Blackest Night Mafia (GAME OVER!)

[SpyreX]

@SpyreX: Maybe I'm dumb or I missed it, but could you re-explain why you didn't submit town/town instead of town/sk if you wanted to be town?

I said, and I'm pretty sure you quoted it, I went "I want to be town, but SK could be a hoot as a backup" thus.

---

Andy-andy is p town. Not of the level of others, but.

[tanstalas]

@tanstalas (130): Okay, I guess. But I still don't understand why you would move your vote from SensFan to Andrius if you truly believed that the lower numbered players have the highest probability of being scum.

Andrius was almost as low as SensFan, and the fact that Andrius' first color choices included an invalid color and had to resend them in made me wonder if maybe SSBF (who eventually turned into SensFan) actually would be "in before" Andrius. There was also the post by RC in the signup thread that Andrius was just going to get the 'leftovers' of what everyone else didn't get.

Plum vs. tanstalas 161 - I can go with this, at least after I see what Kdub has to say.

Looking forward to being grilled by the 'masterhunter vi' As long as you give me something I can respond to instead of just limping in and voting me *peers at Jack* without contributing anything I am perfectly fine with that. I realize my play has been less than stellar thus far with a bunch of head scratching statements.

[xRECKONERx]

dramonic needs to contribute more

so on that note imma let him get on the computer now and say some stuff

whoo irl prods ftw

[Jack]

@SpyreX: Maybe I'm dumb or I missed it, but could you re-explain why you didn't submit town/town instead of town/sk if you wanted to be town?

I said, and I'm pretty sure you quoted it, I went "I want to be town, but SK could be a hoot as a backup" thus.

That doesn't make any sense. Picking orange 2nd is obviously just a throwaway choice. So did you lie about the color choice?

[dramonic]

@AGM's questions:

1) nope
2) I'd probably shoot xvart given a chance =P
3) What the fuck kind of question is that. Cheating is FAIL!

at the very least in a multiplayer game...

4) I dont know, prolly 50-50
5) see above

@Vi: Please stop becomin like Glork, it's unhealthy.

I'd shoot myself in the head if I'm a N0 Vig. But it's a shame that I'm not ( or am I? )

yeah... no.

FoS: npiau

SensFan is going to be pissed about something or other regardless.

I find that more than a little unfair, just for the record.

It's still true ;P

@Vi vs AGM: This debate is stupid, stop it both of you.

@Sens vs MoI: Scummalicious =D
now which is scummier, the guy who goes ''woe is me, the mod hates me and is out to smite me because he's nothing better to do'', or the one going ''Since the person you are replacing is likely to be town, and you say he chose scum and say you are town, you must be scum!''...

Vote: MoI

This will do for now.

[Toogeloo]

dramonic needs to contribute more

so on that note imma let him get on the computer now and say some stuff

whoo irl prods ftw

I wouldn't know, since I am not the host, but how would this be different than PMing a player and asking them to post (which afaik, is modkillable)?


This also raises another thought in my mind, something that is irrelevant now, bu may be relevant down the road, given the size of the signup thread. I wonder if players PMed each other ahead of time and tried to coordinate putting the same colors in to try and get on the same team.

[Kdub]

You stated in a matter of fact tone that the scum groups don't know who each other are, I was hypothesizing about the possible setup. The key here for my reasoning of switching to you is that you are coming across that you know for a fact the scum teams do not know each other - which if you were town you would not know; you could only surmise.

The scum teams not knowing who is in the other scum team is a reasonable assumption that a player with any amount of experience on this site will make. Seriously, point me to the last (or any, for that matter) game on this site where a scum group

knows at the start of the game

who the other scum team is. Also explain how that could be a balanced game in any way, shape, or form.

That you would vote me for this ridiculous reason just looks like you are following the biggest wagon and had to throw on some excuse to justify it.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: tanstalas

Katsuki - No idea. Somehow not as annoying as ecksReck's whining, but only barely.
npiau - He's trolling the thread. I've seen him play as Town before and he did quite the opposite, but I don't know if what he's doing is alignment-relevant.
Starbuck - I played with her before. As a Neutral party she basically fluffposted the entire 100+page game, from what I recall. That she's doing it again here doesn't particularly surprise me. Someone who knows her meta better than I do can tell me if she does that as Town as well.

You initially voted me for lack of content based on three posts that happened within the first 24 hours of the game. My first thought was, "whatever, it's early in the game and it's probably as much for Vi to go on as he could possibly have at this stage". But your continued pushing on my wagon after that, even though I wasn't around and didn't post for a little bit after my third post, had me wondering why you decided to single me out for that reason. I picked a group of players and asked your opinion of them because at the time, I feel like they had contributed about as much (or less) content as I had, yet you were completely silent on them. Your stated opinions of them seem fairly neutral/non-committal, which is in contrast to your opinion of me. Tell me how those players had contributed more content in your opinion, because your reads do not look consistent.

Also, what changed between this:

Vote stays on SensFan because, again, there's no reason to whine this much if you got the alignment you wanted but not the colors. Do I think he would complain this much as scum for being scum? I'm fairly sure there's precedent.

and this:

That's actually interesting information if true. It likely means that too many people requested scum.

That's what I wanted to know.
Unvote: SensFan
Vote: Kdub (L-12)

You added the qualifier "if true", but gave no reason why you thought it was true despite implying that Sens was scum in your previous post.

[Vi]

Katsuki - No idea. Somehow not as annoying as ecksReck's whining, but only barely.
npiau - He's trolling the thread. I've seen him play as Town before and he did quite the opposite, but I don't know if what he's doing is alignment-relevant.
Starbuck - I played with her before. As a Neutral party she basically fluffposted the entire 100+page game, from what I recall. That she's doing it again here doesn't particularly surprise me. Someone who knows her meta better than I do can tell me if she does that as Town as well.

You initially voted me for lack of content based on three posts that happened within the first 24 hours of the game. My first thought was, "whatever, it's early in the game and it's probably as much for Vi to go on as he could possibly have at this stage". But your continued pushing on my wagon after that, even though I wasn't around and didn't post for a little bit after my third post, had me wondering why you decided to single me out for that reason. I picked a group of players and asked your opinion of them because at the time, I feel like they had contributed about as much (or less) content as I had, yet you were completely silent on them. Your stated opinions of them seem fairly neutral/non-committal, which is in contrast to your opinion of me. Tell me how those players had contributed more content in your opinion, because your reads do not look consistent.

Let's talk about what KIND of content.

Post 0 is useless.
Post 1 votes SpyreX for terrible reasoning.
Post 2 is useless.

You're beneath the norma.

Posts 3 and 4 aren't particularly redeeming. SensFan didn't out his colors (so much as what they WEREN'T). SpyreX vote is still lame. Andrius-Town isn't particularly groundbreaking, and coaching him after saying this doesn't look great. IGMEOY on SensFan is a lot of words to essentially say nothing of import. tanstalas' vote on you is indeed very bad.

Also, what changed between this:
<stuff>
You added the qualifier "if true", but gave no reason why you thought it was true despite implying that Sens was scum in your previous post.

I expected ScumFan to be complaining about being scum. I got the opposite of what I expected. I'm p r e t t y sure I said this already.

----

Toogeloo - While there is an integrity issue here - sort of similar to how people don't like Plum and Pomegranate playing in the same games - proposing that people intentionally chose to team up before the game started pretty much undermines the integrity of the entire site, since we're playing on the honor system.

Although I'm sure some people would do it anyway. <_<

dramonic - More like I should have started being like Glork several months ago

[xRECKONERx]

dramonic needs to contribute more

so on that note imma let him get on the computer now and say some stuff

whoo irl prods ftw

I wouldn't know, since I am not the host, but how would this be different than PMing a player and asking them to post (which afaik, is modkillable)?

fishing for a modkill
noted

[Andrius]

Tanstalas is focusing too much on the scumteam mechanics. NO, they are NOT going to co-operate here. 8:16:1 is just lol-worthy. (Unless we all PRs then go BOOM BOOM POW drop 'dem fuckers dead)

'Ugh. Seriously? If it wasn't part of a role PM, then it should be public info.
Wait, is that the line you belayed? If so, then nevermind.

Yes, that was belayed.
And if I fail to spell out your whole name in the quote tags, it'll probably just be "KK". Just for future reference.

xREckx sheeping too?

Also, do you understand why submitting purple was stupid? In the Blackest Night/Green Lantern universe, there are two shades of purple. Indigo and Violet.

I FORGOT IT WASN'T A COLOR. I MEANT ONE OF THOSE TWO AND PUT PURPLE. /end discussion

The Stove is funny at best. Leaning scum, sorry.

Jack is as Jack was.

OK STOVE HERE IT GOES:
The Large Theme Queue post for this game said that out of all the colors (besides orange I infer) the intent was for 4 of each color with 2 PRs and 2 Vanilla. So if we sit here outing groups of 4 (plus lying scum) then we would
1) possibly catch a small group of townies if no scum claims that color
2) as time goes on, out PRs and Vanillas by the deaths of their brethren.

Claiming choices (along with AGM's question) would out colors.

p.s. Jack its from the large theme queue. I linked to it in the sighup thread.

I wonder if players PMed each other ahead of time and tried to coordinate putting the same colors in to try and get on the same team.

That'd only work if they were guaranteed alignment-confirmation.
Scum/MASONS
I'd *consider it* to be Masons with someone I work well with, but probably wouldn't do it. :/

Andrius-Town isn't particularly groundbreaking, and

coaching him after saying this doesn't look great.

Say what?

[ReaperCharlie]

Vote Count

tanstalas [6] - Katsuki, SpyreX, Kublai Khan, Plum, Jack, Kdub

Kdub [5] - Vi, Fate, Andrius, tanstalas, xRECKONERx

SensFan [3]

- AlmasterGM, MagnaofIllusion, nopointinactingup

Andrius [1]

- Starbuck

Katsuki [1]

- SensFan

MagnaofIllusion [1]

- dramonic

SpyreX [1]

- xvart

Toogeloo [1]

- Guderian

xRECKONERx [1]

- KageLord

Not voting [5]

- Dekes, Kast, Stephoscope, The Stove, Toogeloo

With 25 alive, it is 13 to lynch. Deadline is January 21, 2011.

[Jack]

Awesome, there's a tantsalas wagon.

Also thanks andrius, glad to know I'm not hallucinating things.

[Dekes]

Ahoy, everyone.

-> rereading...

[Kdub]

Vi, you didn't address my concern. I know that you think my first three posts lacked content. I am asking why you singled me out over other players who you claim to have mostly neutral/no reads on who I think contributed less at that point. In particular, explain why those players posted more content, in your opinion.

I expected ScumFan to be complaining about being scum. I got the opposite of what I expected. I'm p r e t t y sure I said this already.

What? Regardless of his alignment, did you expect him to say that the mods gave him anything other than a town role?

[tanstalas]

The scum teams not knowing who is in the other scum team is a reasonable assumption that a player with any amount of experience on this site will make. Seriously, point me to the last (or any, for that matter) game on this site where a scum group

knows at the start of the game

who the other scum team is. Also explain how that could be a balanced game in any way, shape, or form.

Did you even read my post? I said assuming we have 8 scum members then yes they most likely do not know each other. If there is say a scum team of red and another of yellow with say 2 and 3 or 3 and 3 on each team then I see no reason why they wouldn't know of each other. They are the same mafia group, just split up because there are two 'scum' colors.

That you would vote me for this ridiculous reason just looks like you are following the biggest wagon and had to throw on some excuse to justify it.

I don't like voting people based on just what others say even if I agree with them, if a lot of people tend to think someone is scum I will look at them and try to find something else that looks scummy. Anyone that has played with me where I was town knows I do this. If you do not believe me go meta some games of me where I was town and you will see that I usually at least contribute something unique before hopping on a wagon.

And you voting your biggest counterwagon with the only reason given is that I do not know if the scum groups can communicate is laughable, especially since I explained my reasoning on it (that you seem to have failed to read)

P-edit: Hmm, seems Andrius didn't understand what I was trying to say either as he is also referencing a 8:16:1 setup. Did anyone understand that I was saying that the two scum teams may be able to communicate based on the fact that there may not be 8 scum?

p-edit(2) - Yeah there is a wagon on me, did you really not realize that? I'm really not sure why there is, well, I know Katsuki always votes me, SpyreX voted me for some reason he doesn't want to share and I think I addressed everyone else's concerns, but I guess not satisfactorily

[Jack]

p-edit(2) - Yeah there is a wagon on me, did you really not realize that? I'm really not sure why there is, well, I know Katsuki always votes me, SpyreX voted me for some reason he doesn't want to share and I think I addressed everyone else's concerns, but I guess not satisfactorily

I guess not, SCUM.

[Vi]

Vi, you didn't address my concern. I know that you think my first three posts lacked content. I am asking why you singled me out over other players who you claim to have mostly neutral/no reads on who I think contributed less at that point. In particular, explain why those players posted more content, in your opinion.

You were actually TRYING to produce content, and failed.
That's scummier (read: that's something scum are more likely to do) than not producing any at all. Otherwise I would be pointlessly chastising the likes of Fate and xRx and whoever else is being lame and unhelpful for the sake of being lame and unhelpful.

I expected ScumFan to be complaining about being scum. I got the opposite of what I expected. I'm p r e t t y sure I said this already.

What? Regardless of his alignment, did you expect him to say that the mods gave him anything other than a town role?

Given that this is SensFan and he's upset with his role, I'm fairly positive there's precedent.

[Jack]

I read sens in ISO, it seems like he's town then. Or else it was an awesome planned gambit with believable acting.

[Kdub]

Special Rules:
1. You know that Violet, Green, Blue, and Indigo are all part of the good faction.

You know that Red, Orange, and Yellow are all different evil factions.

You also know that there is only one Orange Lantern.

Try again, tans.

That's scummier (read: that's something scum are more likely to do) than not producing any at all.

Don't really agree, but if this is the source of your issue with me, I'm not sure I can say anything that will change your mind.

Given that this is SensFan and he's upset with his role, I'm fairly positive there's precedent.

I guess I don't know what precedent you are referring to. Has he ruined games in the past by claiming scum?

[Vi]

Given that this is SensFan and he's upset with his role, I'm fairly positive there's precedent.

I guess I don't know what precedent you are referring to. Has he ruined games in the past by claiming scum?

Not "ruined", but if he wants out, he gets out.

[xvart]

Welp, assuming sens is telling the truth I don't even have to ask my question because this game obviously doesn't follow the same methodology that others of this variant would. Considering I'm not the only one who has ran draft variants here and I'm prettyyyyy sure that none of them would give out things if they weren't picked (like SK for example ohhh shiii) well then the like I said albeit small help in knowing orange isn't there isn't there at all.

Again, based on your experience co modding a alignment selection game did you think nobody would pick third party? And again, how does you getting your first draft pick ensure you would know if there was a serial killer or not? I cannot possibly think of another draft variant where this would be applicable but I am willing to be proven wrong.

If its because I'm scum lets dance.

I guess I better get my dancing shoes on.

@Everyone voting for Spyrex

– I’d like to know how his mind-bogglingly strange logic regarding choosing Orange as a second color and it being meaningful (which appears to be from a misunderstanding of how roles would be distributed) is in any way a scum-tell.

Because, as I have said, SpyreX would know, based on past modding experience, that beyond a doubt at least one person would pick third party as an alignment choice, so therefore if he did pick Orange as a second choice he would never get it, so choosing Orange for his second choice is a wasted pick. If he wanted to be town he could have picked two town options. If he didn't want to be scum he increased his chances of getting a scum role by picking Orange as his second color because if he picked Green and didn't get it because a lot of people picked Green he would get defaulted to something else outside of his color selection.

Added on top of that his whole "I wanted to confirm if there was a SK or not" makes no sense and is a terribly justified (and invalid) reason under the guise of "trying to get information" for the town to operate. Once again, given his experience modding draft variant games he should know how getting his first choice would not give him any information about his selection below his first choice, regardless of if the role was guaranteed to be in the game or not.

Further I suggest from what I know about SSBF I would doubt taking the scum route would be his logical choice of action. Given how he felt about his SK role in Clash of Kings Mafia him throwing Orange as a color choice feels very unlikely.

Actually, when you said this it did jog my memory into thinking that SSBF was pretty vocal about hating SK roles and was ready to go for a sensfan lynch if SpyreX falls through; but I went and looked at his post game comments and he never actually said he hated SK roles or anything like that. He actually asked for improvement techniques for the future. I swear he alluded to hating independent roles somewhere but it wasn't in that thread, so I can believe he might not avoid being SKer.

Spyrex Agent Orange:

It's a bit peculiar that Spyrex picked Orange as his second but what scum motivation does it represent again?

Maybe he actually went Orange for his first pick and said it was his second because he knew anyone who picked Orange as their second pick wouldn't get it. Or, maybe he went scum and picked the two other alignments as his vocalized picks to further get people to think he was town. Regardless, he is hiding something and people that hide things are more likely scum more often than not.

I recognize SpyreX's line of thinking "'Don't want to be scum' 'SK could be fun' 'Town is fun' hence Town/SK with a side of knowing it exists if I don't get it". Just throwing that out there.

So maybe you can explain how someone picking Orange as their second pick would confirm if there was a SK or not if that person got their first pick? SpyreX doesn't seem to want to answer the question and since you recognize the line of thinking maybe you can help us out? (I see tans said almost the exact same thing verbatim a little later).

And why is this

scummy? PREVIEW EDIT: Yeah, what NPAU said. Nice jumping on the stupid bandwagon (and I mean no real disrespect, but that bandwagon is facepalm worthy).

So you don't think that with SpyreX's knowledge and experience with draft games and pick your alignment games he wouldn't know better?

2) I'd probably shoot xvart given a chance =P

This makes me sad.

[Jack]

Welp, assuming sens is telling the truth I don't even have to ask my question because this game obviously doesn't follow the same methodology that others of this variant would. Considering I'm not the only one who has ran

draft variants

here and I'm prettyyyyy sure that none of them would give out things if they weren't picked (like SK for example ohhh shiii) well then the like I said albeit small help in knowing orange isn't there isn't there at all.

What relevance does pyp have? Is that what you were referring to?

@Everyone voting for Spyrex – I’d like to know how his mind-bogglingly strange logic regarding choosing Orange as a second color and it being meaningful (which appears to be from a misunderstanding of how roles would be distributed) is in any way a scum-tell.

He picked scum colors and then had to lie about his colors, and didn't think it through in the way you would if you were actually picking.

Further I suggest from what I know about SSBF I would doubt taking the scum route would be his logical choice of action. Given how he felt about his SK role in Clash of Kings Mafia him throwing Orange as a color choice feels very unlikely.

This is interesting.

[Guderian]

There seems to be an easy smokescreen to hide behind in this game, and that is speculation about color. The colors people choose, the orders, whether you got them or not, whether to claim them or not etc. I have yet to read anything said by anyone that is really concrete on this issue, and by page 2/3 I think that should of been apparent to everyone else as well. This is bugging me that so deep into page 9/10 people are still filling half of their post with 'ideas' about what to do.

It seems to me to be an obvious thing to post about without ruffling any feathers.

@Vi - You don't like Andrius' #170, but what do you feel about the rest of his posts, the ones mostly revolving around rings and colors, like, do you feel that is scum motivated?

Can I get your own thoughts on this matter as well? Why did you feel the need to ask Vi?

I really don't like Starbuck's "at least I'm posting," comment, especially considering she was called out for fluff posting, and then she posted more fluff with that tidbit at the end.

Your posts with just statements and without backing up reasoning is starting to grate on me. Why do you keep popping out these oneliners, and what is it about starbuck's comment that you dislike and seems like fluff? And is doing such a thing anti-town, or just harmless posting?

tanstalas

[6] - Katsuki, SpyreX, Kublai Khan, Plum, Jack,

Kdub

Kdub

[5] - Vi, Fate, Andrius,

tanstalas

, xRECKONERx

I believe that it is incredibly likely one (or both) of these two is scum considering they both have switched onto eachother in self preservation mode. It seems to me that each has to a degree stopped worrying about other people and what they may be doing or acting scummish, and have instead gone porcupine.

That you would vote me for this ridiculous reason just looks like you are following the biggest wagon and had to throw on some excuse to justify it.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: tanstalas

Do you think his reason is ridiculous because he used it to vote you, because you think he didn't clarify, or was just made up? Also, 5 votes in a large (25+) doesn't seem to indicate = panic = jump on OTHER leading bandwagon.

If there is say a scum team of red and another of yellow with say 2 and 3 or 3 and 3 on each team then I see no reason why they wouldn't know of each other. They are the same mafia group, just split up because there are two 'scum' colors.

Do you honestly believe this, or are you just saying this? I think the mods have confirmed themselves that each color is 4 people. Does this make any sense at all when you think about it? For one, why would the mods unbalance the two scum teams and then let them know eachother, but then split them up... its just making my head hurt. Circular logic.

Would you mind giving me three bullet points (can be only a sentence) about why Kdub has done actions leading you to believe he is anti-town.

Kdub, the same. Or just links to posts that you consider influential for people to read regarding him.

Unvote

Vote: tans

----------------------------------------
I would like to kindly implore the people who seem to think posting in strange, exotic and sometimes juvenile ways to please stop. It was slightly funny, but not really. Thank You

[Guderian]

That's actually interesting information if true. It likely means that too many people requested scum.

Would you mind unpacking this sentence a little more, I'm curious to know where your line of thinking headed with this

[Plum]

@xvart -

Well, on the fly, this is what I thought: First I recognized the 'Would like to be Town/would see some fun in being SK as well'. Second, if the only pick for Orange out of everyone's two picks was someone's second choice that's almost certainly where it would go/what would happen. So if you don't get it as a second choice means someone chose it above you and presumably got it. Assuming Spy thought that SK would only be given to a request for Orange, that makes sense. Not that it's flawless logic given things like the fact that the plan seems to have been to give out Orange come hell or high water, but it's not without some degree of thought behind it.

So you don't think that with SpyreX's knowledge and experience with draft games and pick your alignment games he wouldn't know better?

If you can point out any scum motivation I'm all ears. I'm not saying it should be taken as a Towntell empirically (though I certainly don't find it scummifies SpyreX), but I fail to see any scum motivation here. Again.