Newbie 1046: Game Over

[GLaDOS]

Day One Vote Count #2

2 Deer (WhenInRome, AwesomePoe)
1 chkflip (Deer)
1 Ghostlin (nikitakit)
1 Haylen (StefanB)
1 WhenInRome (Haylen)

With

9

alive it takes

5

to lynch. Deadline is January 27 at 7:30 PM CST.

Not Voting – 3 – chkflip, Ghostlin, hurristat

[StefanB]

Just a little question for our mod, or anything else CST is GMT +/- ?

[Ghostlin]

Stefan: I'm not the mod, but it be GMT-6 (I'm in MTN so I'm GMT-7)

[Haylen]

My own questions/comments:

5. Timezone: I live in GMT +1 (Europe), where do you live.
6. Okay Haylen is female (know that), our mod too. Please if you don't have that in at last your profile say it here.
7. What we have to be careful of in the rules. If we have no majority in the the deadline we will have a no lynch, something town in most cases doesn't want.
8. Okay, that's personal me. English isn't my first language, so mistakes and some interesting grammarconstructions are posible, sorry. If I am not understandeble, (should not happen often, at last not with English being the reason) I will try it again. It shouldn't be a problem, and we play mafia, so talking about something is normal.

Scummy reads at the moment not so much, but the game just started and normaly I need at last a little bit to start, also posted enough for today.

I live in GMT time at the moment, in a few months it should be moved to GMT+1. I'm from England, specifically Bournemouth and Southampton (I travel at the weekends and am exhausted after work which is why I'm V/la on Saturday and Sunday.)

The only time I advocate no lynching is during mylo in this game it will be when there is 4 players left (if we have lynched one scum) or when there are 6 players (if we haven't lynched any scum) left. Because if we mislynch, the mafia will kill and we will lose. I'm trying to tell you all everything before I die >.<

CST is apparently GMT-6

[WhenInRome]

GMT +5 (EST) is where I live,so 10-11 PM and on is rest time.

[Ghostlin]

My own questions/comments:

5. Timezone: I live in GMT +1 (Europe), where do you live.
6. Okay Haylen is female (know that), our mod too. Please if you don't have that in at last your profile say it here.
7. What we have to be careful of in the rules. If we have no majority in the the deadline we will have a no lynch, something town in most cases doesn't want.
8. Okay, that's personal me. English isn't my first language, so mistakes and some interesting grammarconstructions are posible, sorry. If I am not understandeble, (should not happen often, at last not with English being the reason) I will try it again. It shouldn't be a problem, and we play mafia, so talking about something is normal.

Scummy reads at the moment not so much, but the game just started and normaly I need at last a little bit to start, also posted enough for today.

I live in GMT time at the moment, in a few months it should be moved to GMT+1. I'm from England, specifically Bournemouth and Southampton (I travel at the weekends and am exhausted after work which is why I'm V/la on Saturday and Sunday.)

The only time I advocate no lynching is during mylo in this game it will be when there is 4 players left (if we have lynched one scum) or when there are 6 players (if we haven't lynched any scum) left. Because if we mislynch, the mafia will kill and we will lose. I'm trying to tell you all everything before I die >.<

CST is apparently GMT-6

The dying comment is curious, so I'll just ask this for my own purposes: Do you often

not

make it to endgame? I've heard trying to analyze scum kills can lead to dangerous amounts of WIFOM, but usually by the time endgame rolls around, if you're town, if you are at all useful or good at scumhunting, you often don't make it there, either through misdirection or nightkills.

Also, do you think this kind of causal inception is a good idea? (If you don't know what I mean by this, just ask, but I'm trying to avoid text walls, which I've been told is not good and something I tend to do.)

[Haylen]

More often than not, I do make it to endgame - sometimes because I'm scum, more recently because I've started replacing into games that are almost over. However, it is uncertain as to what is going to happen in a game thus we have to prepare for every circumstance. If the town loses because I'm dead and couldn't tell you something such as the whole mylo thing I was talking about then I will believe it's my fault we've lost.

Analysing scumkills does lead to massive amounts of WIFOM, it's not something that should be condoned. By that I mean thinking about who had motives to kill who and why the scum killed who they did because more often than not, you're going to be wrong and it just distracts from useful discussion.

[Haylen]

Stefan: How did you know I'm difficult to catch as scum?

Awesomepoe: Why did you place a vote on someone who already had one in the RVS?

Wheninrome: Do you believe Deer's motives for confirming last were scummy? \

Note:

If we have any town power roles, DO NOT out yourselves early and try not to get yourself lynched. -_-

[WhenInRome]

No I do not, he could have been busy and did not see the message. I feel we should get more info from him before we call it scummy. Also, about AwesomePoe, I don't think it makes a big difference if he votes Deer, there are two votes and it takes 5 to lynch, so Deer is in no danger. If he was at L-1, that would be different.

P.S. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe scum can't talk till night, which means his inactiveness is probably for personal reasons.

[Haylen]

Incorrect, it says in the mafia's role PM's in the mods post that scum are allowed to talk during confirmations aswell.

[Deer]

AwesomePoe, why did you feel the need to copy WhenInRome's reason for RVSing me?

WhenInRome, why are you defending AwesomePoe? Haylen just asked him a question.

[WhenInRome]

Deer, I'm not "defending" AwesomePoe, I'm simply pointing out the fact that having 2 votes will not hurt the town or you.

[Deer]

It seems like you're trying to shut down a perfectly fine line of questioning when you answer for him like that. That's all.

[WhenInRome]

I did not intend to stop him from answering, I just thought I'd put my 2 cents in. Sorry if I gave you the wrong idea.

[AwesomePoe]

In the RVS, the only motatvation for anyone one to vote is to drive the game forward. Its a reflection of the pre-game state of things. This state is unobserverable and yet it is the most important state of the game, because pre-game everyone was given their roles. RVS by itself is useless. The scum hunting after RVS is much more observerable. We can theorize the motivation of a player's post after attention has been drawn to them.

fluff -> RSV -> d1 scumhunt

@Haylen: I wanted to see how Deer would handle more attention on him early in the game. As of now fairly well. Being SE, he should have the mad tact to play off RVS pressure.

@WhenInRome: You should take caution defending people you do not know. I don't know your motives but buddying up to me looks more scummy on you then me.

@Deer: I voted for you because I felt like giving you a hard time, and you must have the mad tact to handle two votes on you. I don't want to start a wagon on people solely on RSV.

[Ghostlin]

In the RVS, the only motatvation for anyone one to vote is to drive the game forward. Its a reflection of the pre-game state of things. This state is unobserverable and yet it is the most important state of the game, because pre-game everyone was given their roles. RVS by itself is useless. The scum hunting after RVS is much more observerable. We can theorize the motivation of a player's post after attention has been drawn to them.

fluff -> RSV -> d1 scumhunt

@Haylen: I wanted to see how Deer would handle more attention on him early in the game. As of now fairly well. Being SE, he should have the mad tact to play off RVS pressure.

@WhenInRome: You should take caution defending people you do not know. I don't know your motives but buddying up to me looks more scummy on you then me.

@Deer: I voted for you because I felt like giving you a hard time, and you must have the mad tact to handle two votes on you. I don't want to start a wagon on people solely on RSV.

Interesting. Is it really pressure if you're just random voting him to see how he'll react to the faux wagon? Unless you buckle under pressure really easily, it's easy to maintain one's composure during RVS: the votes don't mean much. It's like the opening bet in poker; unless someone really does something odd like raises or bets low at this stage, it's really hard to tell what they've got in their hand.

Also, a quick tip I've learned in the four or so games I've played here: unless you're being asked directly what you think someone's motivations are, do not offer free information on their behalf. It makes you seem buddying, which makes you seem scummy. While you will make alliances with other players by necessity in order to achieve the lynch, everyone except two of us know that only one of us is innocent: ourselves. And the two of us who knows everyone's alignment wants the rest of us dead.

@Deer: you reacted poorly to the information provided by Poe, when it's really Haylen's job to press for an answer. Were you afraid of how we'd react to Poe defending you, or was there another reason?

[Deer]

Why is it Haylen's "job" to press for an answer? It was a line of questioning that I thought needed to be pursued, so I asked it.

Also, why would you say I reacted poorly? Do you think my reaction was scummy?

[StefanB]

Okay quite some action:

Haylen: Why do I think you will be more difficult to catch then a newbiescum (for example)? You are IC. Experienced players are normaly better than newbies. IC are because of the double role, a bit more difficult to read. Also your favorite role is SK, you have won more than one game as it. Whitch means you can stay under the radar (if it's to much of a stretch, then sorry). All this doesn't mean you are scum, I just keep an eye on you, even if I unvote now, because somethink came up, that I think is scummy.

The Deersituation: It was a nice to get some reaction from him, but: Being the last to confirm is no way near a scumtell, (don't know where I read it in the wiki) town does it often enough. Second point Deer is a replacement, he confirmed less than 24 hours after GLaDOS told us that he would replace. Just get your facts right.

Ghostlin: Causual Inception? Better to post a bit more than to be cryptic. What really bugs me is the Haylen's job think. It isn't only the job of the IC to scumhunt and 4 eyes see more than 2. So that was in my opinion just a way to say shut up, which is very scummy. I also don't like his we should keep informations to ourself. If someone atacks someone with thinks that are just plain wrong and it goes to long, as town you should stopp it, before it hurts town to much.

Vote Ghostlin

[StefanB]

And here is the link to the wikipage. Writer is a certain Mastin. http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... sane_Tells

[Ghostlin]

@Deer: Bluntly: Bussing is a concern any time someone reasks a question someone else asks. Reasking a question could close a line of inquiry for that player to continue to persue to form a possible later case: I slightly misposted there. It's not much that the onus is on Haylen to continue to post, it's just that it's much more effective if someone goes: "Hey, you didn't answer my question. Why?" rather than if another player goes: "You didn't answer Player X's question. Why?" The first adds pressure in ignoring that player. The second could possibly be considered the start of sheeping or bussing.

Plus, if she doesn't reask the question, it shuts off a line of inquiry on Haylen. As in: "Player X ignored this. Why didn't you call them out on it?" This lets Haylen off the hook if someone else reasks it, because she can just simply say, "Because Player Z already asked for me."

As for your reply; the line of answering wasn't so much scummy as on first read, it seemed defensive from this end of the computer screen. That's not a tell, necessarly, but someone being sensitive about their defenses could be an indication of scum. (I, as a player, expect everyone to defend themselves, but as town, you have a little less to fear of lynch before lylo and mylo than scum.)

Lastly, you don't know what's in my head it and opens up the question of why you're speaking for another player.

@Stefan: That's a curious thing to infer from one sentence. Just because I said it was one person job to reask the question and push for more clarification a question they asked for their own purposes is not the same thing at all as 'we shouldn't scum hunt.' In fact I list the reasons above for why the same person should do this (to prevent seeming like you're trying to bus, buddy up to the same person, to apply more pressure, to get asked why you didn't reask the question if you don't as a more subtle line of inquiry). That almost seems like a rather large distortion.

It'd be akin to me taking Deer's comment earlier (gonna use you as a guinea pig, Deer):

It seems like you're trying to shut down a perfectly fine line of questioning when you answer for him like that. That's all.

And then making the leap that Deer believes that Poe and WIR are scumbuddies. It's somewhat suspicious when someone answers for someone else, and seeming sort of buddy behavior, but it also could be nerves, or the innate attitude of someone being helpful. It also would infer you can summarize what Deer thinks innately. I don't acutally believe Deer believes Poe and WIR are a scumteam.

However, you in essence believe that since I said it's really Haylen's job to press for an answer for a question she asked (for the reasons I elaborated on) that I believe only the IC should be the one scumhunting.

In fact, why would you post this:

The Deersituation: It was a nice to get some reaction from him, but: Being the last to confirm is no way near a scumtell, (don't know where I read it in the wiki) town does it often enough. Second point Deer is a replacement, he confirmed less than 24 hours after GLaDOS told us that he would replace. Just get your facts right.

When WIR posted this much eariler:

No I do not, he could have been busy and did not see the message. I feel we should get more info from him before we call it scummy. Also, about AwesomePoe, I don't think it makes a big difference if he votes Deer, there are two votes and it takes 5 to lynch, so Deer is in no danger. If he was at L-1, that would be different.

It's not very likely that most of town believes Deer is scum on that. In fact the person who asked the question SAID they don't believe Deer is scum for being last to confirm. The defense is unnecessary and aggressive on Deer's behalf.

So, let me ask you this: why make a dead point to defend another player on something that no one necessarly believes? Why would you be concerned whether or not Deer could defend himself against that?

Also, how would you know exactly when Deer confirmed? The only one who would know this would be GLaDoS, who would of picked up our PMs.

I'll get to my Causal Inception comment in the next post.

[Ghostlin]

The causal inception comment comes from an idea in the movie Inception: In it, there's an exchange where one of the character uses the following correlary:

"If I tell you not to think about elephants, what do you think about?" "Elephants."

Haylen had posted the following eariler:

I'm trying to tell you all everything before I die >.<

This isn't as subtle as thinking about elephants when told not to, but it could implant the suggestion that Haylen will be leaving us soon. (Because she's town and the mafia will bump her off for being useful.) It could make an assumption that could color our play. It also could create a lot of false arguments through the game (what if she lives to endgame, etc?).

[StefanB]

First to get the more unimportant parts of the posting out of the way

Ghostlin wrote

So, let me ask you this: why make a dead point to defend another player on something that no one necessarly believes? Why would you be concerned whether or not Deer could defend himself against that?

Also, how would you know exactly when Deer confirmed? The only one who would know this would be GLaDoS, who would of picked up our PMs.

I don't know when Deer confirmed, I only know that it took him less then 24 hours because there are less than 24 hours between GLaDOS replacement post and the conforment post. So logic.

Perhaps I should have let this rest, but I saw it yesterday and though first lets see how Deer reacts, than post it. May also be a bad case of trying to brag. But it's a dead topic for me also, so you really want to discuss that point further?

Ghostlin again:

Bussing is a concern any time someone reasks a question someone else asks. Reasking a question could close a line of inquiry for that player to continue to persue to form a possible later case: I slightly misposted there. It's not much that the onus is on Haylen to continue to post, it's just that it's much more effective if someone goes: "Hey, you didn't answer my question. Why?" rather than if another player goes: "You didn't answer Player X's question. Why?" The first adds pressure in ignoring that player. The second could possibly be considered the start of sheeping or bussing.

Okay the point was in your answer to Deer, but it shows my problem that if have with your logic better than anything that you wrote that was directed by me. Okay it was Haylens question, but come on. Just a few points. He could be interesting in the answer also. Haylen is not very active in weekends, so we will have to wait for an answer. Sheeping is a very strong term for what happened. Start of bussing I can say much about. Just that is is very strange.

In the whole thing I don't care that is about Deer. For me it's more about logic and that what you wants hurts town imho. Waiting for Hayley 2 days (worst case) is not a good option. Also I belive more activity = good.

[StefanB]

Oh yes forgot the Haylinsituation. If we get in lylo than more than half the townies have died. We are seven, 3 would be alive in the first situation, 2 in the second lylo variant. So given the players all theoretical information now doesn't hurt. So it's in a sense just stating the obvios and always plan for the worst case senario.
The wording was strange right, Ghostlin. We shouldn't asume anyone to be mafia, just he or she is still alive, also right.

[Ghostlin]

First to get the more unimportant parts of the posting out of the way

Ghostlin wrote

So, let me ask you this: why make a dead point to defend another player on something that no one necessarly believes? Why would you be concerned whether or not Deer could defend himself against that?

Also, how would you know exactly when Deer confirmed? The only one who would know this would be GLaDoS, who would of picked up our PMs.

I don't know when Deer confirmed, I only know that it took him less then 24 hours because there are less than 24 hours between GLaDOS replacement post and the conforment post. So logic.

Perhaps I should have let this rest, but I saw it yesterday and though first lets see how Deer reacts, than post it.

May also be a bad case of trying to brag. But it's a dead topic for me also, so you really want to discuss that point further?

Ghostlin again:

Bussing is a concern any time someone reasks a question someone else asks. Reasking a question could close a line of inquiry for that player to continue to persue to form a possible later case: I slightly misposted there. It's not much that the onus is on Haylen to continue to post, it's just that it's much more effective if someone goes: "Hey, you didn't answer my question. Why?" rather than if another player goes: "You didn't answer Player X's question. Why?" The first adds pressure in ignoring that player. The second could possibly be considered the start of sheeping or bussing.

Okay the point was in your answer to Deer, but it shows my problem that if have with your logic better than anything that you wrote that was directed by me. Okay it was Haylens question, but come on. Just a few points. He could be interesting in the answer also. Haylen is not very active in weekends, so we will have to wait for an answer. Sheeping is a very strong term for what happened. Start of bussing I can say much about. Just that is is very strange.

In the whole thing I don't care that is about Deer. For me it's more about logic and that what you wants hurts town imho. Waiting for Hayley 2 days (worst case) is not a good option. Also I belive more activity = good.

1) First off, I don't quite understand what you're getting at; are you saying WIR or Deer are bragging, when you say the bold line above?

I can accept the logic at face value: I just continually question the need to have to defend that issue. Particularly, again, when the attacker didn't actually believe it himself after being questioned by Haylen. I seriously don't believe confirmation order is important, and I sorta went 'huh?' when I read the attack and wrote it off as RVS.

2) Sheeping is a me-too attitude that you can see in some games, usually accompanies a vote for a wagon. Bussing is jumping on a wagon for bad or no reason. Let me ask you this question: If someone repeatedly defends or asks someone's questions for them in a game where two people know each other are on a team when anyone else doesn't and want to cause the other players to lose, what

might

you think of that person?

People think alike, yes: but it's unlikely that I can't come up with a unique idea myself. A town that rehashes the same points over and over isn't an active town, it's a town parrot each other. My problem isn't talking. It's really not. Anyone who reads my short posts probably could say I talk just fine. It's just you get your own reasons for doing what you do and not follow anyone else's because if you follow the first suggestion in front of you or follow a player, even the IC, town may lose because if the IC's mafia, we'll lynch innocent townies. A lot of them. We need content, yes, but we need content uniquely created by the players.

I like the fact that you've formed an opinion enough to seriously vote someone at this stage; it certainly gets town talking. Now, how do you feel about WIR's answering the question for someone else taking in the same considerations on how you voted me?

In fact, you've been kinda quiet,

WIR

, so let me ask you this: after being in the game the short while we've been here, give me your opinion on someone and how they've been playing/posting. Be sure to highlight things you find town like or suspicious.

The entire town probably should do this eventually, but I'm targeting WIR because he seems to have quieted after Deer's last response to him.

Back to what I meant about Haylen: my biggest problem with the whole 'I better spit this out before I die' is the possibility of WIFOM if she doesn't die (I actually hate WIFOM a lot), the drawing attention to herself inadvertently for NK in a game full of newbies could possibly hurt town, and the simple fact if she's not scum and the IC, I'd rather NOT see her dead. This could also give off a town vibe where none exists: she posts she needs to get her stuff out before dying may be a useful thing for us to believe as a Mafia player. It's nothing to really go on, but something to keep in mind.

[Deer]

I see what you're saying, Ghostlin, but when I see a question that I think needs to be asked I'm going to ask it. I'm doing it for the good of the town.

WhenInRome is my best scumpick for now and I've never been a huge fan of RVS anyways.

unvote, vote: WhenInRome