Blackest Night Mafia (GAME OVER!)

[Kublai Khan]

@The Stove: You guys need to sign your posts as promised.

attn everyone
if any of you vote starbuck you will have my wrath upon you so quickly itll make your head spin

What is this I don't even

I said, and I'm pretty sure you quoted it, I went "I want to be town, but SK could be a hoot as a backup" thus.

Ok weird.. That statement still sounds completely fake the second time around.

I'm near-certain that SpyreX is scum. xvart has mind-nanja'd my reasons for thinking so.

Andrius was almost as low as SensFan, and the fact that Andrius' first color choices included an invalid color and had to resend them in made me wonder if maybe SSBF (who eventually turned into SensFan) actually would be "in before" Andrius. There was also the post by RC in the signup thread that Andrius was just going to get the 'leftovers' of what everyone else didn't get.

*checks*...

Well... he sent in one color. Yes, we said to send in two, but I guess he thought it would be funny to only send in the same one over and over.

So basically, we decided we'd just give him the leftovers of what everyone else got, so that more people would actually get what they wanted.

Huh.. Story check out. Nevermind then. Carry on.

UNVOTE: tanstalas
VOTE: SpyreX

dramonic needs to contribute more

so on that note imma let him get on the computer now and say some stuff

whoo irl prods ftw

Wait, two players are sharing a computer IRL for this game? There really should be a site-wide rule against that. *makes mental note for later MD topic*

@Andrius (234): Yeah, "KK" is fine.

@Starbuck: You are trying way too hard to be neutral. That is a scummy style of play.

FOS: Starbuck

[Jack]

@xvart -

Well, on the fly, this is what I thought: First I recognized the 'Would like to be Town/would see some fun in being SK as well'. Second, if the only pick for Orange out of everyone's two picks was someone's second choice that's almost certainly where it would go/what would happen. So if you don't get it as a second choice means someone chose it above you and presumably got it. Assuming Spy thought that SK would only be given to a request for Orange, that makes sense. Not that it's flawless logic given things like the fact that the plan seems to have been to give out Orange come hell or high water, but it's not without some degree of thought behind it.

So you don't think that with SpyreX's knowledge and experience with draft games and pick your alignment games he wouldn't know better?

If you can point out any scum motivation I'm all ears. I'm not saying it should be taken as a Towntell empirically (though I certainly don't find it scummifies SpyreX), but I fail to see any scum motivation here. Again.

This is craziness. The choices are RANKED. If you put SK in the second slot the ONLY way you will get it is if NO ONE picks it. I even said, when I picked it first, "I hope I'm one of the dozen players who put it first who gets it". It's extremely obvious that at least one person will have put it in first place.

SCUM ******** MOTIVATION SRCOUADELDOEDUSA.PKDJ DK NONSENSE

It's a scum MISTAKE. Scum has no motivation to make mistakes obv, but that's a ridiculous defense.

[xRECKONERx]

so just so its clear

id gladly hammer any wagon
except for tans because im not rlly seeing the case on him



kublai khan
first off just trust me on starbuck im like one of the only people that can read her and her read here is town
same goes for dramonic
just trust me on their reads

second off dramonic just flew in to visit me for two weeks so hes having to use my computer to post since his laptop wont work with my wireless so stop getting your panties in a bunch

[Katsuki]

weewoo if you say so reck

unvote vote kdub

i still think tans is scum though all his talk of all scum knowing who each other are is ridic considering he has played in large multiscum games before ala supersmash bro mafia
he would know that the scum group does not consist of 8 but rather 4 and 4

[Katsuki]

and all tans has done thus far is post giant walls of fluff with his pretend vi ness though i see what he is doing dere

[Kublai Khan]

@xvart -

Well, on the fly, this is what I thought: First I recognized the 'Would like to be Town/would see some fun in being SK as well'. Second, if the only pick for Orange out of everyone's two picks was someone's second choice that's almost certainly where it would go/what would happen. So if you don't get it as a second choice means someone chose it above you and presumably got it. Assuming Spy thought that SK would only be given to a request for Orange, that makes sense. Not that it's flawless logic given things like the fact that the plan seems to have been to give out Orange come hell or high water, but it's not without some degree of thought behind it.

Sorry to jump in on a comment aimed at xvart, but...

Are you thinking that colors got handed out on a first come, first serve basis? (i.e. Player 1 got their first choice, Player 2 got their first choice (unless both Players 1 & 2 picked orange))?

So you don't think that with SpyreX's knowledge and experience with draft games and pick your alignment games he wouldn't know better?

If you can point out any scum motivation I'm all ears. I'm not saying it should be taken as a Towntell empirically (though I certainly don't find it scummifies SpyreX), but I fail to see any scum motivation here. Again.

I think it's more of a slip than a tell.

[Kublai Khan]

kublai khan
first off just trust me on starbuck im like one of the only people that can read her and her read here is town
same goes for dramonic
just trust me on their reads

That's the problem. I don't trust you. At all.

(How did you get past the no-VI rule again?)

second off dramonic just flew in to visit me for two weeks so hes having to use my computer to post since his laptop wont work with my wireless so stop getting your panties in a bunch

Oh right. I remember the GD thread now. Nevermind then.

[Vi]

That's actually interesting information if true. It likely means that too many people requested scum.

Would you mind unpacking this sentence a little more, I'm curious to know where your line of thinking headed with this

The scum in this game WANT to be scum. Implicitly, that means that the scum are going to be playing very well in this game. If they have daytalk, Town could be in for a world of pain. More relevantly, it means that people who are acknowledged to prefer being scum rightfully

should

be top suspects because it's more likely that they chose to be scum and got it. (I should probably start re-evaluating my reads right now - The Stove, MoI, KK, Plum?, RC, etc.)

Other setup-relevant stuff while we're here - Lynches have to be on probscum. Passively wagoning someone who may not be scum will drive the Town body count higher, especially given 3+ kills/Night following up on it. (Hi xRx) As for scum, whoever has the most people on their team alive wins, and not attempting to crosskill is basically playing the odds that none of their own will be killed that Night.

Not liking a wagon because someone you don't like is on it isn't a good excuse in this game. Work together to lynch scum, then lynch them. Easy to do.

I have no idea what I was doing with this post.

---

Re: SpyreX part 15.5

It comes down to which version of events you believe. There's his own story, of course. There's potential for an ulterior motive in throwing away his second choice, namely that he REALLY wanted whatever color he chose. While I distinctly remember dark

red

being his color I think SpyreX prefers to be Town. And of course if you believe that the Orange claim was a lie and a slip, then of course he's scum because slipping and lying.

As mentioned before, I'm willing to side with SpyreX right now. If I'm wrong, he's readable so etc.

[xRECKONERx]

personally im of the belief that we shouldnt necessarily be worrying about orange for the time being but thats just me

[Katsuki]

personally im of the belief that we shouldnt necessarily be worrying about orange for the time being but thats just me

this

only scum would be sk hunting
which reminds me
tans was doing this too in the beginning when spyspy mentioned picking orange

[xRECKONERx]

hmmmmmmmmmmm

[xRECKONERx]

Hello to all the people I know, and the people I don't.

Unlike Vi, I will answer AGM's questions:

Why did you see the need to comment on this? Do you think not answering the questions is indicative of anything? Did you notice Alamaster didn't even answer his own questions?

That's actually interesting information if true. It likely means that too many people requested scum.

Would you mind unpacking this sentence a little more, I'm curious to know where your line of thinking headed with this

fluff questioning attempting to appear town

fos guderian

fate and katsuki we could totes vote for him too
and dramonic brought up a good point about nopointinactingup

look lets just all three be unofficial masons and vote together mk
dramonic can join in too since hes the one who pointed out npiau

[xRECKONERx]

town players include
me
katsuki
fate
dramonic
starbuck
andrius
maybe the stove i havent decided yet

scummy players include
guderian
sensfan
kdub

people who need to post more include
jack
dekes
stephoscope

everyone else can just consider yourselves neutral or null for the time being mk

[xRECKONERx]

i reaaaaaaally wanna think kublai khan is town but his posts wont let me

[xRECKONERx]

Good day.
I'd shoot myself in the head if I'm a N0 Vig. But it's a shame that I'm not ( or am I? )
The Ultimatium game looks a bit like Prisoner's Dilemma. I would take 50-50, which is the minimum bid that ensures I get free money at all. Same goes with the large number.

seriously
the comment about shooting himself in the head just does not sit well with me at all
second half of the post is just irrelevant fluff
what the hell does prisoners dilemma have to do with the current situation
once again this is scum creating fluff to appear protown

If SensFan hadn't said anything and PikachuGM hadn't asked irrelevant questions I would have voted nopointinetc. for claiming anti-Town colors in signups. (44)

SHUSH!! That was a secret ..

@NoPoint

– Why only answer a portion of AGM’s questions?

Hi! Cuz I like following trends.

Vi vs Pikachu:

I don't like AGM's questions real much but I see no real scum-hunting reason to make a fuss over it either. Both Vi and AGM is probably town.

Spyrex Agent Orange:

It's a bit peculiar that Spyrex picked Orange as his second but what scum motivation does it represent again?

Senfan bitching:

Buddy up to Magna time!

Vote:Senfan

first point
why dont you like agms questions
what do you mean you see no real scumhunting reason to make a fuss over it
what makes vi and agm likely to be town based on their exchange

second point
this literally adds nothing to the conversation

third point
did you really just lay down a vote with the sole intent of buddying
wifom wifom wifom wifom wifom

unvote vote nopointinactingup

kdub can wait till tomorrow
everyone choo choo chooooooo

[tanstalas]

Do you honestly believe this, or are you just saying this?

I think the mods have confirmed themselves that each color is 4 people.

Does this make any sense at all when you think about it? For one, why would the mods unbalance the two scum teams and then let them know eachother, but then split them up... its just making my head hurt. Circular logic.

*sigh* like I said a few times before I was hypothesizing about what the setup could be like.

• 1)I do think that 9 scum in a 25 man game seems a little too much
  2)I could see there being only 5-6 scum roles
  3)I could see them being on a single "team" - a 5 player scumteam or even 6 in a 25 man game doesn't seem to be that much of a stretch
  4)In regards to the point above think if there was only 5 or 6 scum, they would most likely all know each other/be on the same team in a single scum team game
  5)Since this game has 2 "scum colors" the 5 or 6 scum were split up to fill both teams.
  6)I have explained the above point before that is why I am getting frustrated that Kdub is still running in circles about it

Regarding the above bolded - can you point me to where the mods said each team has 4 people in it?

Would you mind giving me three bullet points (can be only a sentence) about why Kdub has done actions leading you to believe he is anti-town.

• 1)His knowledge that the scum teams cannot communicate between each other - slip? I don't know, that's how it read to me
  2)He basically said in his first post regarding me that he didn't find me scummy, the only thing he found
  strange
  was that I thought that
  maybe
  the two scum groups could communicate
  3)His vote on me seems scummy. His whole case on me rests on something that he didn't even find scummy, rather he found it "strange"
  4)The fact that I have explained my thinking on the scum team communicating many times and yet he keeps going back to it. Really, his last post where he quoted the "special rules" and said Try again Tans read scummy. In the preceding post I even said "They are the same mafia group, just split up because there are two 'scum' colors." I do not know if he is skimming, if I am not explaining myself properly or he doesn't want to admit that what I said even makes any sense because then his whole case on me is out the window
  5)Vi's points he brought up

This is craziness. The choices are RANKED. If you put SK in the second slot the ONLY way you will get it is if NO ONE picks it. I even said, when I picked it first, "I hope I'm one of the dozen players who put it first who gets it". It's extremely obvious that at least one person will have put it in first place.

I hope I don't come off as even more crazy, but I did a lot of thinking about how roles were going to be handed out. I gave you guys one of my theories, another one of my theories is that each choice WAS ranked but not how you are thinking. Basically another way I thought the roles might be handed out is based on a point system.

Say everyone has 3 "points" to spend - it comes down to whatever you rank your first choice as is 2 points and whatever you rank your second choice in as 1 point. So if you picked Orange as your second choice for example it would give you 1 point in the draw. Say for simplicity sakes that 10 other people picked Orange as their first choice and 4 other people picked orange as their second choice.

So basically there are 25 points in the draw, you picked it as your second choice so you have 1 out of the possible 25 or a 4% chance at getting orange, even though you only picked it second you have a chance to get it.

he would know that the scum group does not consist of 8 but rather 4 and 4

I never said the scum group would consist of 8, in fact I said if there are 8 scum members then I couldn't see any way that they would know who each other were/communicate with each other. See below:

Granted if it is two 4 man scumteams I can't see them knowing each other, as 8 people would decimate the voting and be pretty lopsided.

[xRECKONERx]

hey tans
whatcha think about nopointinactingup

[AlmasterGM]

Alright Vi I'll demonstrate the purpose of the questions and then we're DONE with this, k?

1) Has lots of interesting uses. It can catch scum. In Comedy of Whims (a UPick), a player said he received his first choice. His wiki page then revealed that he really wanted to be SK really bad because he had some new hawt SK strategy he wanted to try. He flipped SK. Granted, it's less relevant here because that game was a TRUE UPick, but it's still valuable. It can also provide "interesting information," as you called it, such as the fact that more people wanted to be scum than town (a la SensFan's comment).

2) If a player picks a target and say he's a "VI" or something, it's useful to know he had a pre-existing vendetta against that player should a wagon form down the roead. If a player chooses a target but gives little/no justification, then it shows they are willing to take risks by shooting into the dark. If they choose no target, it shows they are not a risk-taker. Knowing whether a player is a gambler is relevant in lots of ways, the most obvious being when looking at whether they are prone to bussing or not. (note, question 4/5 augments the results from this question).

3) This question analyes how far a player is willing to go to win and how used to lying they are. Generally, people with stronger conciousnesses are worse liars.

4/5) This question analyzes two things. First, once again, it analyzes risk-taking. But why ask a question with the same motivation twice? ...to determine whether a player conciouslly checks to see whether they are contradicting themselves. If someone will fire blindly into the dark on question two but will only split the money 50/50 here, it demonstrates they make decisions on an ad-hoc basis and don't have a consistent decision-making calculus. Given how frequently "contradicting" is used as a scumhunting tool, this is very useful information to have.

Obviously, none of these questions is going to produce a slam-dunk psychological profile. However, no "read" in mafia ever is. Every little bit of information pieces together to provide a larger, more useful picture. The questions could end up being useful. Worst case scenario, they aren't, and no tears were shed because they were only 5 of them and they didn't take that long to answer anyway.

Soo that's that.

-------------------------------

The only relevant question is the first one, and I get why AGar would want to check in first about whether or not we should answer it. I personally don't care.

I'm done reading, got a headache. I'll let AGar throw the vote down but I let him know my preferences lie in: Tanstalas / Starbuck / Katsuki / KDub / xRx / Sen

Pre-empt off the bat - If you use eachother as an excuse to lurk I will choke a bitch. Also, why are Starbuck and xReck scum? Rest of list is decent (ESP SENSFAN).

That doesn't make any sense. Picking orange 2nd is obviously just a throwaway choice. So did you lie about the color choice?

I agree with this, SpyreX should be on perma-radar. However, Vi also makes a good point later about scumteams being super strong, so I think SK-lynchage should be on the backburner.

@Sens vs MoI: Scummalicious =D
now which is scummier, the guy who goes ''woe is me, the mod hates me and is out to smite me because he's nothing better to do'', or the one going ''Since the person you are replacing is likely to be town, and you say he chose scum and say you are town, you must be scum!''...

Which is scummier, person one + no other content or person two + content?

If there is say a scum team of red and another of yellow with say 2 and 3 or 3 and 3 on each team then I see no reason why they wouldn't know of each other. They are the same mafia group, just split up because there are two 'scum' colors.

Do you honestly believe this, or are you just saying this? I think the mods have confirmed themselves that each color is 4 people. Does this make any sense at all when you think about it? For one, why would the mods unbalance the two scum teams and then let them know eachother, but then split them up... its just making my head hurt. Circular logic.

Would you mind giving me three bullet points (can be only a sentence) about why Kdub has done actions leading you to believe he is anti-town.

Kdub, the same. Or just links to posts that you consider influential for people to read regarding him.

Unvote
Vote: tans

This explanation is bad and looks like a cover to wagon hop. Please try again, preferrably using your own suggested "three bullet" method.

---

unvote vote nopointinactingup

This vote and the preceding case are excellent, I approve.

[tanstalas]

hey tans
whatcha think about nopointinactingup

The shooting himself in the head thing if he was a vig was probably a joke on himself which didn't go over. at all.

For the rest of your points:

first point
why dont you like agms questions
what do you mean you see no real scumhunting reason to make a fuss over it
what makes vi and agm likely to be town based on their exchange

second point
this literally adds nothing to the conversation

third point
did you really just lay down a vote with the sole intent of buddying
wifom wifom wifom wifom wifom

First point:
A few people didn't like AGM's questions and didn't answer them, and said they didn't like them, or gave no inclination either way - null tell
He doesn't see any reason to make a fuss out of it because he believes they are both town - See below
He needs to answer this question you posed to him to validate his point above

Second point:
I don't like this question as it was already poised by Magna on the previous page (#149). Looks to be parroting to me. I also wonder why he said he found it peculiar but didn't offer up any reasoning as to why he found it peculiar. If we ask him now he will probably just regurgitate what Xvart mentioned about Spyex's modding history and knowing that he would not get orange.

Third point:
I'm confused over what his real motivation was on the vote. Was it that he doesn't like Sensfan's bitching or to buddy up to Magna? Both reasons are lame to be certain. We were well past RVS at this point, I would like him to clarify why he actually put a vote on Sensfan, was it one of the above, or some other reason?

In conclusion, I think you should have put NPIAU on your "people who need to post more" list. I'm liking the kdub wagon more still, I am waiting to see him explain why AGM and Vi to him appeared to be a TvT exchange, as well as clarify the reasons he is voting Sensfan.

[Jack]

I didn't really read tantslas last post but I can buy that he just invents wacky theories and believes them.

unvote, vote:SpyreX

Don't see this as SK hunting, far from it. SK doesn't need to lie about colors.

Does anyone have more on the SSBF supposedly hating scum/sk meta?

[The Stove]

I was under the impression you guys would be signing your posts or something so they seem less schizophrenic.

I thought it was rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreally obvious who was posting given content (you guys

are

actually reading this amirite?) but sure we can go that route.

I'm not sure what Andrius is going on about. (Shouldn't the Baker and the Stove work together lulz?)

Pre-empt off the bat - If you use eachother as an excuse to lurk I will choke a bitch.

Bitches are people too.

Also PZ doesn't lurk sooo

Also, why are Starbuck and xReck scum? Rest of list is decent (ESP SENSFAN).

From my notes in the QT:

8. Starbuck - Posting is 100% flavor so far.
20. xRECKONERx - Reads make no sense (tansalas, Starbuck). Playing a lot like scum in that one other game.

Dunno where AGar went.

VOTE: KDub


-PZ

[dramonic]

@AGM: Sens may be playing whiny, but MoI is specifically making zero sense with his reason to vote.

[Toogeloo]

Ahoy, everyone.

->

rereading...

Would imply that you read once already, yet this is your first (and only post of the game). It's been a good while, so, thoughts?

[xvart]

What relevance does pyp have? Is that what you were referring to?

The relevance that I see is that in PYP you confirm someone else has picked a role above you if you don't get the role, but not the other way around. Another strike against the confirm Orange below him.

@xvart -

Well, on the fly, this is what I thought: First I recognized the 'Would like to be Town/would see some fun in being SK as well'. Second, if the only pick for Orange out of everyone's two picks was someone's second choice that's almost certainly where it would go/what would happen. So if you don't get it as a second choice means someone chose it above you and presumably got it. Assuming Spy thought that SK would only be given to a request for Orange, that makes sense. Not that it's flawless logic given things like the fact that the plan seems to have been to give out Orange come hell or high water, but it's not without some degree of thought behind it.

If he was really thinking "woohoo SK might be fun" he would have picked Orange first and town second since the likelihood of many people picking Orange (x) and him getting it out of that pool is 1/x, and then he would be defaulted to his "preferred alignment" as his second choice. And again, with his knowledge of player preference of picking third party (7/24 in Pledge of Allegiance) he would know that it was unlikely to get it as his first pick, so woohoo giggles if he did.

If you can point out any scum motivation I'm all ears. I'm not saying it should be taken as a Towntell empirically (though I certainly don't find it scummifies SpyreX), but I fail to see any scum motivation here. Again.

I already did, in the same post you quoted:

Spyrex Agent Orange:

It's a bit peculiar that Spyrex picked Orange as his second but what scum motivation does it represent again?

Maybe he actually went Orange for his first pick and said it was his second because he knew anyone who picked Orange as their second pick wouldn't get it. Or, maybe he went scum and picked the two other alignments as his vocalized picks to further get people to think he was town. Regardless, he is hiding something and people that hide things are more likely scum more often than not.

Whether he is serial killer or scum is of no consequences to me right now. I hope he is on one of the scum teams because it will give us some pretty good leads for tomorrow with some of the resistance that has been shown to his wagon.

It comes down to which version of events you believe. There's his own story, of course. There's potential for an ulterior motive in throwing away his second choice, namely that he REALLY wanted whatever color he chose.

But he didn't say this, did he? He didn't say anything even remotely resembling this. And what town purpose would there be to lie about some ulterior motive of this nature? What town motivation is there to hide any ulterior motive?

Further evidence of why you should be voting SpyreX since, as you said, if he lied and slipped then he is scum, and I don't see hiding a ulterior motive as being a townie motivation and therefore a lie.

personally im of the belief that we shouldnt necessarily be worrying about orange for the time being but thats just me

It is just as likely he is scum that requested scum but said his preferences were the two other options so it looked like he did not want to be scum and that he wasn't Orange because he picked it second.

[xRECKONERx]

hey tans
whatcha think about nopointinactingup

The shooting himself in the head thing if he was a vig was probably a joke on himself which didn't go over. at all.

For the rest of your points:

first point
why dont you like agms questions
what do you mean you see no real scumhunting reason to make a fuss over it
what makes vi and agm likely to be town based on their exchange

second point
this literally adds nothing to the conversation

third point
did you really just lay down a vote with the sole intent of buddying
wifom wifom wifom wifom wifom

First point:
A few people didn't like AGM's questions and didn't answer them, and said they didn't like them, or gave no inclination either way - null tell
He doesn't see any reason to make a fuss out of it because he believes they are both town - See below
He needs to answer this question you posed to him to validate his point above

Second point:
I don't like this question as it was already poised by Magna on the previous page (#149). Looks to be parroting to me. I also wonder why he said he found it peculiar but didn't offer up any reasoning as to why he found it peculiar. If we ask him now he will probably just regurgitate what Xvart mentioned about Spyex's modding history and knowing that he would not get orange.

Third point:
I'm confused over what his real motivation was on the vote. Was it that he doesn't like Sensfan's bitching or to buddy up to Magna? Both reasons are lame to be certain. We were well past RVS at this point, I would like him to clarify why he actually put a vote on Sensfan, was it one of the above, or some other reason?

In conclusion, I think you should have put NPIAU on your "people who need to post more" list. I'm liking the kdub wagon more still, I am waiting to see him explain why AGM and Vi to him appeared to be a TvT exchange, as well as clarify the reasons he is voting Sensfan.

tans stop defending scum you silly wittle townie

@AGM: Sens may be playing whiny, but MoI is specifically making zero sense with his reason to vote.

note to self
if sens flips scum dram is his buddy