Mini 1102 - Rivertown Mafia (Game Over!)

[Furcolow]

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NT Bro
I wish you'd get on someone a little more scummy...

Whilst I dislike bandwagonning and hammering at times, I don't mind a little pressure D-1.
The only bad thing is it can lead to outting town PRs, if even by sharing who are townies
I dislike that, but other than that, bandwagons can easily be on scum, bro.

Sorry for absence. Was unexpectedly busy last couple of days.

Umbrage and Admiral are still ignoring my questions. I don't ask them because I have nothing else to do. I want answers please.

Can you please restate the questions?

The person who earns my FoS the most is not El Simo, but thadmiral for deterring the wagon by placing a RVS on someone. Why not bandwagon at that point?

My vote wasn't random. I don't believe playing out the rvs for the rvs's sake is good play. I think the sooner a game gets out of the rvs the better. I don't think indiscriminate bandwagonning for the sake of a bandwagon is good.

ive done that on my alt
i dont do that on this
this is my VI account
get over itp

I don't know what this means but if you are intentionally playing badly just for the fun of it you piece of shit, you deserve to be banned from this site for all eternity.

This comes out a bit harsh, but I agree with the spirit of it. Ever since VI's became an accepted part of mafiascum the game has become less fun/skill based imo.

1. This is supposed to be a civil game. I don't give a shit about swearing, but ad hominem attacks and slurs have no place here. (I'm looking at you, Furcolow.) I don't want to see the word 'retard' or any deviation of it. It is both offensive and low-class.

You did call him a piece of shit.

I'm not so sure about my case on el simo anymore. His posting in the last 4 or so pages has been pretty good and has given me town-vibes. His defence of furc also strikes me as town. I can confirm that furc is like this in most games and while I don't like how he plays it still doesn't mean he should be lynched.

I don't like cyberbob (pushing furc policy lynch hard) and thirdkoopa (the weird instant unvote), but for now I will just

unvote

.

Really liking this post
thadmiral isn't lying about me
I'm not "on a VI account for the sake of being on a VI account"
i was referring to this being my main account, and me being a VI
I am also Hydra-ing with Vi, who is a good player, who is teaching me on an alt-hydra-account
therefore, this, my normal account, is my "vi account" even if it is not an "alt account for a vi"

umbrage, kiss my ass, you started it.

Cyberbob is hardcore active lurking. I agree that creating a “VI” account is really not something I, or others, would favor upon since it is an attempt to intentionally ruin others’ games. However, Furcolow’s play hasn’t set off warning signs for me, it’s not VI behavior.

I'll need a few more posts like #266 before I'm convinced of this, but I still want an explanation from him either way of why he tried to deflect criticism in that way.

i DO NOT see why you should be interrogating
you have done NOTHING that is pro-town
you have not even been POSTING pro-town
you're not fuckin' benmage

ThirdKoopa's List

1. ortiz1193 - Neutral
2. el simo - Town (Slight read + Gut on this)
3. ThAdmiral - Neutral
4. Furcolow - Neutral
5. Umbrage - Neutral
6. chamber - Town
7. sorasgoof - Town
8. InflatablePie - ??? (You replaced an inactive person so...)
9. Olinea - ???
10. Cyberbob - Neutral (Slight scum read but this is really gut feeling right now)
12. TheLonging - ???

You have no scum reads at all, other than one "slight scum read" based on gut? I find that hard to believe. And how do you not have any read on Pie? He's been interacting with you quite a bit. What makes you think chamber and I are more townie than anyone else? Your reads are quite similar to Furcolow's reads...

Then, we have the horrible vote on Umbrage (who, by the way, is now a neutral read for some reason), the unvote, and the subsequent burst in activity after being called out. I was already becoming suspicious of you in your ISO5, but everything since then has made you the most scummy player in the game at this point, in my opinion.

vote: Thirdkoopa

I am not really wary of your vote - I like the 3rdkoopa wagon...
just... you chastise IPie for his lists... then you vote with his case?
What is the point of that?
It makes you feel less sure of yourself, which makes me less sure you're town
if you're town, it weakens your vote
if you're scum, it makes you appear cautious which is a scumtell

basically, there is nothing POSSIBLY town about your waffling before bandwagon...
not worth my vote, but worth my

FoS

caution isn't a scumtell unless it's obvious that it's just waffling

seriously wtf do you people think (obviously not if you think caution is a bad thing)

I disagree
town are proven to be more reckless, scum more cautious
I can link you if you'd like.

caution isn't a scumtell unless it's obvious that it's just waffling

(actual content will come later tonight)

hell yea, the dude!
I love white russians.

You should know that people rarely ever just randomly say their gut reads when they have no evidence and can't back it up. If I would've said 5 pages ago, "oh hey btw soras is scum, I can't prove it or anything, I just feel it," then it would've gotten nowhere.

I actually have to back this up...
I listed my gut read in a game the other day, and I almost got crucified
"YOU HADNT MENTIONED THAT PERSON AT ALL"
I was like jeez, man, you can just get bad vibes about someone and not mention it. Is it that big of a deal? I agree with ortiz here.

unvote

i am going to reserve voting seriously until i'm a bit more sure
am considering 3rdkoopa, or sora liking IPie's case. Would you vote ANYONE in groups 2/4 (I believe it was)?
for now I am going to make a placeholder vote on cyberbob

vote: cyberbob

[Cyberbob]

i was referring to this being my main account, and me being a VI
...
therefore, this, my normal account, is my "vi account" even if it is not an "alt account for a vi"

this is a really weird train of thought for what looks to have been a post written in the heat of the moment but whatever

i DO NOT see why you should be interrogating
you have done NOTHING that is pro-town
you have not even been POSTING pro-town
you're not fuckin' benmage

this is a pretty strongly worded attack for a dude that's only "placeholder voting" me

I disagree
town are proven to be more reckless, scum more cautious
I can link you if you'd like.

So something that town should almost always be doing as part of good play has become a scumtell? What a shitty meta - I reject the hell out of it.

[ThAdmiral]

k. Why?

The way that ortiz suddenly said he was suspicious of soras after umbrage had voted for him, and then you jumped on as well even though you were apparently 100% sure of 3k.

caution isn't a scumtell unless it's obvious that it's just waffling

seriously wtf do you people think (obviously not if you think caution is a bad thing)

I disagree
town are proven to be more reckless, scum more cautious
I can link you if you'd like.

This is becoming less reliable as more people know about this tell, which by now is a lot.

[Furcolow]

i was referring to this being my main account, and me being a VI
...
therefore, this, my normal account, is my "vi account" even if it is not an "alt account for a vi"

this is a really weird train of thought for what looks to have been a post written in the heat of the moment but whatever

i DO NOT see why you should be interrogating
you have done NOTHING that is pro-town
you have not even been POSTING pro-town
you're not fuckin' benmage

this is a pretty strongly worded attack for a dude that's only "placeholder voting" me

I disagree
town are proven to be more reckless, scum more cautious
I can link you if you'd like.

So something that town should almost always be doing as part of good play has become a scumtell? What a shitty meta - I reject the hell out of it.

w/e i didn't make the theory
better players than i did
and a placeholder vote will obviously be on someone you find scummy

i find you scummy
im puttin my vote on you for now
and im goin to bed
good night

[Cyberbob]

w/e i didn't make the theory
better players than i did

ahahahahah this is the greatest rationale for blindly following a thing

and a placeholder vote will obviously be on someone you find scummy

do you know what the term 'placeholder' means (don't think you do!)

i find you scummy
im puttin my vote on you for now
and im goin to bed
good night

night )

[InflatablePie]

Alright, I'll stop acting arrogant and actually address the small case on me.

Pie for pointing out the fact that ortiz is buddying (one could read "You're welcome, now stop sucking up to me please." as "dude, stop buddying up to me so obviously!")

You can also read it as "I noticed you're buddying up to me and I am pointing it out". Just because oritz is buddying up to me does not make me scum by comparison (assuming in this case oritz is scum).

To add to Admirals scum buddying comment:

Looking back on it, Umbrage and El Simo both look town (or atleast not scum) and the votes on them came from our lack of anything else to go on.

god you're mimicking what I said earlier

Looks like a soft attempt at distancing, makes a comment that implies negativity and suspicious, but leaves it that with out actually saying it is suspicious (when it is, parroting = scum tell). Also looks like a buddy warning.

*sigh* Usually, when I type in all lower-case with no punctuation, it's usually meant to be sarcastic or joking. Just FYI. Regardless, I did say earlier that el simo vs Umbrage was probably town vs town. I stand by that statement. I'm not super suspicious of oritz for this, but he's on my radar due to a gut read and his slight buddying up to me.

k. Why?

The way that ortiz suddenly said he was suspicious of soras after umbrage had voted for him, and then you jumped on as well even though you were apparently 100% sure of 3k.

Understandable.

caution isn't a scumtell unless it's obvious that it's just waffling

seriously wtf do you people think (obviously not if you think caution is a bad thing)

I disagree
town are proven to be more reckless, scum more cautious
I can link you if you'd like.

This is becoming less reliable as more people know about this tell, which by now is a lot.

Occam's Razor (I think this apples here). The most simple solution is the correct one. Sure, scumtells are WIFOM-y, but I'm gonna go with caution being a scumtell IMO.


I'm not going to address anything Cyberbob says until he says things in a more civil tone (dumb as a rock, most retarded thing, etc.). Except for one thing - my "pure town reads" on people are the people that I find are most likely to be town due to overwhelming towntells and should not, for any reason at this point in the game, be considered scum or considered for a lynch. Also, Cyberbob, if you find me so scummy, why are you voting for 3K?

@InflatablePie:
Let's put it this way. Say you suddenly recieved a daykill and you can either shoot TK or soras. Who do you shoot, and why?

Olinea, this is a good question. I actually had to type up the rest of this post, come back to this, and still spent a few minutes thinking.

So I have one shot and I can either shoot either 3K or soras right now... I would have to go with soras.

Do I still think 3K is scum? Yes. But... have you noticed the reactions I have gotten from switching to soras? When I voted 3K, I got some support, 3K got riled up a bit, but a quite a few players ignored me or posted one or two sentences.. I think pretty much every player has commented on my switch to soras now, and a few have found it scummy. soras switch to 3K didn't sit right with me. Admittedly, my case on 3K was weak - the only thing to come out of it was a rise in his activity level and his unvote, which is scummy, yes. But... here's where I have to concede. 3K is looking less scummy the more I read his posts. I still want 3K dead at some point soon, but he's posting decent content. I don't mind keeping him alive for today, yet I'll still hammer his wagon if it builds to that point. Especially if, with lack of pressure, his activity level drops. If he is scum, now he has to keep posting at a decent rate because I called him out for lurking, which means more chances for him to slip. If he's town, I helped motivate him to help the town. It's a win/win situation right now.

Soras' death will give us more information, and his reaction to pressure is pretty bad to boot, what with the OMGUS-y attitude of him casting suspicion on anyone who suspects him.

[Cyberbob]

I'm not going to address anything Cyberbob says until he says things in a more civil tone (dumb as a rock, most retarded thing, etc.).

that's a handy excuse to be sure!

Except for one thing - my "pure town reads" on people are the people that I find are most likely to be town due to overwhelming towntells and should not, for any reason at this point in the game, be considered scum or considered for a lynch.

wow that's what that means??????


no shit sherlock. the problem with broadcasting your ~pure town reads~ is that (assuming you're town for a second) it tells scum who they can kill without being worried about eliminating a potential mislynch opportunity. it's anti-town as hell, dont do it please

Also, Cyberbob, if you find me so scummy, why are you voting for 3K?

hmm maybe because i find him scummier hmmmmm

[diddin]

Votecount

ortiz1193 (1) TheLonging
el simo (1) Olinea
ThAdmiral (0)
Furcolow (0)
Umbrage (1) chamber
chamber (0)
sorasgoof (2) Umbrage, InflatablePie
InflatablePie (1) ThAdmiral
Olinea (0)
Cyberbob (2) ortiz1193, Furcolow
Thirdkoopa (2) Sorasgoof, Cyberbob
TheLonging (0)
Not Voting (2)Thirdkoopa, el simo

It is now day one. With 12 Alive, it takes 7 to lynch and 6 to no lynch. Deadline is Wednesday, January 5 at 10:41 AM Central Time.

What part of no personal attacks don't you guys understand? If it continues I might have to start modkilling.

[InflatablePie]

the problem with broadcasting your ~pure town reads~ is that (assuming you're town for a second) it tells scum who they can kill without being worried about eliminating a potential mislynch opportunity. it's anti-town as hell, dont do it please

I see your point. Although, not only am I just one player, but by making scumlists, the scum can narrow ideas down anyways... Meh, I'm not going to argue. I suppose you're right.

[ThAdmiral]

Pie for pointing out the fact that ortiz is buddying (one could read "You're welcome, now stop sucking up to me please." as "dude, stop buddying up to me so obviously!")

You can also read it as "I noticed you're buddying up to me and I am pointing it out". Just because oritz is buddying up to me does not make me scum by comparison (assuming in this case oritz is scum).

Thanks for responding. I suppose if there was buddying it would be scum-scum or scum-town, and ortiz would be the scum in both of those situations.

unvote

the problem with broadcasting your ~pure town reads~ is that (assuming you're town for a second) it tells scum who they can kill without being worried about eliminating a potential mislynch opportunity. it's anti-town as hell, dont do it please

While I don't disagree with this, one persons towntell may not be anyone elses. It only becomes a real problem imo if everyone starts doing it.

[Olinea]

The thing about soras' case is that I've found that

one

reaction is not often indicative of alignment, as is with the case of TK. OMGUS as a reaction to pressure is a natural thing, I think -- over-the-top OMGUS, no, but from a Town standpoint, it's difficult to look at someone pressuring you and building a case on you and go "Yep, that dude's town". I mean, his reaction was pretty mild, too.

Uh, Pie? You're changing your vote from someone you say you are 100% positive is scum to someone who is just a suspicion? What is wrong with this picture?

I guess you could also include this other part, but that’s not so much OMGUS as it is AtE.

I can't say I felt this game was going to go any differently than any other. One look at the games on my wiki will show you that EVERY DAMN DAY 1 people turn absolutely fucking stupidly idiotic and latch on to me for no good reasons, then the town follows along. It's cool. I guess you could say my Day 1 meta is to do what I'm going to do, and draw out the scum.

The reactions to the soras wagon include ThAdmiral (Against it, he voted you), Ortiz (Wishy-washy on the matter), el simo (Gave “scumpoints” to soras but didn’t vote or FoS), Furcolow (FoS’ed soras, no vote), and myself – I’m against it. I don’t think that the general reactions to the soras vote would garner the daykill in this scenario.

Let’s look at Umbrage’s case on sorasgoof.

Those two last posts by him are a) wagoning the current target and b) leaving a back door open in case the tide turns.

We’ll look at A first. Umbrage’s stance is anti-wagon. Noted. Not a bad thing, I’m just waiting on him to trip up on it.

Maybe I should be voting you for phrasing the above to make me look scummy.

Spreading suspicion without commitment to a wagon. This can be taken as a willingness to vote me or a simple joke, depending on how everyone reacts.

A wagon’s something you “commit” to now.

That was fast.

Now for B.

I wasn't worried about that, as evidenced by the way I treated it as a joke.

Observe how he uses a conveniently placed backdoor to excuse his actions.

Okay.

@all: No more joking/sarcasm/rhetoric stuff. It only gets confusing in the end.

Why did you pick me and chamber but not mention el simo?

Umbrage, this was never answered.

Are these the scum reads you referred to in post 109?

Is the vote in question chamber’s vote? Soras’ reaction:

el simo makes perfect sense. A 'random' vote is never random. He's giving more meaning to the made up way we use it than I normally do but its within reason. Easy wagon is too easy.

Unvote vote Sorasgoof

for a bad 4th vote.

I really hope this isn't serious. You're using the fact that I was the fourth on the wagon as a reason for voting me, with no other reasoning? Awwwwesome.

If it were serious, you'd have pointed out the others who also do not see the reasoning behind his "random" vote.

I’m looking at the very first sentence as evidence that he didn’t have too many concerns about it.

Not willing to put a vote on sorasgoof right now. Pie’s hunting appears to be town-driven rather than “Hey, let’s wagon someone without many votes, because people would expect scum to wagon people with a lot of votes”, so I can’t say I’d put it on him, either.

[el simo]

The 'scum points' I gave him were for a separate reason. I am going to reread him in context as soon as I get the chance to see how much truth there is to my early observation, but with new years 13 hours away I don't think it's going to be any time soon. Please hold out for it.

[ThAdmiral]

Ortiz (Wishy-washy on the matter)

Ortiz has actually been wishy-washy on a number of things. He voted el-simo at the start of the day, then flipped to having a slight-town read on el-simo and voted umbrage instead. Then he agreed with umbrage's vote on sora, but didn't take his vote off umbrage. Earlier he had expressed some suspicions of 3k (iso 20, 21), but when that wagon died down he decided that he wasn't suspicious of him any more (iso 23), and voted cyberbob instead.
He seems to be keeping his options open for most of the major wagons and has flip-flopped quite a few times.

vote: ortiz

[Cyberbob]

the problem with broadcasting your ~pure town reads~ is that (assuming you're town for a second) it tells scum who they can kill without being worried about eliminating a potential mislynch opportunity. it's anti-town as hell, dont do it please

I see your point. Although, not only am I just one player, but by making scumlists, the scum can narrow ideas down anyways... Meh, I'm not going to argue. I suppose you're right.

scumlists aren't terribly great either unless you make sure to keep in mind that there is a very high likelihood of you being wrong (and in doing so keep an open mind to the possibility of the people you are suspicious of being town) -

especially

on Day 1

[ortiz1193]

Ortiz (Wishy-washy on the matter)

Ortiz has actually been wishy-washy on a number of things. He voted el-simo at the start of the day, then flipped to having a slight-town read on el-simo and voted umbrage instead. Then he agreed with umbrage's vote on sora, but didn't take his vote off umbrage. Earlier he had expressed some suspicions of 3k (iso 20, 21), but when that wagon died down he decided that he wasn't suspicious of him any more (iso 23), and voted cyberbob instead.
He seems to be keeping his options open for most of the major wagons and has flip-flopped quite a few times.

vote: ortiz

You just took my play throughout this game completely out of context.

[ThAdmiral]

Well put it in to context for me then.

[diddin]

Prodding chamber.

[Umbrage]

I'm town and I can see you flipping scum and nothing else. So yeah.

this is the most retarded thing fyi

Reported.

- Umbrage: buddying hardcore with el simo

Two things I find really suspicious:

1. IP's switch to soras.
2. Cyberbob attacking IP after he switched. Defending your buddy?

[Umbrage]

Let’s look at Umbrage’s case on sorasgoof.

Those two last posts by him are a) wagoning the current target and b) leaving a back door open in case the tide turns.

We’ll look at A first. Umbrage’s stance is anti-wagon. Noted. Not a bad thing, I’m just waiting on him to trip up on it.

Wagons are fine. Wagoning for the sake of wagoning is not fine.

Maybe I should be voting you for phrasing the above to make me look scummy.

Spreading suspicion without commitment to a wagon. This can be taken as a willingness to vote me or a simple joke, depending on how everyone reacts.

A wagon’s something you “commit” to now.

That was fast.

Maybe we have different terms. Wagon to me means a series of votes on one player. You either believe the person you're voting is scummy, or you don't. Soras looks like he doesn't.

Now for B.

I wasn't worried about that, as evidenced by the way I treated it as a joke.

Observe how he uses a conveniently placed backdoor to excuse his actions.

Okay.

@all: No more joking/sarcasm/rhetoric stuff. It only gets confusing in the end.

Why did you pick me and chamber but not mention el simo?

Umbrage, this was never answered.

Are these the scum reads you referred to in post 109?

POOT PICTURE HERE!

Those reads were made a LONG time before I called an end to joking. It was still RVS, as I recall.

[ortiz1193]

First off, CB needs to quit attacking everyone, its pointless.

Second, the whole "posting town reads is anti-town!!" is terrible. If you don't think scum can figure out who the most town players are, then you've either never been scum, or you just aren't very good at it. It is not hard to find out who the obv town players are, and when one or two people post town reads, it isn't giving scum any advantage. Now it probably doesn't help town either, but there's no need to make a big deal out of it like it's actually helping scum. Scumlists almost help scum as much as townlists with that logic.

This is becoming less reliable as more people know about this tell, which by now is a lot.

This is important. I'm a strong advocate of caution vs. recklessness, but it has to be looked at in context. Both sides who are saying "caution is a scumtell" and "caution isn't a scumtell (you idiot)" are wrong.

---

Ortiz (Wishy-washy on the matter)

Where was I wishy washy at all. Point it out, I'm pretty sure I have clearly said Soras is scummy and second on my scumlist.

1)Ortiz has actually been wishy-washy on a number of things. 2)He voted el-simo at the start of the day, then flipped to having a slight-town read on el-simo and voted umbrage instead. 3)Then he agreed with umbrage's vote on sora, but didn't take his vote off umbrage. 4)Earlier he had expressed some suspicions of 3k (iso 20, 21), but when that wagon died down he decided that he wasn't suspicious of him any more (iso 23), and voted cyberbob instead.
He seems to be keeping his options open for most of the major wagons and has flip-flopped quite a few times.

vote: ortiz

1) I'm waiting on Olinea to actually point this out, and if he can't, then you just parroted his BS.

2) Not wishy-washy. As soon as I figured out what el simo was saying, and why he wasn't scummy, it made Umbrage scummy for pushing it as hard as he was.

3) The post in question:

^^good vote.

I'm content with my Umbrage vote at the moment, but TK is pretty scummy and I've had a bad feeling about Soras for a while. I'm really confident at least one of those 3 is scum. I'm gonna reread the 3 of them because I think I might prefer one of the other two lynches over Umbrage. Also, not sure what to think of CB. I get the scummiest vibe ever from him but I don't know if he's actually scum or if it's just his playstyle.

Note: Pie is not playing his scum meta at all. He could've changed, but I'm pretty convinced he's town at this point. I have a pretty good idea of what his scum meta is because I pretty much based mine off of it >_> (and I stalk his games).

Pretty sure it clearly says that I was suspicious of all of them, and I was going to reread, which is why I left my vote where it was.

4) The "suspicions" mentioned:

Pie: Go ahead and give us the case on why TK is scum. I see his lack of pro-town vibes, but I didn't see anything that screams scum in the ISO.

The scummiest thing TK has done is unvote as soon as you pressure him like that - he majorly caved right there.

I'm content with my Umbrage vote at the moment, but TK is pretty scummy and I've had a bad feeling about Soras for a while.

This is my favorite part. The first quote is hardly showing suspicion compared to the second one, where I did show suspicion. The second post is #324. Remember that reread I said I was going to do? Yeah, that happened 5 posts after this one. 5. So tell me please how the TK wagon "died down" in the 5 posts in between my suspicion and me saying that I don't think he's scum. Hint: It didn't. I reread the game, like I said I was going to in the previous post, and like I said in the post where I said TK was town.

Admiral added the "but when that wagon died down he decided that he wasn't suspicious of him any more" just to put me in a negative light. Misrepping, taking out of context, whatever you want to call it.

[ortiz1193]

Olinea: Do you have any scumreads? I've seen you defending all the top lynch candidates, but not calling anyone scum. Do you still think el simo is scum? (I think that's where your vote is)

I feel like you did this last game and you weren't town then. >_>

[Cyberbob]

2. Cyberbob attacking IP after he switched. Defending your buddy?

hehe yup totally

Second, the whole "posting town reads is anti-town!!" is terrible. If you don't think scum can figure out who the most town players are, then you've either never been scum, or you just aren't very good at it.

It's not about figuring out who the most

objectively

town players are so much as it is about figuring out who the

town

sees as being the most townish.

Scumlists almost help scum as much as townlists with that logic.

I already dealt with this (yes they can early on if you're not keeping an open mind)

2) Not wishy-washy. As soon as I figured out what el simo was saying, and why he wasn't scummy, it made Umbrage scummy for pushing it as hard as he was.

pushing something hard that you disagree with doesn't make someone scummy per se, it makes them in disagreement with you. it only becomes scummy if you think they're doing it in bad faith (which is not always the case unless you think town players are never ever incorrect)

[ortiz1193]

2) Not wishy-washy. As soon as I figured out what el simo was saying, and why he wasn't scummy, it made Umbrage scummy for pushing it as hard as he was.

pushing something hard that you disagree with doesn't make someone scummy per se, it makes them in disagreement with you. it only becomes scummy if you think they're doing it in bad faith (which is not always the case unless you think town players are never ever incorrect)

That's what I meant. At the time, it seemed like Umbrage was pushing an el simo lynch based on wording, which was scummy.

[Cyberbob]

hm ok then

[diddin]

TheLonging has requested replacement. I'm talking to Fugitive about hopefully replacing him.