Objection Redux - It's all over bar the shouting!

[UncertainKitten]

Alternate theory: Rhinox was a fucking moron.

I really have no idea why you're voting me

this

time Jahudo.

[Gammagooey]

Notttt really seeing how the stronger vote on UK from Rhinoz compared to the weak one and the easy hop on hop off from vezok means more likely UK-scum and less likely Vezok-scum instead of the other way around. Between the two I think vezok is more likely for pretty much that + Fate sheeping instead of actually doing shit himself and the Elli shenanigans.

A pretty decent part of my Socio suspicion was based on Elli flipping scum and Socio helping to lynch magnus instead of him- Since that didn't happen the biggest things against him from my POV are playing similarly to MOHO and the pushing on mangus when there were better lynches after mangus' PR claim.

What I think needs to happen is this-
DT lynch to avoid losing today and force scum to narrow shit down
Massclaim tommorrow
And go on everything from there.

[AlmasterGM]

Vote: sociopath

[SocioPath]

pushing on mangus when there were better lynches after mangus' PR claim.

Better lynches?
Not from my perspective.
Mags was totally playing completely differently from what I knew of him, and he even admitted as such.
I'm not going to drop my case when the lynchee themselves claims that I was of sound mind.
He was off all game.
Even compared to the first version of this game where he was town.

So don't try and preach to me that there were "better lynches".

[Gammagooey]

Sigh Socio.

The point is that Elli was a better lynch than magnus for both Elli's play and magnus's PR claim, they didn't really make sense as scum together, and you pushed on the PR claim instead of being willing to change your mind, as well as saying that if Elli was scum you'd still lynch magnus next even though it would mean Elli was playing not only BADLY but wasn't even trying to ensure that any of his scumteam would be alive after the next day.

[Jahudo]

@people that have been saying it, what makes this Socio's scum game as opposed to his town game?

Is it activity related, aggressive/conservative related, use of capital letters?

[UncertainKitten]

I second that motion. I STILL don't get the socio case.

You know what else I don't get? Why vezok still is alive.

[Gammagooey]

The important things from MOHO (http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 76&start=0) are his general lack of effort until late-game when he starts being a major suspect and him diffusing parts of the case on himself there by mocking the case-makers to the point of making a case on himself just to go through it with as much sarcasm as possible.

[SocioPath]

The important things from MOHO (http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 76&start=0) are his general lack of effort until late-game when he starts being a major suspect and him diffusing parts of the case on himself there by mocking the case-makers to the point of making a case on himself just to go through it with as much sarcasm as possible.

Heh.

Thats cool and all, but then there is the fact that is generally how I play the game.
The apparent "lack of effort" (MEANING: "LESS WORDY") is how I go about large games when more people are still kicking.
Minis aren't generally like that at all.
And when large games get to sub-mini size, they tend to go that route too.

[AlmasterGM]

Actually, I might be changing my mind about Socio. The fact that he has only voted for (dead) townies thus far makes me think he is town. If he was scum, he would have bussed by now. Then again, though, I'm going all of how he plays in minis and he just said he plays differently in larges, soooo not sure if that equates. For the moment, I'll backburner him.

Unvote.

Vezok is simultaneously screaming scum and mislynch. I also think there is one scum between UK and Jahudo.

I will research this more and return with my final opinion.

[AlmasterGM]

Also, the Socio point is ESPECIALLY true given there was a perfect target for bussage: Rhinox.

[SocioPath]

Also, the Socio point is ESPECIALLY true given there was a perfect target for bussage: Rhinox.

HEY NOW.
I WOULD HAVE VOTED HIM.

[Jahudo]

I see Socio's counter-point about that being a bigger game so its not really comparable for how involved you are.
But...

I will only vote for VV/Rhino/Mango for the remainder of today.
So spin that wheel and decide who shall burn.

It looks like he would have voted Rhinox if there was ever a wagon on him day 1. The wagons just happened to be VV and Mango, and he said in that quote that he'd follow the group for one of those 3 people.

[Faraday]

Vote count 4.2
Vezokpiraka (1)

UncertainKitten

UncertainKitten(1)

Jahudo

Not voting (5):

AlmasterGM, Sociopath, GammaGooey, Vezokpiraka, DTMaster

With 7 alive it takes 4to lynch. Deadline's the 30th @ 8pm GMT[/i]

[AlmasterGM]

Mod can we get a prod on vezok please

[vezokpiraka]

Hey. I am V/LA.

But I found some internet connection and I will try to post here.

Why didn't I vote UK?

unvote
vote UK

[UncertainKitten]

Oh, that's ~*~amazing~*~ vezok. Do you even have reasoning? Or is it just because I voted you for being the scum you are?

PATHETIC!

[AlmasterGM]

vote: vezok

[SocioPath]

This is an interesting turn of events.

[DTMaster]

Sorry been away. I'll do a full reread when I get home from retail hell at Christmas time. I'll have responses to the Almaster. I also will announce though in my reads:

Jahudo has been a person of interest with Almaster, and this development just made me realize something (they both can't be scum together).
Vezok remains a person a interest.
NK wifom sez SP could be clear.

That is all.

[UncertainKitten]

Oh how CUTE~. Vezok, in his infinite stupidity, neighborized me because he thought I'd "scum slip" in his topic. How utterly dicktarded can you be?

[Jahudo]

Can we all restate our reasons for voting? (you too vezok!)


My new and updated super duper case on UK:

1) Rhinox made a list of 5 suspects, and I think the odds are good he would use a big list to hide a scumbuddy in. VV and MO are town, Vezok and UK are left.

2) Rhinox made a case for UK that looked weak, like he wasn't worried if his reasons would fall through and he couldn't backup an argument.

UK is also scummy. Starting out by voting the mod is just a RVS cop out.

UK always votes mod. He's played with her and could have known this.

Iso 1: "Because Vi is a terrible wagon and shouldn't happen." - similar early response to the Vi wagon as me only UK takes it a step farther and calls it terrible.

He's trying to downplay himself but is also making a suspicion on her that he wouldn't push without looking like a hypocrit. So his sentence is fluff.

Iso 3: "Because Vi is a lot more valuable than 50% of you put together, as town or scum. She will not be lynched today." - this is pretty scummy if Vi is scum she is not more valuable than anyone. "I'm fine with lynching her any day after though." - why is it not ok to lynch Vi D1 but ok any other day, all else being equal? Also, still voting the mod aka not voting anyone.

More of the same. He's making a wall of text on UK but not saying anything he can push very far. I think that's his intention, to make a show of pushing her.

Iso 4: "@PZ: Well, you see, someone has to *say* she won't be lynched today or the magic doesn't work. And even if she's scum we can find her stupider scum buddies that out her as scum first." - this seems like backpedaling - in iso 3 she was giving actual reasons for not lynching Vi, and now she's just doing it because thats the "due process" or something but then also gives another real attempt at a reason that doesn't make sense to me. Why does it matter which scum we lynch first? Wouldn't it make sense to lynch the smarter/more dangerous scum first?

I don't think Rhinox has a point here either. UK isn't backtracking from an alignment stance on Vi, since she had none. She isn't backtracking from her "lynch anyone other than Vi" stance either.

Rhinox is just saying the same thing over again without pressing UK on why she is scum for doing this "scummy thing". He's not trying to build a case on her.

...So basically those last 3 posts UK doesn't see the case and is trying to defend VV not by explaining why VV is town but by going after fate for not being succinct or convincing enough, and then after fate lays it out in the whole 1, 2, 3 list, UK suddenly sees the light. And the best part is this all happened in only a couple hours. It just seems fake.

He downplays this suspicion in the same post by basically agreeing that VV is either his first or second favorite wagon.

3) As far as her own play goes, I think her opinions and actions have been pretty similar to alot of people. Push VV, push magnus, push Elli, push vezok. Be cool with Vi and Fate.

And there have been times when she's flip-flopped:

Hmm...to be honest, with the Rhinox flip, I can't see mango scum.

HOWEVER, I WILL STATE THAT I AM NOT AGAINST A MANGO LYNCH AT THIS POINT, AND IN FACT WILL VOTE HIM NOW SINCE SPYREX IS A TERRIBLE LYNCH!

Unvote, Vote Mango

Instead of remained on an unpopular stance. She avoided a vote on PZ even though she argued back and forth with him strongly, almost as if she was testing the waters for support. She avoided directly questioning Spyrex despite a vote on him, which makes her prerequisites for placing a vote seem skewed when compared to how she handled PZ and Rhinox. In this case she could just fear Spyrex knocking her down, but she wanted to test the conspiracy waters over Spy-SK.

But most importantly she didn't take a stronger position (IE: vote) with Rhinox. And like Rhinox was with her, I don't think she wanted to.

[SocioPath]

I'd vote AGM before UK, but UK isn't terrible.

[AlmasterGM]

what wrongs hath I committed that make me voteage worthy?

[Gammagooey]

Socio not bussing as a tell is pretty bleh but DT is right that Socio killing SpyreX (and to a lesser degree Fate) wouldn't be his optimal kills by a longshot.

Between the voters/votees Vezok stands out for his Elli madness and UK vote out of nowhere.

Jah's last part of his case is good but Vezok still makes more sense to me as scum with Rhinox with the easier vote on him and the quick hop off, and the middle part of it looks a lot more like a case against Rhinoz instead of UK.