Consulmaker II: the Pyrrhic War - Game over.

[The Fonz]

Right, but you could have done that without making reference to ongoings, and meta comments which were imo misleading... I just feel like Kat is town, etc.

[Parama]

No, it's me noticing that OH WAIT 2 SCUM ARE DEAD HURRR.

Seems pretty convenient that you noticed that right after I started questioning you, but whatever.

'tis because I noticed after you asked.

[ribwich]

Sens, why did you want somebody to claim the dramonic kill?

Of course dramonic wouldn't have been worried about his execution of reckoner, his fellow scum, being vetoed. I'm sure they both wished someone would, and had it been me, I would've executed reckoner first precisely so someone would veto it and execute someone else instead. I don't think the bus was entirely deliberate, and they hoped that their fight would look so silly that someone would veto it, like Nathanael had vetoed Chesskid's execution.

What I meant with interpretations, we have two: one says that dramonic would not have bussed Jack simultaneously with reckoner, and another that says he had no choice, and Jack could be scum anyway. I can't tell whether Jack is scum based solely on this, though I would be surprised indeed if the scum had planned to bus two of their number right at the start.

Ah, I think I see where this misunderstanding is coming from now. I'm not saying dram was afraid of a reck execution being vetoed because it would hurt their scumteam. Obviously the best case scenario for scum is to be able to bus your scumbuddy and have them not die as a result of it. What I mean is, if dram had put in an execution on reck, and it got vetoed without us seeing that reck actually was scum, how was dram going to look? He was presented with one of the easiest lynch choices you can get, and he would be ignoring it to continue his bus. The entire reason why I picked dram as a consul was to see if he would choose reck over Jack, and I think he knew that.

'tis because I noticed after you asked.

Care to respond to the rest of that post you were quoting?

[Parama]

Not really.

[SensFan]

Sens, why did you want somebody to claim the dramonic kill?

In case we later find out it was an SK or second scumteam.

[ribwich]

Not really.

Noted, scum.

In case we later find out it was an SK or second scumteam.

Were you expecting it to actually work? I see a move like that as being much more likely to out a vigilante than it would to get an SK or non-pyrrhic scum to fakeclaim.

Sorry if you already answered this before, but I don't remember me or anyone else ever asking you this. If that plan you had thought of for day 1 had worked, who were you planning on executing?

[SensFan]

If a Vig wants to claim, then I'm fine with that; at this point I don't think having a Vig out in the open is a huge detriment.

Kat, without a doubt.

[Feysal]

What I mean is, if dram had put in an execution on reck, and it got vetoed without us seeing that reck actually was scum, how was dram going to look? He was presented with one of the easiest lynch choices you can get, and he would be ignoring it to continue his bus. The entire reason why I picked dram as a consul was to see if he would choose reck over Jack, and I think he knew that.

Obviously it would've looked like dramonic was tunneling, and given how much flak you got for vetoing Jack, it probably would've made him look suspicious. However, it may have been beneficial in the long run. It is likely that either dramonic or reckoner would've been executed eventually, and the survivor would've gained the reward for the bus then. As a bonus, if the one executed was reckoner, whoever had vetoed his execution would look suspect because of it. Doing this would be risky of course, more so than what dramonic did, but I may have done it in his position anyway.

What this whole thing started from was my response to Scotmany in #1014. What I meant there was that dramonic could not really have been afraid of his execution of reckoner being vetoed, like Scotmany suggested. In retrospect, it should be clear that dramonic saying so was an excuse because he did not want to bus reckoner yet. It still tells me little about Jack, since dramonic may have well decided that Jack was a lost cause, if they were scum together.

Having thought it over, I don't see why Jack could not be scum with dramonic and reckoner. Whether he is and they gave up on him, or he is not, the fact that dramonic had no hesitation executing him is a null tell. There was that odd episode with reckoner suddenly believing Jack and ribwich were both town, and changing his mind just as suddenly, and I can't say why reckoner would do this, though the scum may have been simply late with their planning since they did not expect to get a consul position. The way dramonic made an excuse not to execute reckoner says to me that it was not a planned bus, and ribwich vetoing Jack's execution really screwed their plan. And if it was not a planned bus, then the fight between dramonic and reckoner was meant as distancing, but they overdid it and it blew in their faces. I've said before that it was odd how dramonic and reckoner were setting up to bus each other, and I would not do this if one of my teammates was about to be exposed. I've changed my mind, I don't think they were preparing to bus at all, it was simply distancing gone too far.

For Jack's part, while I have no experience with him, there are some odd things I noticed in his ISO. Like when he proposed reckoner as the deadlock lynch on the first day, out of the blue. And of course, he kept up his Consulmaker claim longer than I'm comfortable with.

[SpyreX]

Alright, different approach:

Sens, Fonz, Feysal, Poro:

Who should I kill? Magna, Jack, WILD THIRD OPTION?

[SensFan]

WILD THIRD OPTION:
Jack, about a day and a half ago.

[SpyreX]

I was waiting for the damn consuls to be chosen.

Although, its for the best because MY snap response would have been Maugnaererweare or whatever (its not Magna but it is in my brain so)

[Nathanael]

SpyreX.

kill one of: {SensFan, porochaz} or {Lowell, Parama}, although I would prefer one in the first group.
if not, as soon as you are not consul, I'd like a good explanation why you don't think SensFan/porochaz are scum.

[The Fonz]

Spyre: are you seriously acting like it is in the slightest bit unclear who I think should be killed today?

[SpyreX]

No I'm not 'acting' I'm all but POSITIVE I know what you're all going to say.

I just want it said again.

And things like Nat's come out from it as well so that's nice.

[The Fonz]

I want you to execute Jack. I also want you to do it straight away, so that we don't waste another day talking about Jack and then see it vetoed and find ourselves scrambling to find another lynch acceptable to everyone with veto power with deadline pressing. If Primate or Ribwich feels strongly enough that Jack is town that they're willing to veto it, then doing so quickly frees us up to discuss other options.

On that note, where IS Primate?

@Lowell: If you want Jack dead, why did you vote for ribwich as tribune, given that his major accomplishment so far has been vetoing Jack?

[SpyreX]

Have the consuls been chosen?

I've waited this long, I can wait a teeny bit more.

[Jack]

@Lowell: If you want Jack dead, why did you vote for ribwich as tribune, given that his major accomplishment so far has been vetoing Jack?

Just ditch the execute jack stuff and and get behind a lowell lynch. Part of your accusation was that I haven't been catching scum, but we have xreck and lowell.

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2597554

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2656190

[Flameaxe]

Your Tribunes are ribwich and The Fonz.

Consuls may now execute.

This was a few pages ago, by the way...

[SpyreX]

Sorry, totally missed it:

Execute: Jack

[The Fonz]

Waive my right to veto the above.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Barring vetoes, Jack will be executed Thursday 19:58 GMT.

[The Fonz]

LOL at Jack trying to make out that the Rexecution had ANYTHING to do with him.

[ribwich]

I waive my right to veto.

[Primate]

I was in the middle of deciding what to do with all of the players, this obviously pushes jack up the list and I'll do him now.

[Feysal]

After my last post, it should be clear where I stand regarding Jack. I have no more strong feelings that he could not be scum with dramonic and reckoner. He lied, he kept up his lie too long, he needs to go. And he needs to go sooner rather than later, so might as well be today. Once Primate waives his veto the day will end, so once more, for old times' sake...

CETERUM CENSEO JACKUM ESSE CAEDANDUM!

(I promise this was the last time.)

I started looking into my other suspects too, and picked SensFan first. I disagree strongly on some of his ideas on how to play, so I went looking for past games of his to find evidence of him having controversial beliefs before. I found three completed mini theme games he played town in, start to finish, none recent: 862, 878 and 978. I did find something, like when he said here that he did not think withholding reasoning was scummy. That was the part I disagreed with most, so after finding this post from over a year ago I can't really call him scummy because of it.

But there is more to why SensFan is scummy, and after reading his posts in ISO in these games, and skimming some of them in context, he does look considerably different here. I feel that in all three games he interacted more with other players, asking questions, commenting, pressuring those he considered scummy. Today I've seen him pretty much tunnel on Jack and Nathanael, and mostly ignore the other players. To continue what I wrote in #562, does anyone remember when SensFan said he wanted us to pseudovote like they counted? We had pseudovotes on day one, SensFan ignored them, and there has been no talk of pseudovotes since, not from him or anyone else. I think pseudovotes would actually be a good idea to start using again, they would make it easier to see where people stand, and they would be something solid to discuss and comment on.