MUNSCM - Abandoned

[PolarBoy]

Cheerio!

/Confirm

[PolarBoy]

Point of order: I move to open this session of MUNSCM.

[PolarBoy]

The delegate from the United Kingdoms wishes to be added to the speakers list.

[PolarBoy]

in favour

[PolarBoy]

The delegate from the United Kingdom votes in favour of the motion to end discussion.

[PolarBoy]

I think you mean

omniscient

.

[PolarBoy]

MUNSCM 002: Weapons Inspectors

Acknowledging

that investigations often turn up nothing;

Noting

that more experienced players will be more dangerous than inexperienced players if evil;

Noting

that said players are more dangerous if they have veto power

1.

Requires

that weapons inspectors be sent to China.

[PolarBoy]

Can I be added to the speakers list?

[PolarBoy]

The delegate from the United Kingdom would like to speak opposed to this ammendment.

There were several reasons that China was selected as opposed to random selection. Some were addressed in the original resolution. Another reason though is that we do not know what the report will entail. Whether it will even, for instance, include the name of the country investigated.

To address the issue raised by the delegate from Benin, the fact that an axis member with veto power would be so dangerous is the very reason to keep those with more power in check first. The United Kingdom does not have blind faith in this nebulous concept of divine fairness and believes that we should prepare for the worst case scenario first.

On another note, this resolution is by no means complete. After submission of the original resolution it was realized that the axis has merely to launch a nuclear strike on the nation inspected to make the investigation worthless. It could also attack the nation receiving the report for virtually the same effect.

The next resolution was to include a plan to counteract this inevetability by randomizing the receiver of the report and sending the MABM to the nation being investigated.

It is the firm belief of this delegate that this plan, or one similar to it, would minimize the potential for failure in ascertaining the placement of unsanctioned nuclear weapons.

[PolarBoy]

The United Kingdom votes opposed to the ammendment.

[PolarBoy]

Point of information directed at the speaker: If you like my ideas about how the issues in my resolution can be addressed why don't you just propose the ammendment yourself?

[PolarBoy]

The delegate from the United Kingdom would like to speak against the motion to go to caucus. I see no purpose in opening the floor for debate before the issue at hand is settled. I would also be amicable to the failure MUNSCM 002, as it is woefully incomplete and does not really aid the security council in locating the axis of evil.

[PolarBoy]

Delegate from Brazil, your question barely dignifies a response as all who have been involved in this debate are aware of what is about to be said in answer.

After submission of the original resolution it was realized that the axis has merely to launch a nuclear strike on the nation inspected to make the investigation worthless. It could also attack the nation receiving the report for virtually the same effect.

The next resolution was to include a plan to counteract this inevetability by randomizing the receiver of the report and sending the MABM to the nation being investigated.

It is the firm belief of this delegate that this plan, or one similar to it, would minimize the potential for failure in ascertaining the placement of unsanctioned nuclear weapons.

[PolarBoy]

The delegate from the United Kingdom seconds the motion to close debate.

[PolarBoy]

If there are no speakers against don't we skip the vote?

Just in case,

Vote: In favor

[PolarBoy]

mathcam's suggestion of inspecting a nation with veto power and then sending the report to another so empowered nation seems logical. If the axis of evil had one nation in that position we could still eliminate it easily as a nation cannot veto a resolution that directly names it, whereas if two had that power they could veto for each-other. Of course this wouldn't make it impossible for the axis to have 2 or even 3 or 4 members in that position, as we could simply name all of them in one resolution. Something like:

1. Requires nuclear strike on nation x
2. Requires later nuclear strike tommorow on nation y

So what this adds up to is that we must be prepared for the possibility of concentration of the axis in a position of power.

Another question has occured to me. Should the chair report who was inspected to us? It is not even a question whether he should report who was protected. In the case that the mafia failed in their attack, such a report would be valuable in locating another innocent. But knowing who was inspected may not be a good thing. Obviously the nation receiving the report should know, but keeping such knowledge from the public has the potential to also keep it from the axis of evil. If the receiver of the report is also kept anonymous then the delegate can prevent a strike on an innocent nation without necessarily making them a target for destruction.

I'll have to think about this some more.

[PolarBoy]

Point taken Flying Dutchman. I guess that means that only one evil nation has veto. Therefore mathcam's plan of inspecting one veto power nation and sending the report to another.

A brief note about statistics. If we select a random nation with veto power to investigate another nation with veto power, the odds are as follows:

7/24, Innocent finds innocent
1/6, Innocent finds guilty
1/6, Guilty finds innocent

Obviously a Lepton's Gambit is not possible if the guilty nation receives the report, since insanity and paranoia are not part of the equation, so we can assume that a quilty nation would tell the truth and say that the report came up innocent. This means that if the chair reveals who was investigated and who received the report, we can be sure of confirming an innocent or finding a guilty, with an 11/24 odds of finding an innocent.

On the other hand we waste a lot of time(like 6 days) if there is no evil nation with veto power. Then again this plan was mainly for the short term while we don't know anything. As the game progresses we can assume that we'll have more information.

So basically as long as our investigator and investigatee don't get nuked(Not entirely unlikely I'm afraid), we're in good shape.

Do we have any leads for our nuke today?

[PolarBoy]

gahhh...you're right. My math is bunk. I'll have to go over it again.

[PolarBoy]

I pulled those statistics out of my butt. I tried working the whole thing out in my head beause I thought it was a less complex problem than it really is. I should double check before I post more often.

[PolarBoy]

My point exactly. If we send the MABM to the country we investigate then the only event in which we don't get evidence is if the country receiving the report gets nuked. Even if an axis member receives the report we still get to confirm an innocent.

[PolarBoy]

Because part of the plan is to have the chair report who received the investigation in the morning. If we know who has the results and who their on, then there's no reason to keep them secret. I am aware that this plan does not allow us to make a long list of confirmed innocents in the long run. I do not expect this plan to remain in effect for the long run though.

[PolarBoy]

The delegate from the United Kingdom would like to speak against. Actually this is going to sound a little petty, but a lot of this was my idea. It is not reasonable that a nation should be allowed to move up on the agenda simply by asking. A simple look at the thread reveals that the United Kingdom was instrumental in composing the current plan, though China did contribute. It seems outside the realm of possibility that any purpose is served at all by such a motion, as it is known what the United Kingdom will propose, and also that there will be little of difference coming from China.

[PolarBoy]

The United Kingdom

Votes against

the ammendment.

[PolarBoy]

MUNSCM 003:

Noting that allowing the axis to know what nation is protected allows them to attack with impunity.

Also noting that allowing the axis to know which nation is investigated gives them an optimal target.

Further noting that not allowing the council to know confuses debate.

1. Requires that MABM be sent to a nation randomly selected by the chair.

2. Requires that weapons inspectors be sent to the same nation selected for MABM protection.

3. Requires that inspection report be sent to another nation randomly selected by the chair.

4. Requires that both nations selected have veto power.

5. Requires that selections by the chair be announced to council the day after and no sooner.

Submitted by the delegate from the United Kingdom.

[PolarBoy]

point of informaton directed at the chair: For the purposes of this game, does the chair receive the result of the investigation?

[PolarBoy]

The delegate from the United Kingdom

Votes in favor

of closing debate on MUNSCM 003

[PolarBoy]

The United Kingdom

votes in favor

of MUNSCM 003.

[PolarBoy]

The United Kingsdom

votes in favor

of the motion, realizing that delegates may easily add resolutions that remain important to the end of the agenda.

[PolarBoy]

United Kingdom

votes against

the motion to close debate.

[PolarBoy]

The United Kingdom

votes against

the motion. Really.

[PolarBoy]

Point of Information directed at the speaker: Can it really be assumed that an veto-empowered member of the axis would automatically veto any resolution to destroy a fellow member of the axis? Please note that this is not intended to in any way imply that a veto-empowered member of the axis is not significantly more dangerous than one not so empowered.

[PolarBoy]

Point of information directed at the speaker:

Perhaps in the event of a veto, an ammendment could be made to MUNSCM 003, sending weapons inspectors to Romania, or perhaps to the vetoing nation?

[PolarBoy]

JEEP?

Point of information directed at the speaker:

Having reconsidered an earlier proposal of a hypothetical ammendment to MUNSCM 003 in the event of a veto of sanctioned nuclear strike in the face of large majority vote, perhaps it would not be necessary to send MABM to the nation that would be investigated?

The delegate from the United Kingdom would also like to take this opporunity to apologize for the long preamble.

[PolarBoy]

The delegate from the United Kingdom would like to be added to the speakers list.

[PolarBoy]

Point of information directed at the chair: can a motion dictate what will happen in the event that it is, itself, vetoed? Doesn't that defy the definition of what a veto entails?

[PolarBoy]

United Kingdom

votes in favor

of the ammendment.

[PolarBoy]

United Kingdom

votes against

the motion to close debate.

[PolarBoy]

Actually as it turns out the United Kingdom has very little of relevance to say at this time. One should note that the delegate from Romania's suggestion of including the whole council in our search gives us a guaranteed 1/5 chance of locating Axis members, and searching only non-empowered nations give us either a 1/5 or 3/10 chance of locating them, whereas searching only empowered nations may give us no chance of locating the axis. Insofar as that is true, the Romanian delegates plan has merit. This, of course is assuming that the danger of an empowered axis member is outweighed by said merit.

The delegate from the United Kingdom would also like the council to consider potentially ammending MUNSCM 003 conditionally based on the alignment of whatever nation is the target of a nuclear strike today, taking into consideration that MUNSCM 003 was devised with the assumption of no information.

[PolarBoy]

United Kingdom

votes in favor

of shelving debate on MUNSCM 007.

[PolarBoy]

The United Kingdom

Votes in favor

of the ammendment.

[PolarBoy]

The United Kingdom

Votes in favor

of the motion.

[PolarBoy]

The United Kingdom

votes against

the motion to caucus.

[PolarBoy]

POI to the speaker:

What, precisely, are you recommending?

[PolarBoy]

POI to the speaker

So basically an unequivocal elimination of veto powers?

[PolarBoy]

POI to the chair

: In such a situation as the one detailed in the above post, could the axis of evil not simply pass a motion to temporarily revoke of one of the non-axis nations' veto power and then resolve to nuke the other?

[PolarBoy]

POI to the chair

: In such a situation as the one detailed in the above post, could the axis of evil not simply pass a

motion

to temporarily revoke of one of the non-axis nations' veto power and then resolve to nuke the other?

POI to the chair:

It was this delegates understanding that veto-power did not apply to motions, and that the power of veto could be revoked with a motion. Could you explain where I am mistaken?

[PolarBoy]

the delegate from the United Kingdom motions that the chair and all MUNSCM delegates congratulate him on completing his nineteenth journey around the sun.

[PolarBoy]

the United Kingdom

Votes in favor

.

[PolarBoy]

United Kingdom

votes in favor

.

[PolarBoy]

Cheerio!

[PolarBoy]

* writes home about the wit and wisdom of his fellow delegates. *

[PolarBoy]

Pakistan is here!

that wasnt witty

China agrees.

So does Chile.

Did Chile really have to do that? Now we had a quote in a quote in a quote! Doesn't Chile realise what a disaster this is, it makes it SO hard to read and understand!

* the delegate from the United Kingdom refrains from mentioning that he can think of worse things. *

[PolarBoy]

Oh, another page, whoops. The delegate from the United Kingdom

votes in favor

of MUNSCM 010.

[PolarBoy]

The United Kingdom

votes in favor

of the motion to caucus, noting that it will probably have little effect one way or the other which order things happen in.

[PolarBoy]

United Kingdom

Votes in favor

, and

Votes: Vraak X for president

.

[PolarBoy]

* holds forehead and shakes head *

[PolarBoy]

The United Kingdom

votes against shelving debate

, questioning what else could possibly be added to this debate and noting that the only resolutions on the aggenda will be meaningless should this resolution pass.

[PolarBoy]

* clears throat loudly *

United Kingdom

votes in favor

[PolarBoy]

The United Kingdom

votes against

.

[PolarBoy]

* picks up the lost decorums from the floor *

[PolarBoy]

mmmmm...chilli

[PolarBoy]

MUNSCM 011: Nuclear Strike and Sundry

Emphasizing the American delegate's vehement attacks on Romania, wasting of time through motions with no purpose, and overall lack of any positive contribution to these proceedings.

Acknowledging that the implied course of action requires a reconsideration of policy.

Noting that a resolution raising issues not previously debated will probably require ammendment.

1. Sanctions and requires a nuclear strike on the United States of America.

2. Requires that, in the event that America is found not to be a member of the axis of evil, that clauses 2 through 4 of MUNSCM 011 be struck down.

2. Ammends MUNSCM 003 clause 2 to read "Requires that the weapons inspectors' report be sent to the same nation selected for MABM protection."

3. Ammends MUNSCM 003 clause 3 to read "Requires that weapons inspectors be sent to another nation randomly selected by the chair."

4. Ammends MUNSCM 003 clause 4 to read "4. Requires that the nation inspected not have veto power, and that the nation receiving the report have veto power."

Submitted by the delegate from the United Kingdom

[PolarBoy]

The delegate United Kingdom requests to be added to the speaker's list and motions to be be moved to the top, speaking directly after Romania.

Also, the delegate from the United Kingdom apologizes for any confusion arising from his admittedly complex resolution.

[PolarBoy]

The UK

Votes in favor

of the motion and encourages other delegates to vote, as well as to read the most recent page of the thread.

[PolarBoy]

The delegate from the United Kingdom would like to give a clause-by-clause explanation of MUNSCM 011. Also, this delegate apoligizes for the accidental mis-numbering of the original resolution, and requests that the chair ammend this mistake.

1. Sanctions and requires a nuclear strike on the United States of America.

The intention of this clause needs no explanation. However, it is within this delegate's duties to give some explanation as to why the United States should be eliminated. Firstly, the delegate has proposed motions on more than one occasion which seemingly served no purpose; secondly, he has made several long speeches which also seem to have served no purpose. It is this delegate's contention that both were intended for no other reason than to waste time while giving the appearance of being involved in the search for the axis of evil.

2. Requires that, in the event that America is found not to be a member of the axis of evil, that clauses 2 through 4 of MUNSCM 011 be struck down.

MUNSCM 003 was designed to eliminate the threat of an axis nation having veto power. It has come to light that there can be no two nations in the axis of evil with veto power. Therefore, if the United States is revealed as a member of the axis, there is no need to continue searching for one, excpet among non-empowered nations. The remaining clauses deal with such a possibility.

2. Ammends MUNSCM 003 clause 2 to read "Requires that the weapons inspectors' report be sent to the same nation selected for MABM protection."

MUNSCM 003 clause 1 sends the MABM to a nation randomly selected by the chair. The clause quoted above, if enacted, would esure that this nation(which will surely survive the night) will receive the weapons inspectors report, thereby allowing the town to see it.

3. Ammends MUNSCM 003 clause 3 to read "Requires that weapons inspectors be sent to another nation randomly selected by the chair."

This clause sends out weapons inspectors to another nation.

4. Ammends MUNSCM 003 clause 4 to read "4. Requires that the nation inspected not have veto power, and that the nation receiving the report have veto power."

This clause maximizes our potential for locating unsanctioned nuclear weapons: firstly by narrowing our search to not include the four nations that would be cleared, secondly by forcing the axis to choose between a 1 in 4 chance of making no attack and increasing the odds that a future weapons inspection will reveal a member of the axis.

The delegate from the United Kingdom will now accept points of information from the other delegates.

[PolarBoy]

First, to answer the questions of the delegate from the United States: The United Kingdom has detailed an extensive contingency plan as to what to do in the event that the United States is found not to be a member of the axis in the form of MUNSCM 003. This resolution puts Britain under scrutiny before ten other members of the council.

The United Kingdom has no plans to make reparations in the event that an earnest nation is destroyed in these precedings. No reparations can be made to a nation that has ceased to exist. Furthermore any sacrifice by the United Kingdom would only further damage the council and eliminate a destroyed nation's chance of winning in spite of it's destruction. Reparations are not a part of the equation, and this delegate recommends that they not be spoken of again. Obviously, the United Kingdom takes responsibility for any nation it destroys and will be at the mercy of the council if it has made a mistake.

"Distractions with no point" waste time and divert the council from the legitimate enterprise of eliminating the axis of evil. They exhaust the council members' attention and in the end produce nothing to show for it. Ultimately this sort of distraction could be intentionally manufactured by an axis nation for the express purpose of exhausting the council. Therefore their presence in a given delegate's behavior is circumstancial evidence to the effect that he does not wish the council to eliminate the axis of evil.

The American delegate's call for a weapons inspection can also serve no purpose for the council, as anyone who is put forward as a candidate for nuclear strike can request the same treatment. We do not have 12 days and nights to locate the axis of evil, so this is an unworkable strategy.

The United Kingdom offers no proof of anything, as none can be produced. The United Kingdom does, however, offer as evidence his own record as a delegate for the scrutiny of all other delegates.

No call has been made for the removal of restriction on veto-powers in the event that the United States be found to be a member of the axis of evil, but this delegate would like to discourse briefly on the subject: In it's current for MUNSCM 011 assumes that a maximum one axis veto power may exist. This theory is acceptable on the basis that two veto-powers could prevent ther security council from doing anything, therefore making this session a failure by default. Therefore MUNSCM 011 ends the search for nuclear weapons among veto-empowered nations and also entrusts them with the handling of weapons inspectors reports. It had not occurred to this delegate before that the restrictions on veto-powers might be lifted in such an event as well, but that would certainly bear future discussion. However, all of this is conditional on whether or not the United States actually does possess unsanctioned nuclear weapons, and therefore needs not be discussed now and may never need to be discussed.

The delegate from the United Kingdom will consider the United States' request that the required vote count be raised for this resolution, but is not prepared to offer a position at this time.

The United Kingdom offers as further evidence in the form of an assault on the United Kingdom in the first point of information of post #1140:[quote=Vraak X]Why does Britain not agree to an inspection first to clear the United States?[/quote]The United Kingdom was given no opportunity to respond to the original request for a weapons inspection made in post #1136, as the two posts were made only minutes apart.

The United Kingdom is not entirely certain what is being asked in post #1141, and therefore will offer no response.

To the Russian Delegate: This delegate, as yet, has no formal report on it's suspicions of the United States, but will attempt to assemble one in the near future. Although for quick reference the repeated and pointless impeachments of character in the American Delegate's recent points of information all demonstrate the sort of behavior this delegate finds suspicious. If another delegate would like, this delegate is prepared to explain precisely why he feels these impeachments of character are pointless.

Again to the American Delegate: It was not originally felt by the delegate from the United Kingdom that any lengthy explanation would be required for MUNSCM 011 until some debate had occured. However, the other delegates felt otherwise and this delegate did what he felt best to advance the agenda of the security council. Obviously there is no reason that the United States should not be able to defend itself against any accusations made.

[PolarBoy]

The delegate from the United Kingdom would like to begin with some apologies: First, for not posting sooner. It was just one of those weekends; Second, for holding things up for a rather unfulfilling result.

This delegate has had second thoughts about the formal report spoken of earlier for several reasons. In order to make a better than random lynching decision, every player must make their own analysis. Reading my analysis and giving approving or disapproving it would not accomplish this. The best I could hope for would be absolution in the event that I am wrong. Also, it has occured to me that I have not given thorough thought to the question of, to be blunt, whether the American delegate is scum, or just stupid.

It is my firm belief that the American delegate's actions have, on the whole, been of little value within the game, because of my belief that he simply has not been playing the game. Many of his questions and dissertations have addressed issues that were not a legitimate part of Mafia, such as the ethics of legal procedings, reparations for unlawful actions, the distastfulness of ruling by fear, etc.

This delegate would like to remind all players, and the American delegate in particular, that there are no real nations involved in this game, that ethics have no value within a gaming construct, and that the game will be over after one side has won. We have all agreed to play this game, and not any other, so we should bend our efforts toward winning, regardless of the cost within the game.

With that being said, I am not willing at this time to advance a lynch based solely on my own observations alone. I have my suspicions, but as has been pointed out, no proof, and no solid evidence.

The delegate from the United Kingdom will now accept points of information.

[PolarBoy]

To the American Delegate: Precisely.

[PolarBoy]

To the American delegate: No. Only that if debate were closed now and MUNCM 011 put to a vote, I would probably vote against.

To the Spanish delegate: Capital idea. I was merely waiting to make sure I dealt with all the questions that were specifically for the United Kingdom.

With that, the delegate from the United Kingdom steps down.

[PolarBoy]

* Apologizes humbly for the mistake. *