Mini 1102 - Rivertown Mafia (Game Over!)

[Cyberbob]

This post of Cyberbob’s slipped under the radar but HELLO HYPOCRISY.

this would be true if I was posting like a retard (which I'm not)

[Cyberbob]

because olinea posts like a champion

lmao

[Furcolow]

cyberbob, care to actually scumhunt?

[ThAdmiral]

when i claimed miller i was being facetious honestly
it was more of an "i'll probably end up as the miller" as a townie
do townies ever know they're the miller?
news to me

Seriously?

[InflatablePie]

@Everyone that's called Olinea town: Why? He's like my most null-read, but he seems to be called town by most. I'd just like a few reasons why, and for anyone that thinks he's more scum than town to speak up as well.

He seems to produce decent content, and it's mostly a gut town read. None of his posts stand out to me at the moment that scream TOWNIE, but he gives off a townie vibe. However, the FoS above was due to his use of Information over Analysis - something I personally do a lot as scum. That "journal" of his didn't seem to offer original thought (admittedly I started skimming after a while); it was just a recap. Scum could write something like that up fairly easily in order to seem like they're contributing.

But I have no hard evidence, so I'm not gonna place a vote on him in the near future, barring him doing something terribly scummy. Just more of an IGMEOY-FoS.

---

Woohoo, another replacement for chamber. And I'm have a feeling we'll be getting a replacement for 3K soon. Why'd this game get stuck with all the apathetic/real-life busy players? =/

[Zdenek]

I'm going to try something new. +S means plus scum and +T means plus town. When I see something that I think I have to comment on, I'll comment on it.

Disclaimer: I am not going to necessarily say that the person with the most scum points is my greatest suspect. Each point may not be worth the same amount, and scum can do townie things and vice versa. Also, I'm bound to miss some things and that's just life. If you want me to comment on something ask and I probably will. I'm also aware that this has the potential to punish high posters. This is just a place to start.

I will sort of include Umbrage just to see if I agree with others reads of him, but if he writes any walls, I'm not going to read them.

Going through the game chronologically:

Ortiz +S
Umbrage +S
Ortiz +S
Umbrage +S
Ortiz +S
I don't like these self-votes, and I dislike Ortiz' more.
el simo +S
Olinea +T
Olinea +S
Ortiz +S
sorasgoof +S
ortiz +S
el simo +S
ortiz +S
CyberBob +T
ThAdmiral +S
Thirdkoopa +S
ortiz +S
olinea +S
ThAdmiral +S
el simo +S
chamber +T
chamber +T
el simo +T
ThAdmiral +S
There seems to be a connection between ortiz and el simo, but my gut tell me that at moat one of them is scum.
ThAdmiral +S
I like Furcolow's read of ThAdmiral, but I think his read of Umbrage is badly affected by confirmation bias.
sorasgoof +S

What is up with this game players go from attacking one another for RVS reasons, which is sort of scummy, to unvoting, which is also sort of scummy.

Thirdkoopa +S

I'm not a fan of CBs policy lynch or el simo's attack on him for it.

CyberBob +S
InflatabePie +T
Thirdkoopa +S
InflatablePie +T
I'd like to point out in case it is necessary to refer back to it later that IP just called Umbrage, Cyberbob, el simo and Furcolow all town.
sorasgoof +S
Thirdkoopa has no scum reads?
I agree with el simo that Tk's jump in activity after being pressured is a bit suspicious.
Thirdkoopa +S
ThAdmiral +S
As of ThAdmiral's 308, I'd be very happy with his lynch.
Ortiz +S
Ortiz makes a pretty reasonable case on Soras in 329, but votes CyberBob.
ThAdmiral +S
el simo +S
CyberBob +S
ThAdmiral +S
sorasgoof +T

Fugitive's case on Furcolow isn't any good.

Ortiz +S
Thirdkoopa +S

Sorasgoof's frustration and refusal to scum hunt is wearing thin.
Sorasgoof +S

InflatablePie +S

Considering how close the deadline is, I am ok with ortiz's vote. He may still be scum, but not for that.

Cyberbob +S

Sorasgoof has agreed to scum-hunt; Needless to say, I'm interested.

Olinea +T
Ortiz +S
Ortiz +S

Totals:
chamber +2T
CyberBob +1T +3S
el simo +1T +4S
Fugitive --------
Furcolow -------
InflatablePie +2T +1S
Olinea +2T +2S
Ortiz +11S
sorasgoof +1T +4S
ThAdmiral +7S
Thirdkoopa +5S

Chamber struck me as town, and this total confirms that read, so I would not be in favour of his lynch today.

I think CyberBob could be scum, but it is for his overall style rather than for any particular reason. Since he only posts when necessary it is hard for me to get a read of him. I don't like his attack on Furcolow, in particular his ISO21 seems to be an attempt at painting him as scummy for no good reason. I also don't like that he was trying to line up Ortiz as tomorrow's vote.

I don't have a great read on el simo at the moment, and I don't feel like putting in the effort to get one now. I think that he is clearly not a good lynch candidate for today.

I think Fugitive's early push for Furcolow's lynch is weak, similarly his return to Furcolow. I also think this business of him soft-claiming is a stupid waste of time. I am null on him.

I agree with Furc that ThAdmiral is scummy. Even though I do not agree with the statement, I like the sentiment of his statement that the real problem is that ortiz and el simo are likely town. I would not be in favour of his lynch today.

I also would not be in favour of an InflatablePie lynch today. I think him showing up in the game and voting Thirdkoopa is obvious scum hunting. I'm not fond of his pestering of ortiz to post.

Olinea strikes me as town, and I'm not going to support his lynch today.

I would be fine with an Ortiz lynch.

I am torn on sorasgoof, but I think his frustration is townie rather than scummy.

I would really love to lynch ThAdmiral.

I would be okay with lynching Thirdkoopa. I think he deserves the heat that he got, and I agree that he's only posting when he's under scrutiny, so I'm null leaning scum on him.

In hopes that I can get attention for my favourite lynch.

Vote: ThAdmiral

----------------------------------
Question to everyone to whom it applies: why do you think ThAdmiral is town?

[ortiz1193]

Fwiw, never take anything I say as anger. I'm not like everyone else in this game >_>. I'm pretty level-headed and speak in a passive voice. I don't get mad at this stuff. No need to sound angry (idk if you are, but this is the angriest you've sounded in this game).

Ok this settles it for me. I literally could not have played the game without being called scum for it. a) I don't post at all and get called scum for lurking b) I keep my vote on CB and get called scum for contributing to a no lynch going through by not switching to the person I said I would switch to had a high chance of being lynched c) I switch votes LIKE I SAID I WAS GOING TO and get called scum for switching or d) I don't post about why I wasn't going to get to stay on and defend myself and just make a post that says "unvote, vote soras" which would be 10x worse.

I also said I would do what was necessary to get a lynch through. It's called not being an idiot. TK and Soras both had a ton of connections and votes/unvotes on them. A lynch of either of them is better than no lynching on Day 1.

I can not defend myself from this. It seems so obviously clear to me and 2 of my 3 scumreads are voting me.

A) so post more B) this is just not true, you are not scummy for wanting to lynch someone else C) fuck have some sense ortiz, how can you say this when I haven't even replied to your defence of the accusations? Honestly, fucking hell. C is wrong because now that you've shown me how I was wrong I understand your view and realize it's NOT scummy, so next time before having a rant wait for a reply buddy. D) doesn't matter, point is you had LA and planning to vote who ever to get a lynch.

a) I've posted plenty imo. The point was that just posting wasn't an option because it led to the other letters.

b)

Notably oritz, who had no problem jumping off of the el simo wagon once it began to pick up steam, only to go onto the Umbrage wagon, and now sits comfortably on Cyberbob who probably won't be lynched. There's something fishy there.

It doesn't say it in black and white, but I feel like fishy implies suspicion. Plus I would honestly be suspicious of someone who posted that close to the deadline without voting someone who they had already called scum and let a no lynch go through. If we no lynched with the options we had it would've been terrible.



c) Seriously? That was like the 3rd time I've repeated the exact same thing... the "rant" was because I had already posted my reasoning and you had still made your post about it. This is honestly how it felt to me:

<paragraph> ...and THAT is why the balloon is, in fact, NOT blue.

<paragraph> ...oh and obviously the balloon is blue.

Idk if that's terrible or not, but it was just the frustration I felt. I didn't mean to rant/rage if that's how it came off.

d) I still stand by doing whatever to get a lynch through so I'm fine with that

The rest of us decided to compromise our target to get a lynch that we can all be happy with and were posting actively, you decided just to put your vote anywhere to make sure we lynch someone and then disappear for a while. You also tried to excuse your lack of input and limited activity during the few hours before our deadline because you had to eat and write an essay, setting you up to hop bandwagons willy nilly with out having to explain your actions at all because you have to get back to writing that essay and eating that food.

a while = two hours

setting me to hop wagons = setting me to up to help a lynch go through

without having to explain your actions =

If you were only going to be inactive for two hours why did you bother rush posting and voting in the first place, when you could have just come back and made a better post after you've ate and written your essay?

Yeah - this isn't necessarily a good thing. Like I said we were all compromising on our targets, you said make sure your vote is in the right place for a lynch - ie who ever is at majority at the time. <- scummy

I still wouldn't have had time to write a good post. It would be late and I wouldn't have time to do anything besides jump on the leading bandwagon for the same reason anyway.

I still say there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, what I did pretty much was compromising. I was just changing my vote to compromise with who everyone else decided. The two choices were TK and Soras who both have had a ton of connections/actions surrounding them. I was fine lynching either one of them to get the lynch through.

tl;dr

ortiz incorrectly predicts our response and has a rant about it

my b

----

@ortiz - sorry if you've done this and I missed it somehow, I haven't read that mini-wall on this page yet, but can I get a top 3 scum reads and just like a sentence or two each for why?

I briefly mentioned it.

CB
Soras
Pie

Reasons for the first two are the same as all game. Soras is quoted in my wall. CB has still contributed to nothing and been all around scummy. (Basically what I said earlier in a short sentence) And to explain Pie I think I need to make a wall. I feel like I've seen a ton of scummy things in his posts that I can't just list off the top of my head. Calling me out for lurking (and pushing it) was the most recent reason. I'll post the rest when I have time to go through his 74 (>_>) posts.

Also, I haven't really re-evaluated Soras in a while. A lot of people said he was town so I need to reread his play from the last few pages and see why everyone changed reads.
----

Z: It would probably be too difficult to ask for everything that you assigned those points for? I'm mainly interested in the 3 +S's right off the bat. They were all 3 before I self-voted apparently and I didn't even know I posted 3 times already at that point >_>.

[Zdenek]

Z: It would probably be too difficult to ask for everything that you assigned those points for? I'm mainly interested in the 3 +S's right off the bat. They were all 3 before I self-voted apparently and I didn't even know I posted 3 times already at that point >_>.

Your first post of the game didn't move the game forward; you just said that you didn't want to participate in RVS.

In your second post of the game you voted Umbrage for reasons that simply copied those of Chamber, and this is a little ironic considering your first post.

Then you self-voted, copying Umbrage, and I don't see any town motivation for that decision.

[Cyberbob]

I also don't like that he was trying to line up Ortiz as tomorrow's vote.

Are you happier now that I'm trying to line him up as today's? The only reason I wasn't doing so at the time was that there physically wasn't time to lynch anyone other than Thirdkoopa. The deadline extension changed that

[diddin]

Thirdkoopa has requested replacement. I'll give you guys another 3 days.

[InflatablePie]

@Zdenek: Like most of my townreads (although not all), it's mostly process of elimination. There's quite a few scummy people in this game; I could almost make a case on anyone. But ThAdmiral hasn't done anything outright scummy that I've seen, so he gets a townread.

Could you also sum up your case, because I really don't want to read through these large posts.

Thirdkoopa has requested replacement.

Shock and awe.

@oritz - 75 posts now.

[ThAdmiral]

@ zdanek: I'm not going to ask you to list every single point against me but can you elaborate on why you think I am scum a bit more? Especially the point about post 308.

[Fugitive]

also to clarify on whether or not i read, i read most of the thread, so you're wrong
also, why are you so willing to push me/ortiz? or are you going to iso him to deter the wagon on him?

The ISO, as I explained if you've been reading, was due to the fact that this is a person I didn't have a real solid read on (mostly due to the fact that I think he was slipping under the radar) and when the deadline was increased received 3 votes immediately. I think that's a good reason to read a player over.

What are your thoughts on me not voting ortiz, and forcing two competing wagons, which was then offset

This question confuses me kind of. I don't really have an opinion on you not voting ortiz, but the fact that you asked me about it makes me a little suspicious because it seems like you're trying really hard to point to the fact that you're not wagoning which seems like you're trying too hard.

-------

ortiz's ISO:

oritz is someone I've played with a lot now. I've been town with him. I've been scum with him. I've been on opposite alignments with him. I think I can read him very well. Pie is another one of those people I've played with a LOT and have had every combination of alignment with him (though our scum team failed >_> and his meta this game is nothing I've ever seen). oritz is not playing his scum meta. He's playing his town meta, in fact. Maybe I'm just off, but I think the fact that he's under so much suspicion actually points to a town oritz.

Note: I re-read this before I posted and this paragraph I make it look like I'm more qualified to read oritz than anyone else. I'm really not trying to come across this way, I'm just trying to demonstrate my knowledge of his meta.

The main tell I ALWAYS use for him is caution vs. recklessness. The feeling I'm getting from oritz is that he doesn't care that people find him suspicious when he posts, which is usually a town-tell. A very big town-tell, I might add. Everyone should read his SHM5 game in his completed games. It was his most recent game. He was scum. He was extremely cautious all game. Dodging around reasons. Fence sitting. Playing safe. Now go find a town game, something which he hasn't played recently actually. He scum hunts like a pro. He's out there kicking ass and taking names. That's closer to what he's doing this game from what I've seen. I don't usually agree with his scum-tells, actually, but I see him as legitimately trying.

That's where I become conflicted, becuase I've seen him up to this point as sitting under the radar. When I read his posts though, I get the impression that he's really out there, they're just not very frequent and he doesn't garner much attention. My read on him really depends on whether or not I think he's trying to dodge the spotlight on purpose. If I had to go one way right now, I'd say it's not on purpose. When called out for lurking/under the radar-ing, he posts. That speaks volumes for me. I think it would be scummier to be called out then be afraid to post right after for being called out.

Overall, I an NOT on board with an ortiz lynch. I have a town leaning read, plus I wasn't able to gain a single connection (besides the Pie/ortiz thing that was beaten to death and I think is too obvious to be a real connection) through the ISO. I don't think much information could be gained from his lynch

-------

@Z - mind if I call you that?

I have a town read on Admiral mostly for gut. Yeah, I know that's kind of lame, but his posting style is indicative of what I usually find to be town. Short, sweet, original ideas, kind of sarcastic but very set in his ways. Maybe I just haven't played mafia that much, but every time I see a scum flip it's usually a playstyle that's almost the exact opposite of that. I do wish he would elaborate a bit more, as I'm a fan of wordy posting (go figure) but that doesn't make him scum in my eyes.

------

Still exhausted but I forced myself to do this tonight when I got home because I'd been promising content for 2 days now, I think. If there's anything I missed addressed to me or any questions let me know and I'll try to get to it by the day after tomorrow.

[el simo]

c) Seriously? That was like the 3rd time I've repeated the exact same thing... the "rant" was because I had already posted my reasoning and you had still made your post about it.

Yes and thus I was wrong as I didn't notice.

It would be late and I wouldn't have time to do anything besides jump on the leading bandwagon for the same reason anyway.

I still say there's nothing wrong with that. In fact, what I did pretty much was compromising. I was just changing my vote to compromise with who everyone else decided. The two choices were TK and Soras who both have had a ton of connections/actions surrounding them. I was fine lynching either one of them to get the lynch through.

Jumping on the leading bandwagon isn't compromising it's opportunistic scum.

[Furcolow]

um, fugitive, excuse me but i prefer 2 competing wagons
sorry if you disagree

[Furcolow]

when i claimed miller i was being facetious honestly
it was more of an "i'll probably end up as the miller" as a townie
do townies ever know they're the miller?
news to me

Seriously?

100% honesty.

[Furcolow]

zdenek, why are you voting thadmiral when he has less S than ortiz on your list, with ortiz being a higher lynch candidate near deadline?
this makes it look like you are scum with ortiz

[el simo]

zdenek, why are you voting thadmiral when he has less S than ortiz on your list, with ortiz being a higher lynch candidate near deadline?
this makes it look like you are scum with ortiz

And by some margin too! I would like an answer to this question.

[Furcolow]

hell, even staying on my wagon would be more bandwagon
appears like there is no reason for what he's doing unless he genuinely feels the guy is scum, and if that was true he would be voting the guy with "+11S" right?
wtf does that mean anyways
i would like explanations for statements that you are reading as scum or town, not just throwing random math at me that makes no sense

[InflatablePie]

Jumping on the leading bandwagon isn't compromising it's opportunistic scum.

To be fair, it could be both. In the context of how he did it though, it does seem scummy.

Ehh, Fugi's kind of right, oritz did receive some quick votes once deadline got extended. I understand why (hell, I voted him as well) but it still seems odd looking back. I'm honestly unsure about how to feel, although Z's voting of Admiral over his higher scumread does seem off as well. If one flips scum, I'll be highly suspicious of the other (although less so if Z flips scum than if oritz flips scum).

I still say 3K's slot is a good lynch. Going with my gut from earlier, plus we save diddin the trouble of finding another replacement. (b' ')b

[Zdenek]

Are you happier now that I'm trying to line him

[Ortiz]

up as today's?

Italics are mine.

No, because I don't like the reason you are pushing his lynch. Townies often switch their votes near the deadline with little reason given to avoid a no lynch, so I don't think what he did was scummy.

zdenek, why are you voting thadmiral when he has less S than ortiz on your list, with ortiz being a higher lynch candidate near deadline?

I'm not going to vote someone based on the number of scummy things that they have done. This would unfairly punish frequent posters, and not all scummy posts are equal in terms of making me think someone is scum. We have a few days now, and I want to draw attention to ThAdmiral.

Elaboration on ThAdmiral

I strongly doubt the sincerity of his votes:
- It seemed pretty clear to me that el simo was going to take heat for his "random" vote, but ThAdmiral votes el simo using the ridiculous third on the wagon scum tell. This is playing it safe because it builds a backdoor right into the vote. This vote as a way for him to draw attention to el simo's "random vote" without having to push a case.
- Later he casts suspicion on Ortiz and Pie, and both cases are lame. He unvotes as soon as this is pointed out to him. Next he decides to vote Ortiz for being wishy-washy, which is another lame case. Ortiz points this out to him and he unvotes again.

This feels to me as though he doesn't really believe that the people he is building cases against are scum because he is happy to let them off once they explain themselves to him.

He mudslings:
- He accuses chamber of playing coy, which I think is mudslinging considering that it was completely unnecessary since chamber had already provided reasons for his vote.
- He accuses Umbrage of backtracking regarding how fast he wants people to post. This is another example of mudslinging because there is no scum motivation for what Umbrage did that I can think of.

Also, as Furcolow has already pointed out, he later "This's" the post of someone he thinks is scum, who is attacking someone who he just unvoted, and who he is about to vote again. To me this shows a lack of sincerity in his vote and unvote on el simo and his vote on Umbrage.

I'd like to address the following two posts specifically.

ISO12:
He says that there is a discrepancy between what el simo is saying and what he has done. I think this choice of words was designed to paint el simo as scummy, when asked to explain what the discrepancy is he says that he thinks el simo made a random or jokey vote, copped heat for it and that he is now trying to explain his way out of it. I think this is exactly what is happening, but there is no discrepancy.

He also says that he thinks el simo "was backed into the corner by an early vote," which is a bizarre attack because el simo is free to change his vote and doesn't really have to justify it.

He suggests el simo is scummy for posting five times in a row, which is more mudslinging.

ISO17 (Post 308):
Pro-town fluff: "I don't believe playing out the rvs for the rvs's sake is good play. I think the sooner a game gets out of the rvs the better. I don't think indiscriminate bandwagonning for the sake of a bandwagon is good."

"This comes out a bit harsh, but I agree with the spirit of it. Ever since VI's became an accepted part of mafiascum the game has become less fun/skill based imo."

Then he unvotes el simo for the vague reason of appearing townie over a few pages and for defending Furcolow.

[Furcolow]

Jumping on the leading bandwagon isn't compromising it's opportunistic scum.

To be fair, it could be both. In the context of how he did it though, it does seem scummy.

Ehh, Fugi's kind of right, oritz did receive some quick votes once deadline got extended. I understand why (hell, I voted him as well) but it still seems odd looking back. I'm honestly unsure about how to feel, although Z's voting of Admiral over his higher scumread does seem off as well. If one flips scum, I'll be highly suspicious of the other (although less so if Z flips scum than if oritz flips scum).

I still say 3K's slot is a good lynch. Going with my gut from earlier, plus we save diddin the trouble of finding another replacement. (b' ')b

not for me now that you've defended him too, and i've been viewing umbrage/zdenek as scummy
many people have defended umbrage
even olinea took a stance on him

[Furcolow]

however, after reading zdenek's post, i am not sure what i want to do with my vote. i believe it is on him, too, so i will

unvote

and i will consider getting behind an admiral lynch, but i'm not sure if you're town making a good case or scum playing us
im actually leaning towards the earlier
you cleared up my discretion, and you had actually COVERED that concept in your post, but it still raises an eyebrow and feels like an excuse for offputting why you're not voting ortiz

basically im going to be voting admiral, ortiz, or zdenek
i will do so based upon how they act over the next few days.

[el simo]

Jumping on the leading bandwagon isn't compromising it's opportunistic scum.

To be fair, it could be both. In the context of how he did it though, it does seem scummy.

Ehh, Fugi's kind of right, oritz did receive some quick votes once deadline got extended. I understand why (hell, I voted him as well) but it still seems odd looking back. I'm honestly unsure about how to feel, although Z's voting of Admiral over his higher scumread does seem off as well. If one flips scum, I'll be highly suspicious of the other (although less so if Z flips scum than if oritz flips scum).

I still say 3K's slot is a good lynch. Going with my gut from earlier, plus we save diddin the trouble of finding another replacement. (b' ')b

Yeah I should clarify that my suspicion of ortiz has cleared up by quite a bit now that I realize he was suspicious of sora, my vote is just on him atm because I don't know where else I want it to be.

Z's last post is good but iirc he didn't say I was scummy for posting 5 times in a row, just that it wasn't helping.

[sorasgoof]

I've been putting together my newb game, if anyone was wondering why I haven't posted much (on top of the school thing). I should be good now.