Mini 1108 - Mutiny on the High Seas - Game Over

[Umbrage]

Welcome!

@ all who found my case on chesskid3 scummy:

I see chesskid3 as scum. You can see it differently, everything's subjective in this game. But bad reasoning is scummy, and it should not be excused because the player is a VI. I'm sick of my case on CK3 being boiled down to "bad reasoning". I've done a lot more than that, and maybe if I wasn't forced to repeat myself all the time, I'd have even more.

bristep, your argument boils down to "cases on a VI are scummy". This is nonsense. Show me something explicitly scummy about my case. Just as being a VI doesn't make you town, being more 'composed' does not make you scum. chesskid3 is not immune to questioning and suspicion.

*********

And FUCK YOU IS. Reported.

[smargaret]

bristep: No, I never said I was 70-80% sure you were scum. I said on a scale of 1-10, 10 being as obvscum as you can get, you were a 7-8. That scale has everyone starting at null (5) except myself (1, as obvtown as you get). It's not a percentage type of thing, but a measure of how far you've deviated away from the initial null read. Apologies if that was unclear.

IS: Yeah, I feel about the phrase "that's so gay" about the same as I feel about "that's so retarded." Which is to say, I don't like it at all. There's a difference between ad hom (which, reading shadow in iso, I didn't see that much of) and downright offensive. Cut it out, please.

[Internet Stranger]

That whole arbitrary number scale thing is a crutch normally used by scum to hide their intentions too, btw. Just like policy lynches. All it does is stifles conversation because the system becomes the focus.

Chess could be dumb or he could be scum. The fact that none of you can tell either way is the genius part of his plan. It doesnt mean that he needs to be lynched for it though. Not yet at least.

Wow margaret, that last one flew right over your head, didnt it? You see, I was using it because Bristep.. oh nevermind.

[Shadow1psc]

You give me much more credit than I deserve IS.

These AREN'T the droids you're looking for... yar.

[bristep123]

@Internet Stranger I just looked through Shadow's posts, can you point out the ad hominem remarks made towards you because I can't see them. He is throwing WIFOM around and not backing it up by explaining it, but again with other points I've made it doesn't make it less valid. I do however think that WIFOM is a bad tact to take, because everything can be bottled down to WIFOM if you really want to. I think Shadow is one to watch and perhaps needs some questioning He hasn't made any real in depth contributions yet, so yes he could just be lurking in the middle of the pack. With that said, I think that there are other more valid lynches to pursue at this point.

@SMargaret Ok, I hear what you are saying but really? Scale of 1 to 10 or percentages, is there a difference? Taking 5 as the median at therefore 0 (null), 1 would be -100% (Town confirmed all but) and 10 would be 100% (Scum confirmed all but). That makes 7-8/10 40-60%. It's still an indication of how scummy you think they are. You are 60% sure, which means you are leaning towards them being scum but aren't sure. I'm sorry but you can't use a scale to indicate how close you feel someone is to being certain scum but then say that if they aren't at 10 then it's still a null read but that they are acting scummy. It contradicts your logic, and yes it smacks of scumminess.

bristep, your argument boils down to "cases on a VI are scummy". This is nonsense. Show me something explicitly scummy about my case. Just as being a VI doesn't make you town, being more 'composed' does not make you scum. chesskid3 is not immune to questioning and suspicion.

Actually that's not what my argument boils down to at all. I did not say that you being composed makes you scum, because that's a daft line to take. There is also no explicit thing which is scummy, because unless you made a mistake there wouldn't be given that a scum player would be very careful not to give the game away. It's your overall play which has led me to feel that you are scum, I think Jedo did a good job and made good points covering what I had seen myself and to my mind you did not give a response which sways my opinion. Again this is something you've done a lot, you have (maybe deliberately) tried to misdirect the argument into something you could argue against and rubbish. I'm happy to go and ISO through and pick out points when you've done that to support what I've said, that will take some time but since there's still 10 days until the end of the day phase there is plenty of just that.

[Shadow1psc]

@Internet Stranger I just looked through Shadow's posts, can you point out the ad hominem remarks made towards you because I can't see them. He is throwing WIFOM around and not backing it up by explaining it, but again with other points I've made it doesn't make it less valid. I do however think that WIFOM is a bad tact to take, because everything can be bottled down to WIFOM if you really want to. I think Shadow is one to watch and perhaps needs some questioning He hasn't made any real in depth contributions yet, so yes he could just be lurking in the middle of the pack. With that said, I think that there are other more valid lynches to pursue at this point.

I'm not lurking, I'm just having trouble finding much to say. I kept throwing "WIFOM" at CK's questions because they (in particular) were terrible, and as someone else pointed out right away, inconsequential and unhelpful (because of WIFOM). I was just tired of playing the back and forth with him because he seems to have enough trouble already after having read the back and forth with him and Umbrage.

Having said that though, I reply when someone says something to/about me, and I post my own thoughts where I think they're warrented on a situation. Between CK, IS and a replace, I'm just waiting for this game to really begin, especially if IS is also going to be replaced for whatever offense he gave. If you'd like to question me about anything, I'll certainly answer though. I feel like with 5 days in (weekend aside, it's now Tuesday) we should have had more content from a couple other people. Lemme figure out who they are xD

[Shadow1psc]

Joan and Nero I don't recall at all.

[Shadow1psc]

Joan posted once saturday and never returned. Was Joan already replaced and I missed it >.>?

@MOD: ^ above

Nero needs much more content.

[PranaDevil]

JoanBud has been prodded

[AurorusVox]

Indeed, but Shadow is pushing Chesskid3 as a policy lynch, rather than trying to paint him as Scum.

Which of those (PL/paint scum) do you think scum are most likely to do to a VI?

Both town and mafia would do the same thing, go for a policy lynch. Town because of shear frustration. Scum because a PL would be easier to pull off.

Are you frustrated with Chess?

---

Jedo, Brit - what do you make of Umbrage's

reactions

to my points about the MC issue/OMGUS claim against Chess? The confidence I had in my read was shaken a bit when I realised how I'd misread him in a few places. Do you think that's tainted my read on him overall?

---

People who are voting Chess: can you just clarify whether this is a

policy

vote or something additional from this game that supports him being scum?

[Shadow1psc]

Mine started as a policy vote, but I think he's deliberately playing dumb. That whole mass claim idea debacle was also pretty scummy. It could probably still be classified as a policy vote, I'm just looking for something else scummy to happen, I don't expect a speed policy lynch.

[chesskid3]

then go iso smargret

[chesskid3]

oh and for the record
read over games where people suggest MC day 1
check how many of them are scum
???
profit.

[Shadow1psc]

Using meta as defense is scummy.

[chesskid3]

oh
my
god

not even my games
pick ANY GODDAMN GAME YOU WANT
AND GO SEE
IF IT'S DONE MAINLY BY TOWN
IT'S CALLED A TOWNTELL
AND IT'S NOT META
ARE YOU DUMB?

[Shadow1psc]

You realize scum can hide behind town tells, and that it's actually scummy to say "Hey, only town does this, I'm doing it, I must be town!"

[Internet Stranger]

OMG.. that means... scum are EVERYWHERE!
(I still say lynching Shadow is a good bet.)

[Shadow1psc]

I just think it silly to defend oneself by saying something is town. "Omg I did this, and only town can do this!"

[chesskid3]

I'm pointing out how you saying suggesting MC is scummy
is retarded
towntell != scummy
yes scum can do towntells
but
by definition
a towntell
cannot
possibly be scummy

[Jedo the Jedi]

You got me, that was my evil plan: taking advantage of the narrow window of opportunity to successfully OMGUS. And I would've gotten away with it too! Or............... it was coincidence. It was RVS. I didn't care who was third on that joke wagon. For me to OMGUS, that implies that I must have taken Nexus' vote on me as a threat. To which I say again: RVS.

I know you didn't care who was third, but Nexus did. You then voted him for voting the third player on the wagon. I don't know how much closer to OMGUS you can get.

Show where I misquoted then.

Hasn't this already been done before? Fine. Here is your post:

@ Aurorus Vox:

Are you voting for me simply because I based my support for a mass claim on the reactions of other players?

That's just stupid.

The entire point of an early mass claim is to catch scum off guard.

Terrible.

No, Chesskid.

You don't think that's just a TAD scummy? Not even stopping to consider the benefits?

You did quote one of Shadow's post correctly, but he clarified it

in the very next post

.

And to clarify that, it'd be hard to organize everyone at once, and without that there's no way for anyone to tell what the flavor split is, as scum are just gonna follow the first couple claims' examples.

This is my first theme on this particular site, but do scum get a safelist? And is it common for there to be flavor attached or written by the host for that list? I know different sites have different opinions on this.

And here is the fullness of Nexus' post.

No, Chesskid.

I've played in Prana games before, and his flavour has nothing to do with alignment.

Nexus can certainly clarify this for himself, but I bet what he is saying (since God knows I can't know what other players are thinking) is that it would be unhelpful because we wouldn't know the alignment just by flavour (which he later equates to names). In fact, he's the one who posted this:

I know PranaDevil's theme games. I've played them before. I know that names have no bearing on anything.

Elizabeth Swann was a traitor in the last game he ran. Generally, names make jack difference.

Look! This happens to be the post I was referring to in my last post to which you replied:

?

Well, for one thing: "I still don't know what he attempted to achieve with an MC.". There's reasoning that doesn't hold up under pressure, and there's reasoning that just makes no sense. For example, you can argue the world is flat, which is not true, but you can see how it might seem true, and it will take a lot of work to disprove it. On the other hand, you can argue the entire world is pink, which makes no sense.

He attempted to make it difficult for scum later in the game when they would have to stick to their claim. The goal was tripping up scum. I'm sure you know that as well as anybody else. The problem with his whole suggestion is that it wouldn't work as beautifully as he wanted it to and end up being more of a burden for the town. That's why most people were opposed to it. (Except you, of course. Wait, were you for it or against it? I can't remember.[/sarcasm]) It's just bad reasoning on chesskid's part. Good strawman, by the way.

You saying I misrepresented something is not proof of me misrepresenting something. I don't even know what it is I'm supposed to have misrepresented.

Of course you don't. How could I expect cognizance from you at this point in the game? You certainly can't seem to follow along with people's arguments. I'll try once more. Your post:

Fer de record, as far as fourth page reads go, me tinks chesskid3 is scum.

1) He pushes de mass name claim wit no good reason. Scum makin' up fake claims we can't prove are fake claims is not a good reason to be a'claimin.

2) He calls me town 'cause I agreed wit him. Not good logic dere.

(

Highlighted so we know exactly what we are talking about.

)
3) He says dat he'd like ta say NC[sic] is scum 'cause he didn't agree wit 'im. There's no udder reason he gives for dat.
4) He won't answer NC's questions.
5) He lets the MC issue drop witout mooch complaint. Dis is scummy 'cause it shows he don't care mooch aboot it.

I was only fer de mass claim 'cause I was suspicious o' Shadow 'n MC[sic] actin' like dey did. But now, chess is way worse den dem.

He doesn't, in fact, call you town

because

you agreed with him. He actually doesn't specify why that post (where you

incidentally

agree with him) makes you town, just that something in that post signifies your townieness. Here.

I be fer a name claim jus coz Nexus 'n Shadow are so against it. But me not picky.

This is why you're town.

Therefore, your claim of him not having good logic (and therefore of being scum) is based on a faulty claim of your own. (I myself don't think there can be any good reason why that post signifies you as town, but that's beside the point. It wouldn't make him scum either way.) Does that do a good enough job of showing how you misrepresented him? If not, you can look at the next section.

'Aggravating' him? What does that mean? It was my fault he used OMGUS?

I think you know perfectly well what it means. From IS's posts, I believe he knows what it means. I bet a few other people also know what it means. If you can't figure it out, that's not my problem. Also, on whom did he use OMGUS? If I've followed correctly (which is hard to do with all of your side-stepping), you are referring to your posts #96 and #97 which are followed by this post:

afafuiajfaodsfjaijdfoasjdfaodsjfafd

MC on D1 forces scum to PICK A CLAIM
then
when we have flips
if a claim looks REALLY REALLY OUT OF LINE WITH ALL THE FLIPS
BYE BYE SCUM
JESUS
HOW IS THIS HARD

no townread but not scumread---->nullread duh.

Also I really don't care if you think I'm scum or not, because you're a goddamn VI

That's not OMGUS. In fact, he doesn't vote you and say you are scum until about two pages later. I put a case on you and vote you, you then vote me right back. This is what chess has to say after that:

hahahahahah after accusing me of omgus
hahahahahahahh
aaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahah
fuck this
Unvote
Vote: umbrage
Goddamnit I don't care about my gut
this is not ok

The reference to his gut is from a previous post in which he says his brain thinks you are scum, but his gut doesn't agree. Meaning he still felt you were town even if the evidence was stacking against. It's about the same thing as he had with Liar. Still, no OMGUS from chess here. Misrepresentation by Umbrage? Yes.

It doesn't matter what your thought process was, the post clearly suggested that one of us was scum.

Not one of you, just you. Now you're misrepresenting me.

You admit that if you didn't already see me as scummy you wouldn't have picked up on that. That is flawed and biased logic.

Again, not what is going on. Your post:

OK, we're getting to the end of page 5 now, so I guess it's time for me to post reads. I think chesskid3 and Nexus are scummy. The rest could go either way, I have gut reads on them, but nothing solid so I'll let it pass for now.

chesskid3: Comes up with a mass name claim idea out of the blue, and can't follow up with good reasoning for it. Lashes out at players who question him. His reads are determined by who agrees with him.

Nexus: Has contributed nothing useful thus far. Attempted to shoot down the MC idea quickly. Doesn't like 'distractions'. Votes for AV when he meant to vote for me. The impression I get is of someone trying to control the game without getting too involved. By saying 'that's distracting, stop it' and little else, he can easily pass for town without sticking his neck out too far.

I still like my vote on chesskid3. We need more people in here. IS, Jedo, smargaret, this means you. Get back in here and post.

More examples of your misrepresenting people in order to make them look like scum. That seems scummy to me. That's what the addendum was about. It's kind of like I already have enough evidence to demonstrate your scumminess, but in case I needed more, this is another example. You might call it "piling on" or "running up the score" depending on which you like, but not "flawed and biased logic."

[Jedo the Jedi]

Those Umbrage rebuttals sure take a lot out of me. I'll try to address some other things I have seen recently.

[Umbrage]

Actually that's not what my argument boils down to at all. I did not say that you being composed makes you scum, because that's a daft line to take. There is also no explicit thing which is scummy, because unless you made a mistake there wouldn't be given that a scum player would be very careful not to give the game away. It's your overall play which has led me to feel that you are scum, I think Jedo did a good job and made good points covering what I had seen myself and to my mind you did not give a response which sways my opinion. Again this is something you've done a lot, you have (maybe deliberately) tried to misdirect the argument into something you could argue against and rubbish. I'm happy to go and ISO through and pick out points when you've done that to support what I've said, that will take some time but since there's still 10 days until the end of the day phase there is plenty of just that.

So if it's my overall play, then isn't that more of a gut read? I can't defend myself from that, and I don't think it's a good basis for a vote. If there are things you feel I've misrepresented, please show them.

Long post on Shadow incoming...

[bristep123]

@Umbrage You wanted me to post my workings, here they are.

Ok, viewtopic.php?p=2714631#p2714631. You took Nexus's reply to CK3 RE: the massclaim but didn't post the whole quote. You posted the first line to support your argument (That it looked scummy) but left out the second (which gave a rational reason why he said no, namely that the mod has a history of not using names/flavour.). Given that the post was only 2 lines, it's not like you were trimming to make the post shorter.

viewtopic.php?p=2714811#p2714811. AV said you wanted to discuss the MC, but then never did. You said that you'd done nothing but talk about the MC since page 2. Not quite correct, because yes you did nothing but talk about the MC, it was all back and forth picking apart CK3's argument while still maintaining that you wanted it. You didn't offer any insight into the benefits, or help in anyway to get it started. You backed the MC, but then spent your time discrediting CK3.

Same post. You inferred that AV thought Nexus and Shadow were town because he thought you were scummy and didn't appreciate you trying to push him towards other people while calling his vote for you "stupid". This is a big jump in logic and really wasn't picked up on at the time.

viewtopic.php?p=2714859#p2714859. You actually give posts to support your claim that you discussed the merits of the massclaim, and AV did acknowledge this afterwards. As far as I can see those posts do is validate that all you did was respond to CK3's reasoning without offering any of your own.

Same Post. AV said that you seemed hyperdefensive, but that now since he picked up and pursued it you stop defending and start deflecting. Your response is to make out that he's accusing you of doing both these things at the same time, which was not the case.

viewtopic.php?p=2715325#p2715325. After all the talk of OMGUS, you pull one out and vote for Jedo right after he votes for you, highlighting a few passages from his reasoning to indicate his scumminess without actually giving any reasoning for it until pushed for it later, and when it comes it is weak.

viewtopic.php?p=2715988#p2715988 You were resolute that CK3 OMGUS'd you, but now you relent and say that is was an 'indirect OMGUS'

viewtopic.php?p=2718614#p2718614. You called for a policy lynch on IS without giving a reason. When prompted to you gave a reason, but IMO you didn't speak to him directly and make him aware that you were not happy with his language instead you went straight for the policy lynch call. At the bottom of the post which you gave the reason you then told him not to use the word retard, by which time the opportunity for mediation was lost. As others have pointed out policy lynches are a great scum tool for getting rid of town.

viewtopic.php?p=2719377#p2719377. Quoting Jedo and responding to him, you took out his actual words and used "Blah blah blah massclaim, blah blah blah shiftiness." That's not even acknowledging the post before refuting it, that's trying to dismiss it out of hand. You then said that it was the same as AV's argument and that you'd already dealt with it. THAT is scummy right there.

Same post. Jedo quite clearly points out that you (again maybe delibrately) misinterpreted Doom's statement about possible fakeclaims. You sidestepped it and said "Oh but it was *implied*" (Paraphrasing), and then you told us exactly what he meant to say (but didn't).

Same post again. When Jedo asked why you hopped from Nexus to Chesskid, as doing so takes pressure off Nexus (and later off Chesskid when you moved off of him for a while). You again didn't respond to the point and just said that Vote changes happen, and that you still thought Nexus looked scummy, no acknowledgement of Jedo's main point there.

Same point again. You were asked why you brushed away CK3 when he pointed out your error. You said that you made and admitted your mistake, and that we shouldn't expect anything else. However when AV did the same (Realised he had misread your post, admitted it) you immediately turned on him. It's double standards like that which make me think you're worth a wagon.

viewtopic.php?p=2720291#p2720291. You demand Jedo show evidence of where you misquoted AV. This is despite you already brushing off his comments. Jedo then showed you an example of your response towards AV being unsatisfactory and you didn't acknowledge it at all, just told him to show him proof of misquotation.

Same post. Jedo called you out for being evasive, and you respond BY EVADING! "You saying I misrepresented something is not proof of me misrepresenting something. I don't even know what it is I'm supposed to have misrepresented."

Same post. You said that Jedo stated that either you or CK3 were scum. He replied and said that wasn't the case. He believed YOU were scum, and CK3 was town. You responded unblinkingly saying "Well that still means you thought that one of us was scum" which is a complete deviation of the original point. (You said he thought it could be either of you, he said that he was sure it was you).

Same post. Saying that Jedo only picked up on a later point because he suspected you already, and therefore biased and flawed is ridiculous. You make a judgement based on the available evidence. Something may not seem scummy on it's own, but when it's said by someone already suspected then of course it might stand out where it didn't before. Jedo of course said as much, and you just dismissed it and said that he just roundabout admitted to using flawed and biased logic.

As I said before, I think you are the best option at this point for the lynch.

[bristep123]

I said I was happy to go through and show my evidence but that it would take time, you couldn't wait a couple of hours, you had to come back in again to say "If there are things you feel I've misrepresented, please show them." in, so that if I didn't come back you could say that you invited the evidence but it just never came. Seems that Jedo was doing the same as me as well.

[chesskid3]

oh cool nexus's slot is town too.
no scum does thatttttttttttttt.

More Smargret votes
even if you think Umbrage is scum
who is the one person who is semi-involved in all this he has NOT gone after?
SMARGRET
so
if you think umbrage is scum smargret is a top scumbuddy pick
and I don't think umbrage is scum but I still think Smargret is
so
wagon ho