Mini 1108 - Mutiny on the High Seas - Game Over

[Nexus]

And yes, I realise the irony of answering whilst v/la, but since none of you paid a blind bit of attention to me saying it in the first place, maybe some reiteration will get it into your heads. I'll have a re read of the thread shortly.

[AurorusVox]

Doom: why do you think that pressuring a player who is declared V/LA is a productive venture?

[Umbrage]

If he's leaving doors open WHY wasn't that your point against him.

First ye say I's town fer no good reason. Den you say you'd LIKES to say Liar's scum (why?), but youse has a town read on 'im too? Ye can say later dat ye always tought he was scum if he gets a wagon. I smells a scum wantin' ta back out of a tight spot.

The first and third quotes also show a tendency to leave a door open, so you can hop on a wagon if it forms, but stay safely away if it doesn't.

Declares the plan is bad but, the "except" shows that he's still for it. He's keeping his options open, not taking a stance, because he's saying "I wouldn't be for it, I don't think it's a good idea" --- "except I am for it." I think its shifty.

How is it shifty when I've held that same position the whole time. Suddenly turning around and saying it was a totally bad idea, that would be shifty. I kept my original POV, but circumstances had changed. You're saying that chesskid3 not having any good reasoning to back up his idea wasn't a major flaw in the plan? I should've just went along with whatever he said?

[chesskid3]

LA for the next 48 hours

sorry
take home final due
and i haven't done much of it at all fmllllllllllllllll

[AurorusVox]

RE: ISO #11
/embarrassment of AV

Hooeyy. I have been completely off the ball. I blame my essay.

---

No you shouldn't have gone along with what anyone had said, you should have had your own reasons and thoughts as regards the MC (which, ironically, you did). But the fact remains that these thoughts of your own - that it was a bad idea - do not mesh with your stance on the massclaim, which was shifty. Explicitly, what I'm suggesting is that I'd have found it less scummy for you to say "I think its a bad idea. I don't support it."

I think you've contradicted yourself and I find contradictions are a useful scumtell, which is why I've pushed you so hard on it, even though it is only a minor thing. But this latest post (specifically the second half, i.e. your utter lack of acknowledgement of any shred of scumminess to your actions) is making it seem like you can't even conceive of why anyone would find you scummy, i.e. making you seem like, as I said earlier, a blinkered townie. Couple that with my mistake (I need to start ISOing again...my recent games have put me out of the habit =_=") and I'm willing to downgrade you from "Scum" to "Null leaning town."

Unvote

[Liar]

What's your point?

Lordy. Look at that post you linked of mine. Yes in #86 Chess says the townread is gone because he thinks Umbrage is misrepping him (I don't see that as OMGUS either btw, but that's not what I'm debating here*). My "point" is that in post #88 Chess states that he in fact STILL sees Umbrage as town. Chess says "I'm having a hard time seeing him as scum" i.e. he's not as sure as before, but he's

not calling him scum

. Isn't a central part of OMGUS that you call everyone who questions/attacks you scum? My "point" is that as scum, he's more likely to see it as someone calling him scum

because he knows they're right

than see it as someone calling him town (since that

is

incorrect). Chess called him town. He saw it as scum.

For clarification. OMGUS is reading town or Mafia based on whether or not they agree with you.

Umbrage accused Chesskid of OMGUS actions in post 85. (See point 1)
In addition, you are completely ignoring post 86. This is a statement of chesskid's intentions. This is where Chess called Umbrage Scum. Don't just skip posts
In addition, Chesskid is still saying that he still suspects Umbrage. He did not give Umbrage a green read like you said.

Declares the plan is bad but, the "except" shows that he's still for it. He's keeping his options open, not taking a stance, because he's saying "I wouldn't be for it, I don't think it's a good idea" --- "except I am for it." I think its shifty.

I am reading a FOS Nexus and Shadow on the post. How is this keeping his options open?
In addition why would anyone need to keep his options open on a plan that was grounded the moment it poped out of Chesskids mouth?
In addition, how would you address Umbrage's positions on Chesskid and Nexus. Are these also shifty?

And now a question for you AurorusVox. How experienced are you in mafia?

[Umbrage]

RE: ISO #11
/embarrassment of AV

Hooeyy. I have been completely off the ball. I blame my essay.

---

No you shouldn't have gone along with what anyone had said, you should have had your own reasons and thoughts as regards the MC (which, ironically, you did). But the fact remains that these thoughts of your own - that it was a bad idea - do not mesh with your stance on the massclaim, which was shifty. Explicitly, what I'm suggesting is that I'd have found it less scummy for you to say "I think its a bad idea. I don't support it."

I think you've contradicted yourself and I find contradictions are a useful scumtell, which is why I've pushed you so hard on it, even though it is only a minor thing. But this latest post (specifically the second half, i.e. your utter lack of acknowledgement of any shred of scumminess to your actions) is making it seem like you can't even conceive of why anyone would find you scummy, i.e. making you seem like, as I said earlier, a blinkered townie. Couple that with my mistake (I need to start ISOing again...my recent games have put me out of the habit =_=") and I'm willing to downgrade you from "Scum" to "Null leaning town."

Unvote

This is a bad post. You've tunneled on me the entire game. Now you're trying to make some sort of compromise, like "what you did was scummy but I think you're town" in the hopes that I'll forget all the bad cases you made on me that I shot down. If I contradicted myself, show me where.

But the fact remains that these thoughts of your own - that it was a bad idea - do not mesh with your stance on the massclaim, which was shifty.

I never lied about my stance on the MC. I don't see how I could've made it clearer. This is not a black and white issue. There are points for an MC, and points against. It's silly to only look at one side of the argument. This is the stance I've held since the beginning. I've never had a game where an MC was proposed before. I didn't have an opinion about them to start with. I listened to the opinions of others, and threw in my POV on the matter. You're acting like a person can either be for MCs or against them. Either they are pure good, or pure evil. That's just silly. I have been honest about my thought patterns throughout the game. I never lied. I never misrepresented. Having a change of opinion when there is reason to effect a change of opinion is not scummy.

I think you've contradicted yourself and I find contradictions are a useful scumtell, which is why I've pushed you so hard on it, even though it is only a minor thing.

Is this about my stance on the MC? If so, see above. If not, please clarify what contradictions I've made.

But this latest post (specifically the second half, i.e. your utter lack of acknowledgement of any shred of scumminess to your actions) is making it seem like you can't even conceive of why anyone would find you scummy, i.e. making you seem like, as I said earlier, a blinkered townie.

What exactly am I supposed to acknowledge? So far, there's been no argument you've made where I haven't either put together a solid defence, or outright managed to convince you otherwise. This is smearing. Basically, you're saying that since you haven't managed to put together a good case on me, I'm at fault. I can see why people would think I'm scummy: I mix up the players in this game, I can be distracting with a tendency to ramble and make huge posts, and I often don't express myself clearly enough. But I've never contradicted myself, or done anything that you claim I've done.

But now, suddenly, I look town to you? What the hell? If you had any solid evidence that I'm scum, you wouldn't let it drop. But if you didn't have any solid evidence, you wouldn't say I refuse to acknowledge points made against me.

Up until now, I've been working under the assumption that you're town who hasn't had the time to read my statements properly, or misunderstood a few things. But this post is making me question that. This is a poor cop-out of an invalid scumread.

I want to know who you now think is scum, and why. You've tunneled on me the whole game.

[AurorusVox]

In addition, Chesskid is still saying that he still suspects Umbrage. He did not give Umbrage a green read like you said.

He said he had trouble seeing him as scum. So he did not give Umbrage a scum read either.

I am reading a FOS Nexus and Shadow on the post. How is this keeping his options open?
In addition why would anyone need to keep his options open on a plan that was grounded the moment it poped out of Chesskids mouth?

He's keeping his options open with regards to the plan. I don't know why he'd want to do it, but it was contradictory, which is why I didn't like it.

In addition, how would you address Umbrage's positions on Chesskid and Nexus. Are these also shifty?

I actually ISO'd this time /facepalm

As I said earlier, his Chess case reminds me of how I played against Chess in our first game together. We butted heads a lot, because of some suspect things Chess did that was probably just the way he plays. I can't see him wanting to let go of Chess for the future, which might become distracting, but for now I'm treating Chess as town and Umbrage as misguided.

The Nexus suspicion is okay. I think the analysis of Nexus' voting is better than the lack of contribution element, since a lot of players could be accused of the same or similar. Pretty null.

His Jedo analysis is good, tho (Y)

And now a question for you AurorusVox.* How experienced are you in mafia?

*Wait, weren't those others questions? xD

I can link you my Wiki if you like so you can judge for yourself, but in my opinion I'm an okay player on average with a fair amount of experience on chat mafia and about as much as you'd experience from ~10months on here. I've seen how to play well from other players which has helped, and I have the right sort of head for logic/linguistic analytical play. But I play a much better game as scum, because as town I always second guess myself and end up looking scummy. But I prefer being town. Less pressure ><"

/Umbrage post incoming

[AurorusVox]

This is a bad post. You've tunneled on me the entire game. Now you're trying to make some sort of compromise, like "what you did was scummy but I think you're town" in the hopes that I'll forget all the bad cases you made on me that I shot down. If I contradicted myself, show me where.

THIS IS MY BLINKEREDTOWNIE POINT. I have shown you where I think you've contradicted yourself. Saying you are for and against something at the same time is a contradiction. You thought MC was bad (against) "except" because of Nexus/Shadow, you supported it (for).

Also, lol, "entire game" rhetoric ahoy. Thread's been open, what, two days? I thought you were scummy and have been strapped for time. So I focussed my efforts on you.

What exactly am I supposed to acknowledge? [...] But I've never contradicted myself, or done anything that you claim I've done.

See above for why you HAVE contradicted yourself imo. I'm not expecting you to break down and claim that you're scum. I'm saying that you seem to be essentially ignoring what I'm actually saying because it does not compute.

But now, suddenly, I look town to you? What the hell? If you had any solid evidence that I'm scum, you wouldn't let it drop. But if you didn't have any solid evidence, you wouldn't say I refuse to acknowledge points made against me.

I have let it drop because you've refused to acknowledge the points made against you. And what rhetoric again, "suddenly" - no, I made it quite clear that my read of you had started to change earlier. I don't know why you're expecting iron-clad cases in a game that's on IRL day two. I pushed a weakish case hard to try to get your reactions. I wasn't satisfied at first and so I pushed harder. But your recent play has been more satisfying.

Up until now, I've been working under the assumption that you're town who hasn't had the time to read my statements properly, or misunderstood a few things. But this post is making me question that. This is a poor cop-out of an invalid scumread.

Excuse me, but didn't I actually acknowledge that this has partly been my problem? I've got a fat-off essay to hand in tomorrow so yes, I haven't had the sort of time I'd have liked, and I've been having fly-by visits here as distractions so yes, I haven't paid as much attention or done as much background checking as I probably should have. You thought it because...that's what the reason was. As I said. In the exact post you quoted.

I want to know who you now think is scum, and why. You've tunneled on me the whole game.

Again with the "entire game" rhetoric, wow. I think your points against Jedo were good. That was what started me thinking of you as town. I don't really have any other scumreads because yes, I've been focussing on you. But no one else has really done that much up til now that looks that bad because the game's still in the early stages.

Yarr.

[Doombunny9]

1. I already explained. It causes unnecessary distractions, in my opinion.

asdfjdsfsedsf... Alright, I can see that you think it takes longer to understand but what's wrong with that?

2. Because that's what I think, that's what I was always taught to look at when I first started.

But

HOW

is it scummy. I know you think it's scummy but why?

Doom: why do you think that pressuring a player who is declared V/LA is a productive venture?

I forgot about it when I made the post. I'd still like to see full answers when he's off V/LA

For clarification. OMGUS is reading town or Mafia based on whether or not they agree with you.

This is wrong. Please see http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Omgus

Basically, OMGUS is FoSing or voting someone just because they FoS or vote you. chess has repeatedly stated that he has his doubts about Umbrage and has given points to support his case meaning he's not just voting Umbrage because Umbrage thinks he's scum.

[Umbrage]

But no one else has really done that much up til now that looks that bad because the game's still in the early stages.

So, no opinions on chesskid3, Nexus, anyone else?

Sigh... I just thought of a pretty good reason why AV is town: why would scum want to tunnel on me? When he started, I was probably the most pro-town player in the game. It just doesn't make sense, and his posts seem like honest town to me.

I'm crossing AV off my list of suspects for now. Nexus, chesskid3, and Jedo are way worse. They all need more attention.

More people need to start posting.

Addendum: OMGUS, the way I use it, means creating an attack in response to an attack made on you. It doesn't even have to progress to votes. Chesskid3's change of read on me was in direct response to my attack on him, that's obvious. OMGUS isn't necessarily a scumtell, but it suggests poor scum hunting and emotional play. I see OMGUS as scummy when it's used as a form of defence, as in: "You're scummy!" "Well you're MORE scummy!!!". This is an intentional distraction. You'll notice chesskid3 used large fonts, caps, and wrote in a very passionate, attention-grabbing manner when he made a case on me. I see it as an attempt to shift the focus off of him and onto me.

[chesskid3]

lol
"most pro-town player in the game"
loooooool

[Umbrage]

lol
"most pro-town player in the game"
loooooool

Well, who do you think was the most pro-town? And please don't say yourself. Proposing a mass name claim and then flipping out at the slightest hint of suspicion on you is not pro-town.

(Note: I said I WAS most pro-town. As for the most pro-town player now, I'd have to say Liar.)

[Nero Cain]

He's more pro-town than you Chess and you're anti town weather you've been given a town or scum pm.

[AurorusVox]

I've said already that I think Chess is town but you didn't ask for townreads :\
I also gave my opinion on your case on Nexus. His voting at the start was odd, but I don't find his non-appearance to be a big deal considering everyone's doing it.

Also, re: OMGUS - if you use a well-known term in your own unique way, you're going to have to expect to be pushed to explain what you mean. What do you make of him calling it "misrep"? Doesn't accusing someone of misrep require that the person is attacking you?

[chesskid3]

hyperdefensive is not pro-town.
Most of pages 4-8 didn't need to exist.
That's why I'm lolling at your assertation.
That being said, I have townreads, but townread is not the same as "most pro-town player".

[Shadow1psc]

Sorry for the inactivity. I am reading, im just not able to post much. Normal (lots of) activity tomorrow morning. I play the most when at work during the week

[Umbrage]

hyperdefensive is not pro-town.

what the fuck?
You get every single fucking thing wrong.
I said I'd like to think

LIAR

was scum, but I have a townread.
I ANSWERED NC's questions, unless you'd like to show me where I didn't answer one.
I dropped MC because it's like 7 against 1 for?

I called you town for a post i quoted, not because you agreed with me

Your townread is gone.
you chewed it up
swallowed it
and puked it back out
and then crapped on it

[chesskid3]

hyperdefensive is not pro-town.

what the fuck?
You get every single fucking thing wrong.
I said I'd like to think

LIAR

was scum, but I have a townread.
I ANSWERED NC's questions, unless you'd like to show me where I didn't answer one.
I dropped MC because it's like 7 against 1 for?

I called you town for a post i quoted, not because you agreed with me

Your townread is gone.
you chewed it up
swallowed it
and puked it back out
and then crapped on it

Your point?

[Umbrage]

hyperdefensive is not pro-town.

what the fuck?
You get every single fucking thing wrong.
I said I'd like to think

LIAR

was scum, but I have a townread.
I ANSWERED NC's questions, unless you'd like to show me where I didn't answer one.
I dropped MC because it's like 7 against 1 for?

I called you town for a post i quoted, not because you agreed with me

Your townread is gone.
you chewed it up
swallowed it
and puked it back out
and then crapped on it

Your point?

Oh, nothing...

[Liar]

I am reading a FOS Nexus and Shadow on the post. How is this keeping his options open?
In addition why would anyone need to keep his options open on a plan that was grounded the moment it poped out of Chesskids mouth?

He's keeping his options open with regards to the plan. I don't know why he'd want to do it, but it was contradictory, which is why I didn't like it.

What about the FOS on Nexus and Shadow? In light of that is it still contradictory?

I believe that was the last point you had not conceded. Just wondering. Do you still read "Null leaning town." on Umbridge. If so why?

[Umbrage]

I am reading a FOS Nexus and Shadow on the post. How is this keeping his options open?
In addition why would anyone need to keep his options open on a plan that was grounded the moment it poped out of Chesskids mouth?

He's keeping his options open with regards to the plan. I don't know why he'd want to do it, but it was contradictory, which is why I didn't like it.

What about the FOS on Nexus and Shadow? In light of that is it still contradictory?

I believe that was the last point you had not conceded. Just wondering. Do you still read "Null leaning town." on Umbridge. If so why?

Liar, I love you, you're doing a great job in the game, but if you call me Umbridge one more time, I'm going to have to kill you.

[Liar]

I would rather not that occur, and Umbrage please accept my apology.

[chesskid3]

CK: 64 posts
Umbrage: 51 posts
Vox: 22 posts
Liar: 18 posts
Nexus: 16 posts
Shadow: 13 posts
Nero Cain: 11 posts (all of them in some way related to PL on CK, but that's besides the point)
Doombunny: 9 posts
Smargret: 8 posts
Jedo: 3 posts
IS: 2 posts
Joan: 1 post

who sees the problem?

[smargaret]

It would be easier to post more if the person I'm most interested in hearing from wasn't v/la, and the rest of you would discuss something new - when was the last time any of the three of you had anything new to contribute to the thread that wasn't either a defense or a rebuttal of a defense? You're arguing the same point over and over and over again.