Mini 1108 - Mutiny on the High Seas - Game Over

[Shadow1psc]

Yeah, you're either intentionally being dense to obscure the facts. I said, why would

scum

gambit a claim early to rolefish based on a flavor name which has nothing to do with the role. I'm not scum.

[chesskid3]

what makes you think flavour name has nothing to do with role?

[Shadow1psc]

Bristep knows nothing about me, my name is Wes fwiw.

[Shadow1psc]

what makes you think flavour name has nothing to do with role?

Previous discussion on Prana meta, coupled with something else.

[Jedo the Jedi]

There is no way that I'm supporting a Shadow lynch on the flimsy basis of claiming early. I'll wait until he actually does something scummy, TYVM.

I'm not sure who is supporting it on that basis, but a fair number of us have shown other reasons why we think he is scummy. Did you miss those, or do you not think them valid?

[AurorusVox]

Smargaret's latest post looks bad, potentially shadow's buddy misrepping the wagon against him. Actually I think IS said they were both scum earlier too.

Chess, why are you so sure he's town? Didn't you vote him earlier?
Also Britstep's been calling IS Insane Strangler for a while now, does that make them buddies too? So what, Britstep-Smargaret-IS scumteam based SOLELY on mistaken names? Some kind of cutesy scum name games going on? =_="

[bristep123]

I don't know why I wrote chris, not sure what was on my mind at the time. It was however just a mistake. I'm on my phone just now will be on later sorry for posting and dashing.

Also yeah I noticed i was getting IS's name wrong too. That was a misread. I do refer to him as IS most ofthe time.

[Shadow1psc]

So let me ask a question to everyone on my wagon. What do you do when I flip town?

[Liar]

Firstly, as the only person who hasn't voted yet, I will place a vote on AurorusVox.

Vote: AurorusVox

he is the last person I looked at, and I believe he has been forcing analysis.
I'll look into Shadow1psc now.

[smargaret]

The last several votes on Shadow have been a result of his nameclaim, or at least that's how the votes have been justified. I think his reaction to being at L-1 is frustrated townie, not necessarily pro-town but not scummy either, and that balances out the other issues.

EBWOP: I just have a slight townread on Shadow and don't get why the wagon grew so quickly. And trying to link players without a single flip to go on is bad play.

EBWOP again: I'm not implying anything about bristep/shadow's alignment based on the "Chris" thing, just pointing out an inconsistency in how chess applies his logic. Again.

[Shadow1psc]

No one hammer me; I want explanations from everyone about what they will do come my town flip, then if you all still want my head, I'll hammer myself.

[Internet Stranger]

There is no tunneling when Shadow is the main topic of discussion. If I was off on some tangent on Joanbud lurking (much the way Margaret is doing, THATS tunneling.

[Shadow1psc]

IS I wasn't the main topic of discussion for quite a few pages, and you voted me (randomly) to start with.

[Jedo the Jedi]

As if you couldn't already tell. I will go back to voting Umbrage, presumably if you flip town or scum. I will have to see what night info we receive.

[Internet Stranger]

Good idea Shadow, lets all set up a kill-plan for your partner after youre lynched.

[Shadow1psc]

Jedo - my town flip doesn't tell you anything about the other people on my wagon? Umbrage is the easy target (as am I right now). That's not to say I don't think Umbrage deserves a lynch, I'm just saying, my town flip tells you

something

about the other people on my list.

[Shadow1psc]

IS - you look terrible, I'm ok with that and I didn't expect an answer out of you anyway.

[Internet Stranger]

IS I wasn't the main topic of discussion for quite a few pages, and you voted me (randomly) to start with.

mwahaha, then you wonder why I want to vote for you. We are discussing tunneling, not your initial vote. Again, all you do is spin spin spin and misdirect.
(Scum do what Shadow is doing. Shadow is scum. I say we lynch Shadow)

[Jedo the Jedi]

Jedo - my town flip doesn't tell you anything about the other people on my wagon? Umbrage is the easy target (as am I right now). That's not to say I don't think Umbrage deserves a lynch, I'm just saying, my town flip tells you

something

about the other people on my list.

It probably could, but if I am already prepared to move on Umbrage because I think he is scum, why would I need to start looking for others? Also, I don't see why either of you is the "easy" target. It definitely took a lot to get any solid attention on Umbrage, and similar could be said of you.

[Liar]

Shadow hasn't been that active in this game. Most of his posts are spam, not much real substantial posts outside of his involvement with his lynch and CK.
I believe this post describes his activity best this game

@Internet Stranger I just looked through Shadow's posts, can you point out the ad hominem remarks made towards you because I can't see them. He is throwing WIFOM around and not backing it up by explaining it, but again with other points I've made it doesn't make it less valid. I do however think that WIFOM is a bad tact to take, because everything can be bottled down to WIFOM if you really want to. I think Shadow is one to watch and perhaps needs some questioning He hasn't made any real in depth contributions yet, so yes he could just be lurking in the middle of the pack. With that said, I think that there are other more valid lynches to pursue at this point.

I'm not lurking, I'm just having trouble finding much to say. I kept throwing "WIFOM" at CK's questions because they (in particular) were terrible, and as someone else pointed out right away, inconsequential and unhelpful (because of WIFOM). I was just tired of playing the back and forth with him because he seems to have enough trouble already after having read the back and forth with him and Umbrage.

Having said that though, I reply when someone says something to/about me, and I post my own thoughts where I think they're warrented on a situation. Between CK, IS and a replace, I'm just waiting for this game to really begin, especially if IS is also going to be replaced for whatever offense he gave. If you'd like to question me about anything, I'll certainly answer though. I feel like with 5 days in (weekend aside, it's now Tuesday) we should have had more content from a couple other people. Lemme figure out who they are xD

The Claim at 438 is intresting. I have no idea why he would do this. He knows that Role and Alignment are probably different. He seems to be using this as a last ditch defense

Yeah, you're either intentionally being dense to obscure the facts. I said, why would

scum

gambit a claim early to rolefish based on a flavor name which has nothing to do with the role. I'm not scum.

However, most last ditch pull all stop moves are not necessarily scummy. Voting for someone solely because of this one action is suspect.

At the same time Shadow1psc has really only made two posts that were not spam or defense of himself (accusing Umbrage (#419), and then IS (#420)), neither of which he committed to something substantial.

Looking at others analysis: AurorusVox

Shadow

I'm pretty sure you're stretching in order to legitimise your PL vote. You've decided to find Chess scummy and so are purposefully going out of your way to paint everything in that way. Shouting his arguments down by saying WIFOM when everything anyone says can be WIFOM doesn't sit well.

Mine started as a policy vote, but I think he's deliberately playing dumb. That whole mass claim idea debacle was also pretty scummy. It could probably still be classified as a policy vote, I'm just looking for something else scummy to happen, I don't expect a speed policy lynch.

This just proves it. I know you mean that "something else" can be from anyone, but I think you've basically restricted yourself to finding Chess scummy. Which I'm not sure how you can do with any certainty.

Interesting point. I do agree that Shadow has restricted himself to Chess.

Using meta as defense is scummy.

You realize scum can hide behind town tells, and that it's actually scummy to say "Hey, only town does this, I'm doing it, I must be town!"

I'm of the belief that 'tells' follow along the lines of metagaming, and I'd much rather analyse the actions of someone in context to the game their currently playing, and the questions asked/answered therein.

You can't say scum have meta-knowledge of tells (i.e. they purposefully use towntells) without accepting that they'd also be able to avoid dropping scumtells. Do you make a distinction between scummy/scumtells, and townie/towntells? I think your spinning things in a scummy light to legitimise your vote, so that you can say "Oh, yeah, not the easy target, actually I think he's scum."

Disagree. Simple onepost scumtells shouldn't be used. Rather I support analysis.

CK is not new, he's playing the VI card, and I don't think you can play that many games and still be that dense.

IS has already shown how this isn't the case. How on earth can you claim to be able to distinguish between legitimate VI behaviour and fabricated VI behaviour? This is the sort of stretching behaviour I'm talking about. Overall I don't like it.

Agreed that CK probably could be legitimate VI. But disagree about this meaning Shadow is scum. Shadow is clearly frustrated about CK and he is not alone here. His method of approach is simply to push for a lynch

(More)

[Liar]

0) Shadow is minimally posting and just hanging around, but not lurking.
1) Shadow suddenly turned into super poster #1 after he got called out.
1a) Uses a cheap excuse to rationalize it (was bored of game when he clearly wasnt)
1b) Chesskid started toning it down
2) Shadow goes after Chesskid anyways.

Agreed, however Shadow has made an effort to reform his activity and focus

2a) Margaret joins in after Chesskid

Interesting, but unlikely that Shadow and Margaret are both scum

3) Weak attempts to confuse the rest of the town with mafiascum technobabble
3a) Says he was just using it because Chess is just a VI anyways
3b) Policy lynches on VI's are scummy; especially on day 1.

Disagree. Shadow is as guilty (if not less) of others at using terminology. I disagree with Policy lynches as a scumtell.

4) Continues to ask for reasoning over and over again. Thats the exhaustion defense, trying to put pressure on the accuser to keep coming up with more and more. As if the initial reasoning falls off and disappears.

Interesting point. Has this done before (any examples off the top of your head?).

Conclusion

I can see why others want to lynch Shadow.
However there is enough evidence against him to warrant a hammer, or even the threat of a hammer. Besides the Exhaustion Defense, the only analysis I am considering is Activity based arguments. However Shadow may simply not have the time

[Shadow1psc]

Are you saying my posting was not adequate in the periods with which I said I would be (IE, not weekend)? I'm confused.

[AurorusVox]

Disagree. Simple onepost scumtells shouldn't be used. Rather I support analysis.

Actually, thanks for reminding me that Shadow never responded to my question about tells/ies. I'm not saying use tells; I'm saying Shadow hasn't been consistent in his application of them. He's trying to say that scum can purposefully drop towntells, without acknowledging that such meta-knowledge would allow them to avoid dropping scumtells. There IS a difference between scummy and scumtells, but his post "metadefence is scummy" suggests he doesn't think that way. By this I mean that saying point-blank "X-action is scummy" is equivalent to saying it is a scumtell. He therefore accused Chess of purposefully dropping towntells; and accused him of dropping a scumtell. That's inconsistent logic.

CK is not new, he's playing the VI card, and I don't think you can play that many games and still be that dense.

IS has already shown how this isn't the case. How on earth can you claim to be able to distinguish between legitimate VI behaviour and fabricated VI behaviour? This is the sort of stretching behaviour I'm talking about. Overall I don't like it.

Agreed that CK probably could be legitimate VI. But disagree about this meaning Shadow is scum. Shadow is clearly frustrated about CK and he is not alone here. His method of approach is simply to push for a lynch

His lynchpush is misrepresenting Chess as faking his VI-ness. If he was just frustrated he'd say he wanted to lynch Chess for being a VI. As it stands, he's saying "Oh no Chess is faking it because he's scum!" - it fits with my stretching to make his PL seem as though its going after scum.

[Shadow1psc]

I responded AV, lemme find it.

[Shadow1psc]

Also, I don't know how to be more clear; I started in on CK as VI, policy voted, then went back and followed through to find scummy action to both a) prove that he was anti town and worth the PL even if he was town, and b) hopefully even hit real scum behavior because it'd be even better if he were scum. I said that too btw.