Objection Redux - It's all over bar the shouting!

[UncertainKitten]

Well, the problem, Jahudo, with your last point, which is really the only one I can answer since you're just manipulating shit to make yourself look right on the rest of it, is the fact that apparently townies can NEVER change their mind in your world. Whereas it was PRETTY OBVIOUS what was convincing me on mango.

So, please, create a real case, and throw away the nonsensical bullshit.

YOU DON'T HAVE JACK SHIT ON ME

Oh, and the last part. You do realize VV was scummier, right? Rhinox was p. bad too, but...you know...I DO only have one vote.

[Jahudo]

This isn't about changing your mind because they are completely separate points. You said Rhinox and Magnus didn't look like buddies. Fate said Magnus did scummy stuff on his own, which I assume you blanket agreed with at that point. You ignore your doubt and vote Magnus without any other comment (like why you don't think Spy or DTM is a better play at that point).

Nothing changed to make Magnus more likely scum with Rhinox did it? So you just push ignore part of your reasoning when you see a wagon that's close to a lynch. Too eager, even if you didn't mean to hammer.

I saw this same attitude when you acted like Rhinox was your top suspect. You never voted for him. You stayed on VV because other people wanted it that way. Scum would be happy to let town lead them on mislynches. Town would not so easily let unknowns lead them when they have doubts.

[Faraday]

Vote count 4.3
Vezokpiraka (2)

UncertainKitten, AlmasterGM

UncertainKitten(2)

Jahudo, Veokpiraka

Not voting (3):

Sociopath, GammaGooey,DTMaster

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch. Deadline's the 30th @ 8pm GMT[/i]

[UncertainKitten]

You really aren't worth arguing with Jahudo. Your logic is utter shit and you know it.

[Jahudo]

how so? You haven't made an actual counter-point to my case. You are just dismissing it as nonsense.

[UncertainKitten]

I already told you why. You're basically saying I'm not allowed to change my mind. Which is utter bullshit.

So, no. If you can't UNDERSTAND that, it's a waste of time arguing.

[Jahudo]

I never said changing your mind is a scumtell, end of story.

My issue is that there are too many parts of your "change of mind" that aren't on the record, so its hard to assume that everything looks like a natural and good-natured townie decision.

When you decided to vote magnus:

- Why did you ignore your own feeling that Magnus was not connected with Rhinox?
- Why did you not resolve any feelings that Spy and/or DTM was the better play today?

Too many things left unsaid. Your decision to vote was rash, while your actions leading up to it were not. I do not think that is normal behavior.

[UncertainKitten]

I do not think you have any idea what the hell you're talking about. Because you're wrong, and anyone who LOOKS at the situation can see how wrong you are. So, again, this is a waste of time.

[Jahudo]

Why can't you answer the questions I just asked?

[UncertainKitten]

Ah, fuck, you did ask questions, sorry, missed them. I thought they were statements.

For the first, I felt his scumminess overcame that at this point. Things were brought to light.

I don't understand the second question. Reiterate it.

P Edit: That was actually pretty hilarious as I JUST noticed the questions and typed a response before you pushed it :V.

[Jahudo]

Your reasons for finding Magnus scummy on day 2 were also vague. At first you had a hard time understanding Fate's drunk talk, but you do realize that Magnus is saying stuff about Fate that you don't agree with. You don't say that anything is specifically scummy however. So I still can't pinpoint what made Magnus a better lynch for you than Ellibereth.

The second question is about other people you were considering better lynches at the time. Actually forget the part about Spyrex, because you closed that here:

Well, regardless, you aren't the play today. Elli is starting to become more impressive too. DT also has an alibi at least, though he still might be the play.

Did you think DTM might have been a better play around the time you voted magnus?

[UncertainKitten]

It really depended on whether he'd actually be lynched. He would not be a good play for catching scum, but it WOULD buy us a day, which is why it was being bandied about in the first place.

I think what sold me is the fact Mango had been lurking and only popping in to defend himself. How *convenient* is that?

[Jahudo]

I see your point about DTM. Sometime after the DTM claim you said PZ was probably playing bad town.

And you did mention Magnus' lurking:

But, regardless, it DOES seem like you've not been doing a whole lot today until ~*~suddenly~*~ you have to defend yourself.

But that came 3 posts before you voted him. Were you waiting for something?

Also, we need moar of everybody else. Vezok and Socio need to be more helpful and say explain what's on their minds.

[UncertainKitten]

Huh, really? I thought that was the last point. Well, in that case, it was Socio's points that sold me, though I wanted to probe Fate and thought I could still do it while voting mango. The convenient lurking is what caused me to revisit mango despite the Rhinox evidence. Clearly that was a mistake.

[DTMaster]

Sorryz, but I'm at work. But an issue came up. Spy Spy berated UK to vote on the M_O wagon in this discussion. UK wanted to push for a VV, but POWARFUL WIZARDS suggested otherwise. That said very few people agreed with my POWARFUL LAWYERS bloc where M_O was seen as town (e.g. Eli).

I'm going to need to cross check Jahudo's stance with M_O and VV's with M_O.

[SocioPath]

Vezok and Socio need to be more helpful and say explain what's on their minds.

Whats on MY MIND?

Well, firstly, vezo is an easy lynch/mislynch for every game I've ever seen.
Vezo has been -ability- confirmed.
So I don't see the pushes on vezo to be town based.

AGM is all wonky.
Seems to be making cases where he can, pulling them out of his ass.
Although to his credit, if what he pulls out of his ass happens to be shit, he'll flush it.

UK seems to be using the brute force method of defending herself.
Be as intimidating as one can to minimize a logical back and forth flow to discussions.

Too few players left in this game to be dropping votes all around for my liking.

Those have been my current thoughts.

[UncertainKitten]

Socio: Why is vezok's ability confirmation making him town?

Can you explain why vezok is town? Because I'm pretty sure I can disprove you quite easily in just about any case.

Interesting you'd defend him, but not actually defend him though. I DO wonder who I should vote when vezok flips scum~

[Jahudo]

Do you think vezok's playing like a newbie scum?

There was no explanation why Vezok went from finding Elli pretty townie, to asking to hammer. But there was also no explanation why he found Elli townie to begin with. So not only is it hard to determine if his change of mind was natural, but its hard to determine if his first read made sense from a townie perspective at that time.

He called UK scummy but used his ability on UK to become neighbors. Seems irrational but I have one theory as to why he'd do it. I'm hoping he can explain this stuff now.

[DTMaster]

1. I'm confused Jahudo. Are you calling Vezok scum or UK? Because in this last post it reads like a scum argument against Vezok. It seems stronger to your case against UK, especially since you confirmed the timing of the the M_O hammer/vote to flow naturally after my claim. Plus UK claimed suspicion of M_O earlier, and pushed for the Vezok wagon all day before Spyrex berated her to switch wagons.

If you don't have an explanation on Vezok's play and only theories, why aren't you multitasking and pushing on both UK and Vezok? Like that last post is super passive for someone who has suspicion on Vezok with a town read on him.

You say you hope Vezok explains him self. You're not questioning him like you are with UK. This is a passive form of attack and I dislike it.

2. Almaster I have words for you. But I have 1 more 8 hour shift sooooo words will come :<.

3. Rereads will come.

[UncertainKitten]

I think vezok ALWAYS plays like newbie X. X being his alignment. So I think he's playing idiotic scum. Please, tell me why he ISN'T scum! NO ONE HAS ANSWERED THIS!

I ALSO told you all why vezok CLAIMS he neighborized me. Supposedly I was going to ~*~slip~*~.

[Jahudo]

I have absolutely no logical suspicion on Vezok. 0 Percent. I have much more on UK.

Vezok is null city. I can't trace if his switch on Elli makes sense because I can't trace his original stance on Elli. Its a different kind of playstyle he's been doing that I realized sometime day 1 I can't read. I'm now saying its not reliable to call him scummy for just looking/acting odd.

I'm treating him differently because I already tried attacking him day 1 and hit a brick wall. Everything he's done could have a reasonable townie explanation (the Fate sheeping, the lack of explained cases, the vote hops) but because of his playstyle I don't know how to find that out. I'm trying a different approach now.

[UncertainKitten]

That's funny. Usually when people provide no information, contradict themselves in a scummy manner, that is, contradict themselves in such a way that benefits them as scum, say, changing reads so that they can sheep people despite making different reads just a few posts before...

THAT MAKES THEM SCUMMY

Why are you defending Vezok?

[Jahudo]

Part Fate's read, part my past games that seem similar to this vezok situation.

BTW, what benefit did Vezok have to asking if he could hammer Elli? The hammer was already coming, wasn't it?

[UncertainKitten]

So he could look ~*~proactive~*~. That one's fairly easy, don't you think?

[SocioPath]

I ALSO told you all why vezok CLAIMS he neighborized me. Supposedly I was going to ~*~slip~*~.

That seems legit given a vezok point of view.