Newbie 1038: Welcome to the Jungle! (Game Over!)

[tanstalas]

Singer and Pine.. where are youuuuuuu?

[Uite]

I am still trying to put cases together. Lunatic never did this, he just hung around for the most part doing nothing.

That doesn't change your core argument that his reads were deliberately vague/changable, which is pretty much what you did as well at the start of the Day. It's the double standard you're displaying that I'm taking issue with, not actually your reads themselves.

Im not? What more then that do you really want here? I already have said my current reads on him more then once.

I know, but

"Mirror choppyness im torn on, I really dont see him playing like he did unless he is scum with Uite or tans."

really looks like you're calling him scum, which contradicts your other statements.

Some yes, all no. Humor me and let her answer them

Fine. If she gets back, you two duke it out. If she's to be replaced however, I want you to look at the replies she gave me.

[bv310]

Pine is being replaced, and I am going to be doing a mass prod tonight. Y'all are slacking in the activity department something fierce.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Nothing interesting is happening to talk about. Probably because nobody is talking. :/

[Uite]

Nothing interesting is happening to talk about. Probably because nobody is talking. :/

That, and we're missing two players who seriously need to get back to us. They, along with LlamaFluff, are pretty much our main talking points at the moment, yet they aren't here.

[LlamaFluff]

Actually a big problem is that we have two people not posting, Pine who is flaked from the site and singer who is avoiding the game but posting elsewhere.

I am still trying to put cases together. Lunatic never did this, he just hung around for the most part doing nothing.

That doesn't change your core argument that his reads were deliberately vague/changable, which is pretty much what you did as well at the start of the Day. It's the double standard you're displaying that I'm taking issue with, not actually your reads themselves.

They were bad to start, but I was ontop of getting them locked down ASAP, something that he never did.

Im not? What more then that do you really want here? I already have said my current reads on him more then once.

I know, but

"Mirror choppyness im torn on, I really dont see him playing like he did unless he is scum with Uite or tans."

really looks like you're calling him scum, which contradicts your other statements.

Im not calling him scum, im calling him a solid town read UNLESS one of two others are scum. The quickness that the read on him changes from probably scum to leaning town if one of the two flips scum is significant enough to bring up in that read.

We really should lynch singer today.

[Uite]

Im not calling him scum, im calling him a solid town read UNLESS one of two others are scum. The quickness that the read on him changes from probably scum to leaning town if one of the two flips scum is significant enough to bring up in that read.

"I really dont see him playing like he did unless he is scum with Uite or tans"

is equivalent to

"I can only see him playing like he did if he is scum with Uite or tans"

, which really is you calling him scum.

[LlamaFluff]

Im not calling him scum, im calling him a solid town read UNLESS one of two others are scum. The quickness that the read on him changes from probably scum to leaning town if one of the two flips scum is significant enough to bring up in that read.

"I really dont see him playing like he did unless he is scum with Uite or tans"

is equivalent to

"I can only see him playing like he did if he is scum with Uite or tans"

, which really is you calling him scum.

Right. I am saying he is town unless X or Y happens. That is saying he is probably town, but explaining the scenarios where he might not be town.

[singersigner]

Actually a big problem is that we have two people not posting, Pine who is flaked from the site and singer who is avoiding the game but posting elsewhere.

Patience, young padawan. I just got back to internet last night, and a new game had already started so I felt it necessary to at least post something before bed/a six hour rehearsal today. Your misrep is noted, though.

Anyway, catching up in this game now. Pine flaking is hugely sucky, since I would've liked a replacement in here before D1 was up in order to give them a couple days to get caught up during the night phase is they needed to. I'ma be pissed if he's scum and the replacement gets to ride it through tomorrow.

I'll be right back with responses to Llama, though at first glance, I'll agree with Uite that I think I've addressed most points already. We'll see.

Until I catch up again, Llama, can you please explain again how you got all your reads, other than VC analysis? I'm still baffled at the 180 you did between D1 and today. I mean, that's not condemning in itself, but I don't think you've justified your reasonings well. I'll explain that more in my catch up/responses to your case against me.

[tanstalas]

I got the prod, just munching on my popcorn waiting on Singer and Pine.. or rather Pine's replacement now. Mind is still set on Llama as being the best lynch for flip flopping more than a fish out of water among other reasons brought up by Uite

[MirrorIrorriM]

As for inactivity I am sorry, I have been watching this french anime-thing called Wakfu...Really frikken addicting. :U

and singer who is avoiding the game but posting elsewhere.

Although Singer already posted I'm going to comment on this anyways.

@ Llama: I remember there being this whole thing with you and finals. Where you "couldn't" post, but still actively did so in another game. Kinda seems hypocritical.

[bv310]

Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome your new Pinewolf, Concission!

[Concission]

Checking in.

[MirrorIrorriM]

Welcome Concission!

[LlamaFluff]

Until I catch up again, Llama, can you please explain again how you got all your reads, other than VC analysis? I'm still baffled at the 180 you did between D1 and today. I mean, that's not condemning in itself, but I don't think you've justified your reasonings well. I'll explain that more in my catch up/responses to your case against me.

I already explained the changed read of Uite quite a few times, I think my changed read of you is explained, tans didnt change, KTS didnt change, Mirror and Pine ive been doing my best to explain, and have my conditionals set up there.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

Hello Concission.

[singersigner]

Sorry for the double post, but it wouldn't let me post it all since it was so long. I wanted to get this in before another 6 hour rehearsal. I wouldn't want Llama complaining I went AWOL again.

unvote
Vote singer

Yes I know I must look completely rediculous right now but I just so freaking lost and think this really is the best way to find myself again.

1.

Early her reads seem to follow with the ones that are popular to an extent, Pine early, mention on Mirror. When she gets fully caught up (post 338 for people using VCA)

2.

she now passes off the Pine case for reasons never mentioned, same occurs with Mirror (at this point Pine wagon just fell onto DP). Now there is interest in DP and Uite though, interestingly enough this is during the DP wagon, and right before the Uite wagon picks up

3.

(also note singer was third vote on Uite, not initater).

1. I wonder what you expect a replacement to do...not talk about their reads on anyone but the person they're voting?
2. You then say that I pass off the Pine case "for reasons never mentioned" when in another post which you quoted

directly below this one

I said "Mirror and Pine were my stronger reads...but they've been consistently active in this game, and they responded fairly decently to DP in the last couple of pages."
3. Actually, as proven by your pretty awesome graph of VCs, I was second on the wagon, and only unvoted to give Uite a chance to catch up. I'm curious as to why you're nothing that I was "third," though. What's your reasoning for pointing that out?

I later posted my "scum reads" on everyone, but as you can clearly see, reads change. At the time I came in mentioning Pine and Mirror, they were simply the scummiest up until the point that I had read when I posted that.

Bolded parts both prove the afformentioned parts and some other points. Biggest one is the way she is putting pressure on lunatic here. In a few situations (bolded 2, 3) she almost seems to be pushing a policy lynch by arguing that he is very hard to read and a mostly useless player as opposed to scum. If you look at the case on him its (ironically) a sheep of king, lurking (what about pine here?) and... lunatic sheeping reads. Also remember we showed lurking is out the window, so its basically "what king said, also luntic is sheeping".

Lurking is out the window? How do you figure? You were just about to use that in an argument about me avoiding the game...
Policy lynch? Yeah, I guess it could be misconstrued as that, but that's not what I was going for. It's better to see his flip, and who was pushing for it, who avoided it, how people were reacting to his wagon, etc. By no means was it a punishment for not being active.
As for Pine, he never left my radar, and I specifically mentioned how that was frustrating, but that was fixed with his PM to the mod, etc, and Uite fixed Luna's lurking, but hadn't fixed the scummy play, IMO.

There is also a great way for get the wagons BACK onto the people that she just has brushed aside (pine, mirror, DP), as that will not do anything to effect the current reads on those players. She also says this in a way that implies that she thinks the three are scum, two of which she just brushed off as scum earlier in the same post. Next post is some more setting up of logical fallacy (which is saying it MUST be one of X or Y when it could be both, or neither) that will push the opposite lynch of DP/Uite for whoever survives.

Well, I didn't think it was both, I thought it was Uite. And clearly it's not. Now that DP's flip was town, I was going to look at Uite again; however, I digress. You seem to be putting me in a pickle.

After that post, singer just stops scumhunting for the most part. We have subtle shots at people, and mostly just discussion about what to do at deadline. Again interesting are things like this:

Both are quite scummy. But Luna is useless to us right now, and we have no idea if we can depend on a replacement before deadline hits.

This refers to DP and Uite, when singer has actually never said much of anything scummy about DP this entire game. The one line in the first quoted post is basically the entire reasoning I have found so far that would consititute a DP lynch excluding "deadline reasons". The mindset here reads heavily of trying to justify a vote for DP without really putting any direct pressure on him, while still leaving the Uite wagon for the lynch, or the next days lynch if DP goes through.

Did you disagree with that statement? Was DP not scummy in your eyes? As far as scumhunting, that's all relative. I had come in as a replacement, read the thread, posted my thoughts, and responded to Uite accordingly. What did you do?

Blah...while I really thought Luna/Uite was the better lynch, I don't like how DP's made it a more difficult decision. DP, your vote seems more out of desperation than anything else...what's the reason for it this time?

Again, a really bizzare bash of DP out of nowhere, just piggybacking on the DP hate that is coming from others. If you bother to read singer, you can see that she is laying down the framework to vote DP, but there never is a foundations. There NEVER is a mention of a case. For that matter there is very little mention of a Uite case, just telling us where to look for it. Most of the time she spends is picking up others attacks and pushing them with a lot of noise.

When Brent makes a move to put DP at L-1, singer goes off on him for doing so, while she apparently thinks DP is scummy at the same time.

Again, you keep pulling out that I'm "randomly bashing" DP, and that you "never saw signs of a case against him", and yet you keep quoting where I'm spouting my suspicions. I ask again, how innocent did DP look at the end of the day? His vote was scummy, and I was mad at him for messing with my reads on him yet again. Can you explain what your case on Uite was again? Because as far as I could tell, you were pushing Luna, yet conveniently kept your vote on Uite for the rest of the day, while I was the one pressuring the replacement for answers.

[singersigner]

My mild scum reads turned pretty town when I saw what was going on with DP.

I explained that I was going to vote him, but then ISOed everyone, and realized that Luna was the scummiest looking

. I thought it would be pretty clear that either lynch would be fine (like you quoted, either scum, or directly leading to catching scum), but I'd rather get rid of someone who wasn't contributing, but still acting scummy, than someone who was, and could potentially get better reads off later.

Since you're all caught up now, I don't really see a point in keeping my vote off of you

.

First im not so sure that she iso-ed lunatic and found him the scummiest, especially since her entire case is "what KTS said". I think this is just an over the top way to attack Uite. Also I really dont get the last part too much, it seems like she was waiting to see if Uite would be active and contribute, he does, and she immediately votes him because he is now caught up. The "isnt contributing" only applied to the lunatic era of the slot, so the point is gone. It seems more like a retaliation vote to Uite pressuring her which occurs in recent posts, which made her convinced that it was the right move to vote Uite over DP.

Ok, I guess you don't believe me, but such is life? The "isn't contributing" is part of the reason why I voted for Luna in the first place. The "not accepting his answers" is why I voted for Uite again. Which I explained.

So who was it anyways? I dont think you ever really told us that. What was the reasoning? What posts exactly changed this?

Actually I did explain that to Uite, which you would know if you read the thread, or ISOed me, as you seemed to urge everyone else to do. It was DP, and it was my fault for not stating that in my first post, which I corrected later in my post of "scum reads," which Uite prompted me to post after realizing I failed to explain that earlier, which you apparently missed?

Other votecount thoughts:

Pine is only has a shot to be scum if Mirror and tans are town
Uite is probably town
Pine town should mean at least of Mirror, tans scum
Pine-singer partners? Mirror-tans?

Why? These are your thoughts, but I don't feel as though they should be left unexplained.

[Concission]

Ok. Caught up to the thread. I have the impression that the scums are LlamaFluff and Uite.
LlamaFluff case upon reading:
- Asks too much questions with too little analysis of his own in early game.
- His excuse for non-contribution being that he has too many "town reads", alluding to the scum within perhaps.
- Votes for case but never push for what he believes in. Frequently being fine with voting "either".
- Becomes all frantic and finally trying to push for Singer's lynch when the lynch-ball is in his court.
- Night Kill choice subtly points to Llama-scum, with his "town read" killed off, he can easily push accusations on others without having to feint changing his mind.
Uite is probably scum in his interaction with Llama.
Others from townish to scummy are probably Mirror > Singer> King > Tanstalas.
I'm willing to hammer unless others have concerned about my reads.

[LlamaFluff]

Part 1/2

unvote
Vote singer

Yes I know I must look completely rediculous right now but I just so freaking lost and think this really is the best way to find myself again.

1.

Early her reads seem to follow with the ones that are popular to an extent, Pine early, mention on Mirror. When she gets fully caught up (post 338 for people using VCA)

2.

she now passes off the Pine case for reasons never mentioned, same occurs with Mirror (at this point Pine wagon just fell onto DP). Now there is interest in DP and Uite though, interestingly enough this is during the DP wagon, and right before the Uite wagon picks up

3.

(also note singer was third vote on Uite, not initater).

1. I wonder what you expect a replacement to do...not talk about their reads on anyone but the person they're voting?
2. You then say that I pass off the Pine case "for reasons never mentioned" when in another post which you quoted

directly below this one

I said "Mirror and Pine were my stronger reads...but they've been consistently active in this game, and they responded fairly decently to DP in the last couple of pages."
3. Actually, as proven by your pretty awesome graph of VCs, I was second on the wagon, and only unvoted to give Uite a chance to catch up. I'm curious as to why you're nothing that I was "third," though. What's your reasoning for pointing that out?

1 - Reading through your posts is almost exactly how the game progressed. Pine got talked about then everyone backed off him, I made a lot of noise regarding Mirror, eventually DP started taking heat. Your reads when you replace in? Pine is scummy then he gets dropped, Mirror may be scum but then DP is suddenly the scummiest player. This is basically following popular opinion the entire way through.
2 - Your turnaround is "responded well to DP". If you are calling some of my changes in reads lacking explaination this is even worse. If he was your top read for the entire game up to that point, no flips really makes it seem like a forced move over a natural one.
3 - By my graph you were the third one to join the wagon (#350) behind me and Brent. Again its a following the popular opinion for the most part since again you shift to where people already are.

Bolded parts both prove the afformentioned parts and some other points. Biggest one is the way she is putting pressure on lunatic here. In a few situations (bolded 2, 3) she almost seems to be pushing a policy lynch by arguing that he is very hard to read and a mostly useless player as opposed to scum. If you look at the case on him its (ironically) a sheep of king, lurking (what about pine here?) and... lunatic sheeping reads. Also remember we showed lurking is out the window, so its basically "what king said, also luntic is sheeping".

Lurking is out the window? How do you figure? You were just about to use that in an argument about me avoiding the game...

Context is key. Lunatic didnt lurk, he flaked. I went over that with Uite already. So that part of your case on him is gone.

Policy lynch? Yeah, I guess it could be misconstrued as that, but that's not what I was going for. It's better to see his flip, and who was pushing for it, who avoided it, how people were reacting to his wagon, etc. By no means was it a punishment for not being active.

Not policy lynched based upon lurking but based upon unreadability/useless. What else would this

It seems like of anyone, he's the least helpful to town

or this

Luna is, and will probably remain one of the hardest reads for town to get because of his fence-sitting, and general lack of compliance for participating in this game.

mean?

As for Pine, he never left my radar, and I specifically mentioned how that was frustrating, but that was fixed with his PM to the mod, etc, and Uite fixed Luna's lurking, but hadn't fixed the scummy play, IMO.

So Pine is still scummy then? First Ive heard you say that for quite a while. Nice lining up Uite for tomorrow after my town flip though.

You also ignored my point where you called lunatic scum for sheeping a case when your entire case becomes a sheep of KTS once we get rid of the invalid lurking part.

There is also a great way for get the wagons BACK onto the people that she just has brushed aside (pine, mirror, DP), as that will not do anything to effect the current reads on those players. She also says this in a way that implies that she thinks the three are scum, two of which she just brushed off as scum earlier in the same post. Next post is some more setting up of logical fallacy (which is saying it MUST be one of X or Y when it could be both, or neither) that will push the opposite lynch of DP/Uite for whoever survives.

Well, I didn't think it was both, I thought it was Uite. And clearly it's not. Now that DP's flip was town, I was going to look at Uite again; however, I digress. You seem to be putting me in a pickle.

Im not forcing you to vote in a certain direction. Look at what Uite tired to do near the end of the day. If you think he is scum, you push his lynch. Instead you seem like you are trying to justify a lynch of me so I will not be around to push your lynch in return. Do you really think I am going to flip scum here? It seems like you dont think I will, or am a neutral read, from most of your posts.

After that post, singer just stops scumhunting for the most part. We have subtle shots at people, and mostly just discussion about what to do at deadline. Again interesting are things like this:

Both are quite scummy. But Luna is useless to us right now, and we have no idea if we can depend on a replacement before deadline hits.

This refers to DP and Uite, when singer has actually never said much of anything scummy about DP this entire game. The one line in the first quoted post is basically the entire reasoning I have found so far that would consititute a DP lynch excluding "deadline reasons". The mindset here reads heavily of trying to justify a vote for DP without really putting any direct pressure on him, while still leaving the Uite wagon for the lynch, or the next days lynch if DP goes through.

Did you disagree with that statement? Was DP not scummy in your eyes? As far as scumhunting, that's all relative. I had come in as a replacement, read the thread, posted my thoughts, and responded to Uite accordingly. What did you do?

DP was a slight town read for me. I would have rather lynched about half the playerlist over him (Uite, tans, Mirror) he was about the same read as you. If you are asking what scumhunting I did... quite a bit. I think that I have been one of the most active people case wise for the entire game, trying to justify most of my reads (Brent, Mirror and Uite day one). Replacing is difficult, I will give you that, but you came in and mostly sheeped players reads.

[LlamaFluff]

2/2

Blah...while I really thought Luna/Uite was the better lynch, I don't like how DP's made it a more difficult decision. DP, your vote seems more out of desperation than anything else...what's the reason for it this time?

Again, a really bizzare bash of DP out of nowhere, just piggybacking on the DP hate that is coming from others. If you bother to read singer, you can see that she is laying down the framework to vote DP, but there never is a foundations. There NEVER is a mention of a case. For that matter there is very little mention of a Uite case, just telling us where to look for it. Most of the time she spends is picking up others attacks and pushing them with a lot of noise.

When Brent makes a move to put DP at L-1, singer goes off on him for doing so, while she apparently thinks DP is scummy at the same time.

Again, you keep pulling out that I'm "randomly bashing" DP, and that you "never saw signs of a case against him", and yet you keep quoting where I'm spouting my suspicions. I ask again, how innocent did DP look at the end of the day? His vote was scummy, and I was mad at him for messing with my reads on him yet again. Can you explain what your case on Uite was again? Because as far as I could tell, you were pushing Luna, yet conveniently kept your vote on Uite for the rest of the day, while I was the one pressuring the replacement for answers.

You werent making a case against DP really, just taking small shots at some of his posts for doing things that are expected of players in that situation (like the self-preservation vote). The way they were said, it also seemed like you did not want to move to a DP wagon, but wanted to leave it as a possibility so that you could shift over to that wagon if you ever thought that it was needed, and wanted to justify it near deadline well. That or be able to jump right on him the next day if Uite flipped town. Again, I had DP as a middling/slight town read at the end of the day.

Just about my entire case was on lunatic, he was very scummy throughout the entire game. Either way, you are trying to change the point here of what my case against you is by bringing up you pushing Uite.

- Votes for case but never push for what he believes in. Frequently being fine with voting "either".

Quotes to back that up? I remember saying I would vote X or Y over a different player a few times, or at deadline, but I would like yo see what you are talking about

- Night Kill choice subtly points to Llama-scum, with his "town read" killed off, he can easily push accusations on others without having to feint changing his mind.

I killed a town read that thought I was town?

Uite is probably scum in his interaction with Llama. Others from townish to scummy are probably Mirror > Singer> King > Tanstalas.

This is foolish. Your first pick for scum with me is who I tried to get lynched all of yesterday, who tried to get me lynched at the end of day one, and is trying to get me lynched today? Your second picks are the player that I pushed most of yesterday and the player I am pushing today?

Open question to everyone actually. Who do you think even works as a partner to me? I have to have a partner if I am scum. Think about that before you start blindly calling me scum here. Paying attention to where partners may lie is a great way to get a good read on people.

[MirrorIrorriM]

Open question to everyone actually. Who do you think even works as a partner to me? I have to have a partner if I am scum. Think about that before you start blindly calling me scum here. Paying attention to where partners may lie is a great way to get a good read on people.

Didn't you blame me for trying to find scumbuddies without first knowing someone's alignment? This sounds like coaching explicitly for the reason of getting attention off you.

Others from townish to scummy are probably Mirror > Singer> King > Tanstalas.

First off you put me, the person who pushed your predecessor religiously (totally still think pine is scum, your gonna have to fix that if you can ) as your "most innocent player". Seems pretty suspicious to me.

Second you put Singer as second most innocent person on the list. This makes little sense to me because of how sketchy she seems. I only don't find her scummy because I think Llama is scummier and Llama is pushing her close to a lynch. What are your reasons for thinking she is innocent when so many think otherwise?

And lastly you put King near the end of that list, why? He is regarded as being quite towny by pretty much everyone. Or is that simply a "all 4 of these people are super close together suspicion wise, but I'll still put them in order" kinda thing.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

UNVOTE

Gonna get some sleep now and post something when it isn't 6:30 in the morning and stuff. Don't hammer nobody yet mr.
...
Whatever your name is. SLEEP DEPRIVATION.

[KingTwelveSixteen]

1. Llama you didn't answer this one.

...

Other votecount thoughts:

Pine is only has a shot to be scum if Mirror and tans are town
Uite is probably town
Pine town should mean at least of Mirror, tans scum
Pine-singer partners? Mirror-tans?

Why? These are your thoughts, but I don't feel as though they should be left unexplained.

2. I do believe you

specifically

said not to do this earlier. Oh wait, quick ISO shows that you said something else.

...
Open question to everyone actually. Who do you think even works as a partner to me? I have to have a partner if I am scum. Think about that before you start blindly calling me scum here. Paying attention to where partners may lie is a great way to get a good read on people.

...
Not as sure if this is a tell, but its worth pointing out at this point that its a bad thing to do, and scum LOVE to do it. If you start searching for a partner before night, scum can manipulate the heck out of reads, and have better ideas of what good night actions are. Especially with Pine not being confirmed scum, if Pine flips scum, we just got two weeks of noise to deal with. Starting step B before step A finishes can cause problems.
...

...
Well, if scum knows they have a cop confirmed guilty on them the best play is to actually stop posting entirely if they know they cant get the cop lynched in return. Its fine to think about who partners are, I do that all the time whenever I push someone. I even think about it as scum when I make pushes of who I can make look like partners to who. Its a very dangerous thing to start discussing publicly though because it can easily be manipulated beyond reason. Its rare to get a 100% for sure scum flip though, ive been playing for over two years and I only have been more then about 80-90% sure of a scum flip just a few times
...

Please note that asking people to put their reads up for everyone to see would, in fact, count as discussing it publicly.
Oh, but if you want to know: Concission. You defended Pine a lot and right now Concission is bussing you in an attempt to get townie points, since he seems to think you are going to be lynched anyway regardless of what he does.
3. Oh hey just noticed this while ISOing you.

...
Pine

I have changed my tune on

due to not really liking the wagon that is forming on him. Most of the people that are voting him are people that I have somewhat of a scumread on, which is a sign of a mislynch in most games. This coupled with the reaction posts that Pine has been putting up make me thing that he is town.
...

You never said Pine was scum. Your previous posts on Pine seemed to imply that you thought he was town, what with the defending him and all. But after this "change of tune" you proceed to call him town for what I believe is the entire remainder of the game.

[tanstalas]

Man, I must say, I like these newbies, they are asking questions and pointing out stuff I didn't even see