Lucid Dreamers - Game Halted

[UncertainKitten]

Ah, WIFOM.

That's one buzzword mentioned.

By any chance have you used OMGUS yet?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

All I can say is that if this is how Parama is going to play, I'm sure as hell glad that he has no vote.

It would be wasted on him.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Also, this all distracted me from looking at Mykonian.

Meant to do that dammit!

[Parama]

It's funny that so many people are agreeing that I'm town and yet are still yelling at me ^_^

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Because we want you to play better god dammit!

[mykonian]

There really isn't an excuse not to iso me Lady I can't have more then ten posts at this moment because I have pages to catch up with every time.

And well, you know how I can play as scum, so you should be able to meta me accurately.


Parama, we are going to NL, simply because it's the best plan. If you disagree, please read my first post again. There isn't clear scum, and half the game is on each other because they have a history.

[Parama]

Parama, we are going to NL, simply because it's the best plan. If you disagree, please read my first post again.

I prefer to play a game where the town has a say in who dies, not the scum or a single person. The Day is still way more important than the Night, even in a game like this.

[mykonian]

yep, the last days. The first nights you need a massive town force, the more massive, the better. We lynch tomorrow, maybe. First we need 3 investigations and 2 deats, or something like that. Information improves lynches, Parama. Believe me, it's true.

[UncertainKitten]

I would invite you, myko, to consider the fact that Craft and another ability cannot be used at the same time, so the game IS a bit different from normal Lucid Dreamers.

I'm not sure if this necessarily changes the accuracy of what you're saying, but I feel it's an important distinction to mention.

[Kitoari]

Votecount #6
Katsuki - Leiskyrie, UncertainKitten (2)
Lilu Hel -Lady Lambdadelta, Fate (2)
StrangerCoug - bv310 (1)
UncertainKitten - malthusis (1)
Lady Lambdadelta - Katsukikiki (1)
Fate - Lilu Hel (1)
Mykonian - StrangerCoug (1)
No Lynch - mykonian (1)

Not voting: Parama, Shadow Dancer

Deadline is on January 3rd, 4:00 PM Central Time.
With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch!

[Katsuki]

That's a lot of doublevoting I see in the vote count.

You guys post too much. If I can't get caught up by today I'll try for tomorrow.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Mod, is that vote count correct?

[StrangerCoug]

HEY SC, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF LILUHEI?

Lilu Hel is still a little worrisome to me. I still find his case on you flawed, and he hasn't completely gone away.

What did I do by your second post that got me on your scumdar, and what pro-town motive do you have to keep me in the dark about it?

mykonian,

PLEASE ANSWER THIS.

My vote is going nowhere until you do, and if I wanted to be ignored I would not have signed up for this game.

[mykonian]

What did I do by your second post that got me on your scumdar, and what pro-town motive do you have to keep me in the dark about it?

mykonian,

PLEASE ANSWER THIS.

My vote is going nowhere until you do, and if I wanted to be ignored I would not have signed up for this game.

You can still replace out. You are ignoring the rest of the game because one single person expressed suspicion of you. And this fits perfectly with your passive defensive playstyle. During the start of the game, you showed no intention to find scum. The second and third posts gave the game these lines:

Hmm... Food for thought, but malthusis has a good counterpoint.

Habit compels me to play the day out. mykonian isn't scummy for suggesting the idea, though.

You are scared to take a stance, you observe rather then search, and when the opportunity finally arises, you vote horribly. You are just sitting in this game SC, and experienced as you are, you know you have to hunt scum.

But what do you do? You go for a fullblown "He gave no reasons" case, and threaten with your vote. Townies do not threaten. They lynch or they don't. It is that I know that we should NL, otherwise I'd do a Parama on you.

[mykonian]

you know what, screw the optimal strategy.

vote SC

.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

you know what, screw the optimal strategy.

vote SC

.

Not even. At the best scenario, what you just did was a "Fuck this shit, instead of doing what I think is best for town, I'll vote, even though I consider it to be sub-optimal". Why would you do something you consider to be sub-optimal, by self admission?

At worst, that's a thinly disguised vote hop, showing everyone that your stance on making this day an NL was just to earn yourself town points before you placed a (poor) vote.

[StrangerCoug]

What did I do by your second post that got me on your scumdar, and what pro-town motive do you have to keep me in the dark about it?

mykonian,

PLEASE ANSWER THIS.

My vote is going nowhere until you do, and if I wanted to be ignored I would not have signed up for this game.

You can still replace out. You are ignoring the rest of the game because one single person expressed suspicion of you.

Replacing out because I'm not getting what I want is a cheap way to handle the situation.

Also, if you think I am ignoring the rest of the game, then ask me about the rest of the game. I'll happily provide my thoughts and opinions.

And this fits perfectly with your passive defensive playstyle. During the start of the game, you showed no intention to find scum. The second and third posts gave the game these lines:

Hmm... Food for thought, but malthusis has a good counterpoint.

Habit compels me to play the day out. mykonian isn't scummy for suggesting the idea, though.

You are scared to take a stance, you observe rather then search, and when the opportunity finally arises, you vote horribly. You are just sitting in this game SC, and experienced as you are, you know you have to hunt scum.

The problem is not that I am scared. I am allowed time to think, and neither of you are scummy for suggesting we should lynch or not lynch.

But what do you do? You go for a fullblown "He gave no reasons" case, and threaten with your vote. Townies do not threaten. They lynch or they don't.

I'm sorry? "Townies do not threaten"? Just because you disagree with me about legitimate ways to pressure people does not make me scummy. I've threatened as both alignments. (If I remember Insane Asylum 2 correctly, that's a game where I've threatened people as town.)

[mykonian]

But what do you do? You go for a fullblown "He gave no reasons" case, and threaten with your vote. Townies do not threaten. They lynch or they don't.

I'm sorry? "Townies do not threaten"? Just because you disagree with me about legitimate ways to pressure people does not make me scummy. I've threatened as both alignments. (If I remember Insane Asylum 2 correctly, that's a game where I've threatened people as town.)

"it's my meta"

I don't care SC. It's antitown, serves no purpose other then survival and satisfying your testosterone influenced brain. And this time you are scum btw. Townies don't have to say "I do it as town too". That can only happen from a perspective where you are already scum. You make me sad.

[Fate]

k I'm actually gonna take it back, I disagree on no lynch as the best play. Sure while town outnumbers the scum in sheer amount of powers, the scum have

co-ordination

to combine up powers and fuck with people, Ala PYPII as a prime example.


So....

yeah. Mre Halyen votes pl0x

[StrangerCoug]

But what do you do? You go for a fullblown "He gave no reasons" case, and threaten with your vote. Townies do not threaten. They lynch or they don't.

I'm sorry? "Townies do not threaten"? Just because you disagree with me about legitimate ways to pressure people does not make me scummy. I've threatened as both alignments. (If I remember Insane Asylum 2 correctly, that's a game where I've threatened people as town.)

"it's my meta"

"I've done it as both alignments" ≠ "It's my meta." The latter implies I do it often (in fact, it's rare that I do it—what is this, my fourth or fifth time in my entire playing history?), while the former merely denies it being a tell for me either way.

I don't care SC. It's antitown, serves no purpose other then survival and satisfying your testosterone influenced brain. And this time you are scum btw. Townies don't have to say "I do it as town too". That can only happen from a perspective where you are already scum. You make me sad.

I hold it's perfectly acceptable pressuring, you hold it's a scummy survival maneuver. We're clearly going nowhere with this, so I'm going to move on.

Lady Lambdadelta has a good point that you should address. Why back down from a firm no-lynching stance to vote me for flimsy reasoning?

[Fate]

Hmmm I don't like that, I don't like that at all. LLD DOESN"T have a good point SC, and you know better.

myko's transition from "we should NL, we should NL" to "Dear god SC is just too scummy, fuck it" is not a "vote hop" in the slightest, nor was his initial "propose NL plan" just a 'look townie gambit' since I believe if we all agreed he definitely would still follow through on that.


The fact that you are supporting LLD's bad points against myko (and dismissing his case as "flimsy reasoning) makes you all the more scummier.

Also LLD+SC isn't a valid combo so BONUS POINTS.

Unvote:
Vote: SC

[UncertainKitten]

you know what, screw the optimal strategy.

vote SC

.

This is not happy making.

Anyway, no comment on my observation? (Or is it already covered? I have a bad habit of missing things)

@Fate: Any change in myko opinion due to recent vote changes?

@Fate: Not sure I understand.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Fate, that description of Myko's play is only valid if you assume that SC is actually

SO

scummy based upon his prior play.

So I would like to examine Mykonian's points.

Mykonian begins his attack of SC, starting with this comment

Conclusion, SC is scum, together with UK. Now, if two players redirected their actions to Gandalf, and someone would make Gandalf a PGO, this would all be a lot easier.

He gives no real reason to the conclusion, he just comes out and states his conclusion with no backing.

The next real case on SC given by Myko is seen here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p2698540

In this post, he accuses SC of vote parking, and waffling. Also, he chides him for the threatening of his vote.

He follows up this case, with this post: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p2700321

He continues to talk about how town doesn't threaten their vote, and continues his attack on SC's lack of an attempt to do more than fence sit and be passive.

In conclusion, myko's points are:

1) SC threatens his vote, which myko considers anti-town
2) SC is too passive.

Here is the problem with those attacks.

Firstly, I can see a situation in which town threatens a vote. It's when they cannot get a read on a player, because they refuse to answer a question (which is what you have done, and what SC has been asking for/voted you for).

Notably, SC actually DOES vote you for not answering him. You continue to say "townies lynch or don't lynch. They don't threaten." Well... SC voted. Your problem with his vote is now, what exactly? That he threatened it before placing it? Well, you can't accuse him of fence sitting here, because he's voted you.

Secondly, about SC being passive. Admittedly, SC started the game with two weak posts, which made him look like he didn't want to commit to anything. This is your only point against him I accept.

However, how is SC so scummy from this 1 point that you completely abandon your No lynch policy, which you have been trying to establish from the beginning.

That's something I find problematic.

[mykonian]

Ok, your characterisation of my points is objective enough:

In conclusion, myko's points are:

1) SC threatens his vote, which myko considers anti-town
2) SC is too passive.

Here is the problem with those attacks.

Firstly, I can see a situation in which town threatens a vote. It's when they cannot get a read on a player, because they refuse to answer a question (which is what you have done, and what SC has been asking for/voted you for).

However, here we have the coincidence that SC was so interested in why people would suspect "him". That you think it's odd that I didn't give reasons is normal. But you didn't vote me for it, you say it's odd, and you scumhunt. SC stated multiple times that he made a "legitimate" vote. He voted because I wouldn't tell him.

He never voted because he thought I'm scum

. Which is defensive, reactive play (=scummy as hell). SC's last posts have all been focussed on me, which is only proving my point. Townies don't threaten, as scum will always give in, which means that their vote isn't used to lynch scum.

Notably, SC actually DOES vote you for not answering him. You continue to say "townies lynch or don't lynch. They don't threaten." Well... SC voted. Your problem with his vote is now, what exactly? That he threatened it before placing it? Well, you can't accuse him of fence sitting here, because he's voted you.

If I were scum, I would buddy the hell out of him and he wouldn't have a reason to vote/lynch me. SC voteparked by finding a legitimate reason to vote, but one which never could lead to a lynch.

Secondly, about SC being passive. Admittedly, SC started the game with two weak posts, which made him look like he didn't want to commit to anything. This is your only point against him I accept.

However, how is SC so scummy from this 1 point that you completely abandon your No lynch policy, which you have been trying to establish from the beginning.

It's not just those two first posts (though that was what made me suspect him), it continous. SC has, till now, not done any decent scumhunting. He has made sure he asked

every single question asked

, he has focussed on me right after he proclaimed suspicion of him, but hasn't paid attention to the rest of the game. His vote was one which he used to gain an answer for his defense, not to find and lynch scum (as can be seen earlier. He thought my only other action, arguing in favor of a NL, was townie). SC isn't town here.

[Parama]

That's something I find problematic.

Something I find problematic is the lack of a vote at the end of this wall-o-text. You have more of a case on Myko than anyone else... so why didn't you vote him?