Cyclic Experimentation Set x01 - [Game Over]

[themanhimself]

Hm... a thought occurs. Could we perhaps use bad abilities (like the treestump) to test possible mafia partners? Mafia can't pass to mafia of the same faction. So if suspicion arises that X and Y are mafia together, we could test the theory by passing the treestump to X and telling them to pass it to Y. If random person Z gets the treestump ability, then X and Y are mafia together (or Z is lying, which in the treestump's case, can be tested by having them vote someone). Notes: fails epically if mafia happen to have a bus driving ability.

Acutually, come to think of it, if there is an ability that affects the way abilities are passed (i.e. bus driving) it could be bad early and late on, and something like that is decently likely to be present considering how well it would fit with the mechanic.

let me say that MoI's confirmation strategy is the best town strategy for a game like this.

secondly, i wonder why you guys are all worried about mafia having a bus driver or roleblocking ability. abilities are passed each night, so even if they have such an ability one night, they won't have it again the next night. so in the case of the treestump: do what implosion suggested, but if a town player gets a bus driver ability and the stump wasn't passed to player Y, then simply rinse and repeat the next night.

MOI's strategy is great for helping to eliminate scumlinks but I think the combination of these two principles is just as powerful. The two together should be fairly useful.

lul allyourbasearebelongtous.

VOTE: themanhimself

OMGUS

!~

Having played whith chkflip several times, this and his second post both seem a little out of character and it raises suspicions.

Right now I really don't like popsofctown mostly because his comment about feeling 'strawmanned' when there exactly 0 people voting him or even implying that he's scummy. This seems a little paranoid to me when all people are doing are questioning his strategies.

VOTE: popsofctown

PS Sorry for the lurking, I was expecting really low activity being early on day one and a holiday so I didn't check for a day or two, won't happen again.

[EtherealCookie]

All right. If we're to go with MoIs plan, we cannot remove all the anti-town roles, yes? So, we should stop discussing whether or not the tree stump is anti-town, as it's completely useless doing so, whatever your opinion might be on the matter.
As for Parama's "scumslip," I can see where you're coming from, He hasn't really contributed much, and he didn't bother to clarify how his ability truly worked. The mod had to tell him, instead of him asking. My vote'll stay, but purely because I don't see anything more scummy at the moment.

[muh316]

FFFFFFFF
I'm gone for school and I'm dead now. I was supposed to pass it by 120 which happened while I was in school.

I really don't like Parama's constant posting. He wants me dead and posting sentence by sentence is the only way he can achieve that.

I still can't believe more than 70 posts were posted in such a short time period.

[Parama]

I post lots always. How is posting a lot scummy?

[Parama]

And no "BAH GO TOWN" or anything? Hehehe.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The lesson to learn? Don't leave something potentially dangerous in your possession when you could easily pass it safely.

Muh, might as well fess up. Are you scum?

[muh316]

I'm just saying that instead of making a long post you just post small bits. If you could put that together then there would be less posts and a chance for me to pass it on.


One question, why did you choose me to pass it to?

[WrathChild]

I'm going to be off work for a while, but I'll still check in nightly. Just expect lower post volume from me.

So what's the term for this again?
I'm gonna be V/LA for the Holidays as well.

[WrathChild]

I'm just saying that instead of making a long post you just post small bits. If you could put that together then there would be less posts and a chance for me to pass it on.


One question, why did you choose me to pass it to?

Since there's no Good Luck Town, or player-reveal of alignment I'm gonna speculate scum.

[Parama]

I'm just saying that instead of making a long post you just post small bits. If you could put that together then there would be less posts and a chance for me to pass it on.


One question, why did you choose me to pass it to?

I HATE WALLS
I make them sometimes but I have played in games that were ruined by constant wall posting.

I passed it to you because you didn't seem like you actually cared what was going on in-thread in your first post - "Durrr y r we claimin? tiem 2 rvs lololol"

[themanhimself]

Sooooooooooo........ seems like a scum hit? Nice job parama

[implosion]

Not sure if this has been asked yet or if I just missed something, but:

Mod: if a person is passed an ability on the night that they die, what happens to the ability?

Based on the action resolution order, the ability would be passed to a dead person.

@Anyone who said I'm not confirmed town for having an ability, I never said I was. If everyone with an ability was confirmed town, this would be too easy.

@RedCoyote, can you give a situation in which my ability isn't anti-town? Even having someone voteless and unlynchable in general is bad. It narrows down the town's options and creates a player that won't be able to contribute as effectively.

Also, since I never actually voiced approval, MoI's plan sounds good.

Currently I'm not liking Muh, a couple of posts and no content; I'm also not liking quadz based on his "scumslip" vote on paramas nulltell.

I'm not too keen on the idea of a massclaim early on, however removing anti-town abilities early on could prove beneficial then the scum would be left guessing as to what is in game and where...

Also the spud has a "time limit" of X amount of posts for those who missed it... I would guess that the trigger is around 150~250 posts.

Oh and something about this post just didn't sit well with me...

Agreed. It looks like a lot of parroting of everything that's already been said, and it also looks kind of forced (i.e. he had to give opinions, but these opinions don't look real).

FoS AntB

I think he's implying more along the lines of a town-controlled "you pass it to Y or face the consequences".

And by angeling it that way, X gets a chance of saying why he didn't passed it to Y in his defense-speech

If the passer tries to give excuses, we simply lynch them. If they say they tried to pass the ability but it failed, we ask everyone if they've seen an ability that could affect the transfer. If they just give some other random excuse, we lynch them on the spot.

Oh, and either a scum died or a very questionable townie who considered "someone just gave me the bomb" a real post died, so the result of the bomb is pretty good.

[AntB]

@MoL
Don't Like != "OMG scum *vote*

@Implosion
Voicing an opinion is parroting, noted. In that case there are several parrots in my flock. Also, those are my genuine opinions at that point in the game.

@All
If muh flips scum, parama is obvitown imo, I reckon theres about a 99% chance of that right now.

[q21]

giving the antitown roles to the most antitown player is like giving the Joker a tank. (it isn't though.)

Yes it is.

You give the scummiest player roles that can hurt the town, and he's GOING TO USE THEM TO HURT THE TOWN. Very simple. Yes, it means we can get rid of all of them in one fell swoop, but that's assuming that NONE of the scum got a roleblock, a doctor, a redirector, or anything of that ilk, which I find unlikely.

I do think that getting rid of anti-town roles, including the treestump, is a good idea (obviously); however, I definitely feel it's too risky to attach all the anti-town roles to one player who we find scummy. It might work if we give it to a person who we can agree is NOT mafia, because they wouldn't use it on the town. Of course, that opens up a whole other host of issues. However, I think we should deal with those anti-town roles later; we need to start off with just plain old scumhunting. I can't think of a reason to do anything differently than we would in a normal mafia game, barring some pretty interesting role stuff.

PREVIEW EDIT: I like Magna's idea, with the cycle of confirmation. It seems intelligent, certainly.

No. I was thinking about this but then realized that scum would have no time to use their ability. After Night 1 ends, they'd have the ability passed to them. Day 2, we lynch the player. Problem solved, ability is out of play as the player is now dead, N2 never commenced for him, so he could never use his abilities, excluding the possibility of them being day abilities. (We probably shouldn't pass those on.) Therefore, we SHOULD pass it onto a scummy player, then lynch him the next day.

You're not paying attention. You know how I know you're not paying attention? The whole discussion about getting rid of anti town roles was started by the only anti town role we know anything about so far... a role which makes the person holding it unlynchable.

Hello everyone.

Based on my initial readthrough the idea of passing antitown roles to someone scummy seems like a fairly good idea. Parama's hot potato thing is ...rather interesting.

Also, my role says something about a virus being unleashed. Should I fullclaim?

Also

Vote: Quadz08

. Early scummy vibes from him on that terrible "scumslip" catch, not to mention one on a claimed fairly powerful PR.

You're also not paying attention. Your point here is nullified by the fact when you made this post Parama had, quite publicly, announced that he no longer had the role anyway, having passed the bomb to muh. Not to mention the fact that having a role, even a powerful townie one, isn't evidence of towniness in this game from what I can tell. I think you're either trying to defend Parama (a theory which may become more viable after we see a potential muh flip) or you're trying to force suspicion on quadz.

I also have an issue with your jump to wrathchild. When you vote quadz is looks like you're taking that vote fairly seriously, then you vote wrathchild for not revoting after he unvoted. It's a weak reason for a vote anyway and an even moreso as a reason to change your vote. Especially with nothing from quadz in between to explain a potential lessening of suspicion. My thought is that you didn't like that your quadz vote had gotten attention from MoI..

Unvote, Vote diddin.

[muh316]

I'm seriously town. Im about to die right now. Parama is scum I guarantee it.

[quadz08]

If muh flips scum, parama is obvitown imo, I reckon theres about a 99% chance of that right now.

Uhhhhhh.... why? Muh was an easy target for the potato, regardless of Parama's alignment.

[popsofctown]

Not sure if this has been asked yet or if I just missed something, but:

Mod: if a person is passed an ability on the night that they die, what happens to the ability?

Based on the action resolution order, the ability would be passed to a dead person.

@Anyone who said I'm not confirmed town for having an ability, I never said I was. If everyone with an ability was confirmed town, this would be too easy.

@RedCoyote, can you give a situation in which my ability isn't anti-town? Even having someone voteless and unlynchable in general is bad. It narrows down the town's options and creates a player that won't be able to contribute as effectively.

Also, since I never actually voiced approval, MoI's plan sounds good.

Currently I'm not liking Muh, a couple of posts and no content; I'm also not liking quadz based on his "scumslip" vote on paramas nulltell.

I'm not too keen on the idea of a massclaim early on, however removing anti-town abilities early on could prove beneficial then the scum would be left guessing as to what is in game and where...

Also the spud has a "time limit" of X amount of posts for those who missed it... I would guess that the trigger is around 150~250 posts.

Oh and something about this post just didn't sit well with me...

Agreed. It looks like a lot of parroting of everything that's already been said, and it also looks kind of forced (i.e. he had to give opinions, but these opinions don't look real).

FoS AntB

I think he's implying more along the lines of a town-controlled "you pass it to Y or face the consequences".

And by angeling it that way, X gets a chance of saying why he didn't passed it to Y in his defense-speech

If the passer tries to give excuses, we simply lynch them. If they say they tried to pass the ability but it failed, we ask everyone if they've seen an ability that could affect the transfer. If they just give some other random excuse, we lynch them on the spot.

Oh, and either a scum died or a very questionable townie who considered "someone just gave me the bomb" a real post died, so the result of the bomb is pretty good.

The ability goes to Disneyland. It's possible there are ways to get it to come back from Disneyland and it is possible that there are no ways, Disneyland is so much fun you know.

That's a mod paraphrase. I doubt it's very easy to get back, and I want this Treestump ability out of the town.

I don't see how Parama is a lock for town if muh is scum. The thinking might have been, you know, "if this guy doesn't have the composure to pass a post potato, is he really gonna make it to endgame?"
It's WIFOM for whether doing this makes him look town, but I think it's definitely in those middling ranges where you don't make decisions based on the guts and moxie it would take to play the WIFOM. (day 1 wagonning a partner from the dust and orchestrating his lynch on your own, for example).

But of course, it's more of a towntell than a scumtell.


@themanhimself: I'm not paranoid, I'm indignant. If I see a fallacious argument tactic, I'm not gonna let it slide. Do you disagree that I was strawmanned? If you compare my post to his "refutation" I don't think you can.

I might be unfamiliar with the connotations of "strawman" but I'm just using the denotation; my argument was way oversimplified by his response. Not playing the victim here.

[Parama]

You can out-WIFOM yourself to oblivion, but remember Occam's Razor.

[AntB]

@quadz
Why would scum bomb scum like that?

P-EDIT:
Nailed by popsofctown

@popsofctown and themanhimself
Best way to illustrate strawman arguments is person A and B are debating, A says beer laws should be relaxed, B strawmans by saying that relaxing laws on intoxicants would be too detrimental. Beer is a specific, intoxicants is a broader range of substances and as such, the argument is taken out of its initial context and eliminated by means of over-exaggeration. I fail to see both sides. Will review now.

P-O-P-EDIT:
From what I understand Occams Razor is the logical aspect against Strawman'ings exaggeration.

[AntB]

quick review

@popsofctown
There was no comment or question aimed directly at you between your #107 and #110, given there was nearly an hour between the two posts it strkes me as odd. Your previous post #99 also does not hint at feeling strawmanned either, despite the only response after being "I'm ignoring you"

[quadz08]

Ummm... to make himself look town? To get rid of a scumteam member he might think could do more harm than good to the scum? There's plenty of reasons, Ant. Not difficult.

[curiouskarmadog]

I actually see where Pops is coming from. I've seen interactions with role and scum-alignment cause this sort of confussion, which resulted in a delay of clarification, which is usually suspiciously defined. However, I'm not sure it's quite lynch worthy, just note worthy at the moment. I need to go back and check what the Virus is supposed to do.

I agree with the MoI plan and will definately be happy to announce all/any passing I do.

I also think the fact that the Treestump is testable during the day could be a useful scum hunting tool, but we need to figure out how many disruption roles we have first, meaning that targets should not be discussed prior to handoff, only after... for now.

EBWOP:

UNVOTE

my RVS vote.

Unvoting without a revote, ick.

unvote, Vote: WrathChild

Magna, I think this hot potato role is fairly powerful, do you not? I'm also getting town vibes from Parama, even more than usual in this game.

vote diddin

I was in an invitational and I was lynched day 1 because scum pushed this EXACT case...what people failed to realize was that I kept track of the lynches I was on for stat purposes....or maybe he just doesnt want to vote for the sake of voting....this is a bad vote.

And no "BAH GO TOWN" or anything? Hehehe.

are you expecting him to say "go town"?

[Parama]

Ummm... to make himself look town? To get rid of a scumteam member he might think could do more harm than good to the scum? There's plenty of reasons, Ant. Not difficult.

But the simplest one - Parama is town bombing muhscum - is the simplest one.

Now for some counter-WIFOM:
1. If I was scum, why would I publicly claim that I have a bomb? Couldn't I just keep it silent and quietly pass it to a lurker?
2. If I was scum, why wouldn't I pass the bomb ASAP? I could've passed it in the pre-game, for crying out loud. But I held it until I saw someone ping my scumdar.

This is exactly what you're doing, quadz, so deal with it. (see my sig thx in advance)

[themanhimself]

But the simplest one - Parama is town bombing muhscum - is the simplest one.

Yeah, the only evidence for Parama being scum if Muh flips scum would be complete WIFOM. It would be like assuming a player was the godfather because he turned up innocent in an investigation.

That said, now that Muh is (presumably) doomed, and still insisting that he's town, I'm inclined to believe him. That does make Parama seem more suspicious just for the virtue of being somewhat responsible for a town death. I say somewhat because Muh knew that he had a time limit and presumably had time to pass the potato (he posted after receiving it) but didn't, that makes Muh pretty much responsible for his own death the way I see it. I'm not getting much of a read off of Parama for this whole situation honestly. I mean, he had to pass the potato to someone to keep from getting bombed, protecting yourself is both a town and scum trait so I don't really see it advancing us at all.

@Parama, did your PM say whether or not the bomb going off would end the day?

[EtherealCookie]

You're not paying attention. You know how I know you're not paying attention? The whole discussion about getting rid of anti town roles was started by the only anti town role we know anything about so far... a role which makes the person holding it unlynchable.

I never agreed that the stump was anti-town. It isn't important enough to worry about until the end, as lylo isn't going to happen for quite a long time, now is it? But thanks for being a pompous ass. It's not as if there might be any other anti-town abilities floating about. And once again, why are we even discussing this? Have we not agreed to MoI's plan?

You're also not paying attention. Your point here is nullified by the fact when you made this post Parama had, quite publicly, announced that he no longer had the role anyway, having passed the bomb to muh. Not to mention the fact that having a role, even a powerful townie one, isn't evidence of towniness in this game from what I can tell. I think you're either trying to defend Parama (a theory which may become more viable after we see a potential muh flip) or you're trying to force suspicion on quadz.

Uhh.
What difference does it make if Parama had passed it? The ability still came from him. Therefore, I see no problem with him referring to it as Parama's ability. Null point.

However, I do agree with everything that follows. A question for you, Diddin.

I'm also getting town vibes from Parama, even more than usual in this game.

Why do you feel this way? Throwing out that you get town feelings from someone and not explaining seems scummy to me. You're just trying to appear as if you're contributing to town, when you're actually not at all.

It's scummy because you're sitting on the fence and not taking a strong enough stance on anybody to vote them.

Uhh. Its his RVS vote. Some people like to take some time before they decide to vote. We're not even that far in the game. If we were close to the lynch deadline, then I would indeed be suspicious and call him out on fence sitting. However, simply not voting is by no means a sign of fence sitting. If he made excuses to jump onto different bandwagons, however, by saying "X strikes me as scummy and so does Y," without throwing a vote at either, then yes, that would be fence sitting and that would be scummy. However, that is not what he is doing.