Consulmaker II: the Pyrrhic War - Game over.

[The Fonz]

ribwich 521 is dumb, because the Senator PM includes the word townie. Of course, rib didn't get that pm so it's marginally justifiable, but still.

would you see rib's post as scummy if he wasn't confirmed town?

Again, same caveat as with my predecessor, but no, that's why I called it dumb rather than scummy.

[Nathanael]

1) Scum are informed, town are not. Therefore, they may well be some wrinkle scum are aware of and I'm not.

this is extremely unlikely, considering that this isn't a bastard game and ribwich has been outed for 2,5 days now without anything bad happening.
also, it wouldn't match with the overall mechanic.

2) If not CCed, Jack is able to benefit from additional influence, and freedom from attack entirely. This removes the 'do we bus' quandary from his buddies.

not true. the real consulmaker can choose to CC as soon as he sees that Jack is trying to abuse his power. besides, scum will never hope for this, because it is obvious they will be counterclaimed.

3) If he

is

counterclaimed, this causes town to waste an absolute ton of time discussing how to resolve the consulmaker issue, during which time they are not scumhunting.

I grant you that scum has a small advantage here. but even while discussing the consulmaker issue a lot of reactions, stances can be made. especially day one, when most of the posts are spam, having something (even if only marginally connected with scumhunting) to discuss on is almost as good as out-of-the-blue-scumhunting. so this holds little value to scum if you consider this correctly

4) Offering himself up as an early bus to his team-mates,

this point is stupid: first, a bus like that would give almost no towncred to a scum bussing. if the plan was to bus Jack, not having him attract the attention with a fakeclaim first would have made the town-cred reward much bigger for the bussing scum. second, planned bussing this early is rarely a good play for scum. sometimes scum have to bus or think it is strategically good if the buddy they are bussing is weak or in risks to get into a tight spot anyway. it is however better to avoid bussing if possible. No scumteam, imo, would go into day 1 with the plan to bus one of their members.

and handing out a couple of mislynches because there's always going to be SOMEONE who bites on the wifom.

this also makes no sense. how do you think attracting the attention to a scummember makes it easier to mislynch someone? if someone is a weak target, correct strategy for scum would be to go after them right away, instead of a) risking a scum and b) shifting away focus from the designated target.

Primate: I assume by 'run cover' you mean try to draw the NK and protect the real one? What is the value of that in this setup?
...
5) The usual benefit of outing as many town roles as possible as early as possible.

what value does 5) have for scum?

6) The Kaleidoscope gambit.

I think this is highly unlikely too. yes, it is a possibility but a) it risks one of the strongest teammembers (a GF), b) it is very very rare. I think this possibility can be disregarded.

so, we have seem almost all of your points don't bring any significant advantage to scum, and this extremely small advantages still have to be weighted up against the likely possibility of being lynched on the spot or a day later.
also, the "town doesn't know there are two towns, scum does"-kind of reasoning seems at least possible for a townie to think of. I might be the type of reasoning I would make.

Sens; so scummy early on, yet so right right now.

do you still think Sens is scum? would you be comfortable with his lynch? Would you actively try to achieve it?

Unfortunately, I didn't veto the execution because I had a great idea, but was late coming home from class and missed my chance.

I just found this too, following TF's post. would you mind stating what that "great idea" was?

[SensFan]

Yes, I have a way to figure out which of them is lying by D3. No, I don't think its best to divulge it until just before we execute someone today.

Sens, do you mind explaining your plan? Also, could you please tell why it wasn't a good idea to divulge it? and why did you forget about this later, not following through with it?

That was explained ages and ages ago. Pay some attention, please. Even a semblance of reading my posts would be nice.

Unfortunately, I didn't veto the execution because I had a great idea, but was late coming home from class and missed my chance.

I just found this too, following TF's post. would you mind stating what that "great idea" was?

Not a goddamn chance. Again, if you pretended to read my posts it would help your credibility. If you are reading my posts, you shouldn't be trying to get me to explain this when it's already been agreed to that there's no benefit to telling every future Consul 'This is how you make sure you get to execute anyone you want'.

[The Fonz]

Sens, you're not voting tribune. Can you support a Scot or Fonz tribwagon?

[The Fonz]

(In case anyone is unclear on that, my no1 priority for tribune is someone who will not veto Jack).

[SensFan]

I can support either, though if I had to pick it would be Fonz. Lemme go check the current vote count; I want to try and get 2 people above rib.

[SensFan]

Vote: Fonz

.

[Nathanael]

If you were town, you'd see the possibility that Dram wasn't expecting to have his bluff called because he was expecting an easy execution of you.

I don't think this attack is fair. his point there is legitimate and I would have hard time seeing that possibility too. it's always easier to talk after you know the results

Hmmmm. I get a vibe of 'Hey dumb noob, pay attention to how I buddied your predecessor!' here.

Yes, this was the think I had noted too. However I feel his response post continued with that trend in a way that made it look more like his overall style. But I went to look for some other games, and I found only one scum-game, where he posts quite a similar amount of content. While this isn't a scumtell, it made me retract my towntell.


UNVOTE: VOTE: ribwich

[The Fonz]

1) Scum are informed, town are not. Therefore, they may well be some wrinkle scum are aware of and I'm not.

this is extremely unlikely, considering that this isn't a bastard game and ribwich has been outed for 2,5 days now without anything bad happening.
also, it wouldn't match with the overall mechanic.

In the original consulmaker, the SK was completely screwed by a GF mechanic he hadn't anticipated.

2) If not CCed, Jack is able to benefit from additional influence, and freedom from attack entirely. This removes the 'do we bus' quandary from his buddies.

not true. the real consulmaker can choose to CC as soon as he sees that Jack is trying to abuse his power. besides, scum will never hope for this, because it is obvious they will be counterclaimed.

You're acting like it would be obvious Jack was abusing it. Not everyone is Sens.

3) If he

is

counterclaimed, this causes town to waste an absolute ton of time discussing how to resolve the consulmaker issue, during which time they are not scumhunting.

I grant you that scum has a small advantage here. but even while discussing the consulmaker issue a lot of reactions, stances can be made. especially day one, when most of the posts are spam, having something (even if only marginally connected with scumhunting) to discuss on is almost as good as out-of-the-blue-scumhunting. so this holds little value to scum if you consider this correctly

I just disagree. Time spent discussing plans and suchlike is rarely productive: see Spyre's 'Just fucking pick one and get on with it' diatribe.

4) Offering himself up as an early bus to his team-mates,

this point is stupid: first, a bus like that would give almost no towncred to a scum bussing. if the plan was to bus Jack, not having him attract the attention with a fakeclaim first would have made the town-cred reward much bigger for the bussing scum. second, planned bussing this early is rarely a good play for scum. sometimes scum have to bus or think it is strategically good if the buddy they are bussing is weak or in risks to get into a tight spot anyway. it is however better to avoid bussing if possible. No scumteam, imo, would go into day 1 with the plan to bus one of their members.

Several games' worth of experience beg to differ.

and handing out a couple of mislynches because there's always going to be SOMEONE who bites on the wifom.

this also makes no sense. how do you think attracting the attention to a scummember makes it easier to mislynch someone? if someone is a weak target, correct strategy for scum would be to go after them right away, instead of a) risking a scum and b) shifting away focus from the designated target.

Scumbuddies, because they know what the flip will be, are able to position themselves to look town as a result of it. Town, being uninformed, will likely see at least a couple of members act in such a way as to make themselves look hella scummy.

5) The usual benefit of outing as many town roles as possible as early as possible.

what value does 5) have for scum?

OMG, you are kidding me, right?

6) The Kaleidoscope gambit.

I think this is highly unlikely too. yes, it is a possibility but a) it risks one of the strongest teammembers (a GF), b) it is very very rare. I think this possibility can be disregarded.

The strength of the GF is in his investigation immunity. This gambit plays to that strength. Also, rare, but no so much that it can be disregarded.

so, we have seem almost all of your points don't bring any significant advantage to scum, and this extremely small advantages still have to be weighted up against the likely possibility of being lynched on the spot or a day later.

Except that it's NOT THAT LIKELY at all, because SOMEONE ALWAYS, ALWAYS MAKES THIS KIND OF ARGUMENT YOU ARE TRYING RIGHT NOW. Look at the situation I'm in right now with trying to push Jackscum. Does this really look that easy to you?

Sens; so scummy early on, yet so right right now.

do you still think Sens is scum? would you be comfortable with his lynch? Would you actively try to achieve it?

Read the damn post. It's more than clear where I stand on Sens: if Jack weren't here, I'd be torn between Sens and Magua. I wouldn't veto either, but I'm not entirely sure which I'd actively push.

[Nathanael]

Yes, I have a way to figure out which of them is lying by D3. No, I don't think its best to divulge it until just before we execute someone today.

Sens, do you mind explaining your plan? Also, could you please tell why it wasn't a good idea to divulge it? and why did you forget about this later, not following through with it?

That was explained ages and ages ago. Pay some attention, please. Even a semblance of reading my posts would be nice.

I assume it was this.
If yes, what about that plan did you think was not a good idea to divulge earlier?

Unfortunately, I didn't veto the execution because I had a great idea, but was late coming home from class and missed my chance.

I just found this too, following TF's post. would you mind stating what that "great idea" was?

Not a goddamn chance. Again, if you pretended to read my posts it would help your credibility. If you are reading my posts, you shouldn't be trying to get me to explain this when it's already been agreed to that there's no benefit to telling every future Consul 'This is how you make sure you get to execute anyone you want'.

mind linking to where this has been agreed and by whom? must have missed it.
also, could you please explicit your point? I can't understand it.

also, Sens, you still need to tell me whether you think I am scum or not.

@Fonz, doesn't it make you rethink your opinion that SensFan, the most scummy player around, is trying to lynch Jack?

[SensFan]

Would you look at that. Looks like chesskid may actually have been right about the fact that one of the D1 Consuls was Scum.

If you're actually somehow Town, Nathaneal, then please step away from this game for the rest of today. Tomorrow, take a deep breath and look at your posts anew. You'll see that you're not making any sense re: Jack, and you're asking me for things that I either explained weeks ago, or else explained why there's no way in hell I'm going to expand.

Pre-post: Just saw Nathan's last post. All the above applies even more. Especially when Fonz says "I want Jack lynched, if he wasn't here it would be Magnus/Sens", and Nathan's response is to imply that Fonz called me "the most scummy player around".

[The Fonz]

Vote: The Fonz

And Tasky, before you start, it's quite clear who I'd be voting if I weren't voting myself, and I'm more viable than him.

Preview edit: Not really. People who try to pull the kind of shit Jack's doing are so overwhelmingly often scum, AND I have a scum read on him even absent the gambit, and Sens has a history of supporting LAL so would likely get caught if he didn't, whether or not Jack is his buddy.

[Flameaxe]

Tribune Votecount

Ribwich [5] (Nathanael, Lowell, Ribwich, Magua, Jack)
Parama [3] (Porochaz, Parama, Scotmany12)
The Fonz [2] (Sensfan, The Fonz)
Feysal [1] (SpyreX)

Roughly two hours till deadline as well. Looking for a replacement for Leon Belmont.

[SensFan]

Nathaneal is on the ribwuch wagon twice, BBM.

I prefer Fonz to Parama, but Parama to rib. FWIW.

[Nathanael]

1) Scum are informed, town are not. Therefore, they may well be some wrinkle scum are aware of and I'm not.

this is extremely unlikely, considering that this isn't a bastard game and ribwich has been outed for 2,5 days now without anything bad happening.
also, it wouldn't match with the overall mechanic.

In the original consulmaker, the SK was completely screwed by a GF mechanic he hadn't anticipated.

ok, how about we lynch Jack as soon as there is any evidence scum have any advantage from knowing the consulmaker?

2) If not CCed, Jack is able to benefit from additional influence, and freedom from attack entirely. This removes the 'do we bus' quandary from his buddies.

not true. the real consulmaker can choose to CC as soon as he sees that Jack is trying to abuse his power. besides, scum will never hope for this, because it is obvious they will be counterclaimed.

You're acting like it would be obvious Jack was abusing it. Not everyone is Sens.

don't misrep me. abused = do anything ribwich thinks is scum-motivated. don't forget that Jack can't use his "confirmedness" at all, since he knows there is someone out there who can bust it any moment.

3) If he

is

counterclaimed, this causes town to waste an absolute ton of time discussing how to resolve the consulmaker issue, during which time they are not scumhunting.

I grant you that scum has a small advantage here. but even while discussing the consulmaker issue a lot of reactions, stances can be made. especially day one, when most of the posts are spam, having something (even if only marginally connected with scumhunting) to discuss on is almost as good as out-of-the-blue-scumhunting. so this holds little value to scum if you consider this correctly

I just disagree. Time spent discussing plans and suchlike is rarely productive: see Spyre's 'Just fucking pick one and get on with it' diatribe.

I didn't say it is productive. The loss in time is not so big as you paint it. also, don't forget, D1 has a long deadline and if it hadn't been for me extending the Katsuki lynch, it would have ended much earlier. this shows there isn't that much time scum can gain.

4) Offering himself up as an early bus to his team-mates,

this point is stupid: first, a bus like that would give almost no towncred to a scum bussing. if the plan was to bus Jack, not having him attract the attention with a fakeclaim first would have made the town-cred reward much bigger for the bussing scum. second, planned bussing this early is rarely a good play for scum. sometimes scum have to bus or think it is strategically good if the buddy they are bussing is weak or in risks to get into a tight spot anyway. it is however better to avoid bussing if possible. No scumteam, imo, would go into day 1 with the plan to bus one of their members.

Several games' worth of experience beg to differ.

this feels like plain appeal to authority to me. might EXPLAINING your stance instead of just arguing your superiority?

Scumbuddies, because they know what the flip will be, are able to position themselves to look town as a result of it. Town, being uninformed, will likely see at least a couple of members act in such a way as to make themselves look hella scummy.

Isn't this true for EVERY situation in mafia? isn't this what the whole game is all about?

5) The usual benefit of outing as many town roles as possible as early as possible.

what value does 5) have for scum?

OMG, you are kidding me, right?

no. a) how is such a gambit supposed to out any powerrole besides the consulmaker? b) how is outing the consulmaker any good to scum considering your stance I quoted?

6) The Kaleidoscope gambit.

I think this is highly unlikely too. yes, it is a possibility but a) it risks one of the strongest teammembers (a GF), b) it is very very rare. I think this possibility can be disregarded.

The strength of the GF is in his investigation immunity. This gambit plays to that strength. Also, rare, but no so much that it can be disregarded.

just because something is possible, it doesn't mean it is probable. this is quite a common logial fallacy. Also, I could tell you a lot of other gambit's that

could

happen, but that doesn't in any way mean each of them is likely. Since it was cited, primate's cop-gambit as town, shows it is possible. does that make it probable? no.

so, we have seem almost all of your points don't bring any significant advantage to scum, and this extremely small advantages still have to be weighted up against the likely possibility of being lynched on the spot or a day later.

Except that it's NOT THAT LIKELY at all, because SOMEONE ALWAYS, ALWAYS MAKES THIS KIND OF ARGUMENT YOU ARE TRYING RIGHT NOW. Look at the situation I'm in right now with trying to push Jackscum. Does this really look that easy to you?

Well, it is likely. don't forget Jack owes his life to ribwich's action, which was absolutely not likely in any way. ribwich's action was quite a surprise to everybody and this shows that the

likely

outcome of yesterday should have been a Jack-lynch.

Also, please don't forget the extremely unlikely scumconnection Jack-dram-xreckx

[scotmany12]

Magua, do you have any plans at all to read day one?

could you sum up the main reads you got from day 1? Which parts do you especially recommend to read?

The constant contrived bussing between Dram and Reck did catch my eye. And sens was very scummy day one, plus the whole situation with jack. He should read all of the first day. Just like Fonz did. Are you saying its not beneficial for him to read all of day one?

Why are people saying it is extremely unlikely that fonz is scum with dram and reck? What have any of them done to make it seem like jack could not be scum with them?

Fonz: Nath isn't going to change his opinion. He is so blatantly wrong, but he is being so stubborn and refuses to understand anything that is being said to him.

[Nathanael]

Would you look at that. Looks like chesskid may actually have been right about the fact that one of the D1 Consuls was Scum.

If you're actually somehow Town, Nathaneal, then please step away from this game for the rest of today. Tomorrow, take a deep breath and look at your posts anew. You'll see that you're not making any sense re: Jack, and you're asking me for things that I either explained weeks ago, or else explained why there's no way in hell I'm going to expand.

lol.
you are not bullying me. you are not being helpful. I asked you a thing, because I must have missed it, but you don't show absolutely ANY will to cooperate. I will look for it, I just hoped you might avoid making me look though your 10 pages iso.
If you "explained them weeks ago", why not just link to the post where you explained them? if you explained why there is no way you are going to expand, why not link to that post too?

Pre-post: Just saw Nathan's last post. All the above applies even more. Especially when Fonz says "I want Jack lynched, if he wasn't here it would be Magnus/Sens", and Nathan's response is to imply that Fonz called me "the most scummy player around".

where do I imply that Fonz called you the most scummy player?

I

called you the most scummy player.

[Nathanael]

Spoiler: EBWOP, Quote fail

Would you look at that. Looks like chesskid may actually have been right about the fact that one of the D1 Consuls was Scum.

If you're actually somehow Town, Nathaneal, then please step away from this game for the rest of today. Tomorrow, take a deep breath and look at your posts anew. You'll see that you're not making any sense re: Jack, and you're asking me for things that I either explained weeks ago, or else explained why there's no way in hell I'm going to expand.

lol.
you are not bullying me. you are not being helpful. I asked you a thing, because I must have missed it, but you don't show absolutely ANY will to cooperate. I will look for it, I just hoped you might avoid making me look though your 10 pages iso.
If you "explained them weeks ago", why not just link to the post where you explained them? if you explained why there is no way you are going to expand, why not link to that post too?

Pre-post: Just saw Nathan's last post. All the above applies even more. Especially when Fonz says "I want Jack lynched, if he wasn't here it would be Magnus/Sens", and Nathan's response is to imply that Fonz called me "the most scummy player around".

where do I imply that Fonz called you the most scummy player?

I

called you the most scummy player.

[Nathanael]

Are you saying its not beneficial for him to read all of day one?

no, I'm not saying that, I was just asking. But I do think skimming the day should be enough, especially since later posts tend to pick out the most important parts anyway in form of quotes/references

Why are people saying it is extremely unlikely that fonz is scum with dram and reck? What have any of them done to make it seem like jack could not be scum with them?

I assume you mean Jack? there are other things too, but for me this is enough. As I already explained this is a quite typical scum maneuver: vote a townie, FoS a buddy.

[The Fonz]

ok, how about we lynch Jack as soon as there is any evidence scum have any advantage from knowing the consulmaker?[/quote]

So we lynch Jack when town gets the informed minority's information?

.

don't misrep me. abused = do anything ribwich thinks is scum-motivated. don't forget that Jack can't use his "confirmedness" at all, since he knows there is someone out there who can bust it any moment.[/quote]

I'm not misrepping you. How is it going to be clear early on what is and isn't scum-motivated?

Several games' worth of experience beg to differ.

this feels like plain appeal to authority to me. might EXPLAINING your stance instead of just arguing your superiority?

How exactly am I going to argue against your assertion that you don't see scum doing it other than to point out that I've actually seen scum do it really quite often? Heck, you saw Reck and Dram come out the gate with a big bus IN THIS GAME.

Isn't this true for EVERY situation in mafia? isn't this what the whole game is all about?

When it's a scum engineered situation, it's easier for them to manipulate it than if it's one that's come about as a surprise to them because a town player did something unexpected.

a) how is such a gambit supposed to out any powerrole besides the consulmaker? b) how is outing the consulmaker any good to scum considering your stance I quoted?

It's not necessarily designed to out any OTHER roles. But knowing whether the cmaker is malleable to your ends is useful, and every single outed town role helps narrow down the power role candidates.

just because something is possible, it doesn't mean it is probable. this is quite a common logial fallacy.

Tell me where I actually used that fallacy you're accusing me of? It's happened before, it would perfectly explain Jack's behaviour, therefore it has to be considered.

Well, it is likely. don't forget Jack owes his life to ribwich's action, which was absolutely not likely in any way. ribwich's action was quite a surprise to everybody and this shows that the

likely

outcome of yesterday should have been a Jack-lynch.

Really? Because every time scum pulls something like this, there always seems to be a large bloc who take your line. I don't think it was in any way unlikely a priori that one of them got into one of the four positions that could veto his death.

Also, please don't forget the extremely unlikely scumconnection Jack-dram-xreckx

How unlikely, exactly? We already saw Dram is bushappy.

@Scot: I understand that, but I feel I have to defend MY stance, too. Just because Nate isn't a swing voter doesn't mean there aren't any.

[SpyreX]

No one sees Feysal-town ooze?

Boo.

Unvote: Vote: The Fonz

657: Hey SpyreX, can you elaborate on this? Why do you think chamber was NKed?

I thought this was pretty clear?

D1 had two very clear town: Primate and Chamber.

Considering the starting options (PR Hunting / Lobotomization / Town-killin / Saving ones Hide) for scum choices it was fairly clear one of, if not both of them, were high-priority NK targets (I wont be surprised to find out the other kill that didn't happen was either protected on Primate or both shot at Chamber).

NOW, this Jack business. Again, with Dram AND Reck being scum I'd be really, really freaking surprised to see him flip Pyrrhic. An SK is suicide even under the GF-SK clause. So, Jack's flipping scum only if there's two scum groups. IS that worth the shot over others that want it so bad it hurts (Magua)?

[The Fonz]

LOL just noticed that excepting Ribwich himself, Nate is the LEAST SCUMMY person on the rib tribwagon.

Basically, it all boils down to this. People who lie about their roles absolutely do not get the benefit of the doubt, ever.

SpyreX, if you oppose a Jack lynch, why do you support me for trib?

[SpyreX]

Woooah, Woah.

I don't 'oppose' a Jack lynch. I'm talkin about it. I'll kill him without hesistation.

I just want to kill others a bit more.

AND I'd much rather take someone who's actually playing and discussing versus "OMG CONF TOWN / VETO" every day of the week.

[scotmany12]

Again, with Dram AND Reck being scum I'd be really, really freaking surprised to see him flip Pyrrhic.

I still don't understand why people are thinking this. Nath's explanation did nothing for me. Why is is so farfetched to think that Dram could have been bussing both of them?

[Flameaxe]

Tribune Votecount

Ribwich [5] (Nathanael, Lowell, Ribwich, Magua, Jack)
Parama [3] (Porochaz, Parama, Scotmany12)
The Fonz [3] (Sensfan, The Fonz, SpyreX)

Roughly one hour till deadline as well. Looking for a replacement for Leon Belmont.