please do so anyways! Sometimes people make quite reasonable requests and your ignoring of it makes so we cant scumhunt as well.

[MirrorIrorriM]

On the DP wagon: Remember when you vote DP for not answering questions and playing so aggressively that he ALWAYS plays like that in every game I have looked at that he is in. Although he is nearly on equal levels with my suspicion as Pine, he has a meta to back his case of that just being his playstyle;

no matter how much I or anyone dislikes it.

@DP: Even if you find questions to be ridiculous and you deem them "unworthy" to be answered. Please do so anyways! Sometimes people make quite reasonable requests and your ignoring of it makes so we cant scumhunt as well.

To clear up the underlined area (grammar was a little weird). "No matter how much I or anyone else dislikes his playstyle."