Consulmaker II: the Pyrrhic War - Game over.

[Nathanael]

@Nathanael:

Do you still find SensFan as the most scummy person in the game?

yes. but Lowell in my top 3 scumreads too, so I am not at all opposed to lynching him

[ribwich]

I'll probably be the one killed this night, so I should get this out there. If Lowell flips scum, my next top scumread would be Spyrex. If Lowell flips town or SK, it's Parama and Feysal.

Spyrex: Expresses much uncomfortableness with the execution of Jack and Lowell. Jack's execution alone isn't very much though since he still went through with the execution, so that's why I'm only really suspicious of him if Lowell happens to also flip scum.

Parama: Many times talked about Jack as if he was obvtown with lousy reasons, yet was one of the people acting pissed off when I vetoed Jack's execution. (Yeah, porochaz did the same thing, but many of us were surprised when we found out he was town, and I think he did that on purpose specifically because he was the bodyguard) Also tunnels heavily on Nath in day one without any explanation, and then when pressured enough to present a case on him gives one that was lackluster for confident he acted about it.

Feysal: Most of what I was going to say about him was already mentioned by Shanba, but there's two other things I would bring up. First is in regards to yesterday's execution of Jack. Spy was talking about his uneasiness with it as more of a no longer being 100% sure type of thing, but it looked like Feysal was seeing that as a chance to get Jack to actually survive this game. The quote in particular that bothered me was this one:

What I mean is, if dram had put in an execution on reck, and it got vetoed without us seeing that reck actually was scum, how was dram going to look? He was presented with one of the easiest lynch choices you can get, and he would be ignoring it to continue his bus. The entire reason why I picked dram as a consul was to see if he would choose reck over Jack, and I think he knew that.

Obviously it would've looked like dramonic was tunneling, and given how much flak you got for vetoing Jack, it probably would've made him look suspicious. However, it may have been beneficial in the long run. It is likely that either dramonic or reckoner would've been executed eventually, and the survivor would've gained the reward for the bus then. As a bonus, if the one executed was reckoner, whoever had vetoed his execution would look suspect because of it. Doing this would be risky of course, more so than what dramonic did, but I may have done it in his position anyway.

What this whole thing started from was my response to Scotmany in #1014. What I meant there was that dramonic could not really have been afraid of his execution of reckoner being vetoed, like Scotmany suggested. In retrospect, it should be clear that dramonic saying so was an excuse because he did not want to bus reckoner yet. It still tells me little about Jack, since dramonic may have well decided that Jack was a lost cause, if they were scum together.

Having thought it over, I don't see why Jack could not be scum with dramonic and reckoner. Whether he is and they gave up on him, or he is not, the fact that dramonic had no hesitation executing him is a null tell. There was that odd episode with reckoner suddenly believing Jack and ribwich were both town, and changing his mind just as suddenly, and I can't say why reckoner would do this, though the scum may have been simply late with their planning since they did not expect to get a consul position. The way dramonic made an excuse not to execute reckoner says to me that it was not a planned bus, and ribwich vetoing Jack's execution really screwed their plan. And if it was not a planned bus, then the fight between dramonic and reckoner was meant as distancing, but they overdid it and it blew in their faces. I've said before that it was odd how dramonic and reckoner were setting up to bus each other, and I would not do this if one of my teammates was about to be exposed. I've changed my mind, I don't think they were preparing to bus at all, it was simply distancing gone too far.

For Jack's part, while I have no experience with him, there are some odd things I noticed in his ISO. Like when he proposed reckoner as the deadlock lynch on the first day, out of the blue. And of course, he kept up his Consulmaker claim longer than I'm comfortable with.

This post start off with him still arguing for why the double bus was unlikely, but in the end he just kind of gives up and admits that Jack could still be scum. To me this looks like someone that was trying to defend their scumbuddy, but then backs off when he sees it isn't working.

The second thing is a little harder to describe, because there aren't specific posts that back it up, but I've been getting this overall feeling that he's been trying exceptionally hard to get on my good side so that I'll make him consul. Town players would want to be consul too of course, but nobody else is giving me this feeling in the way that he is.

[Feysal]

Feysal: Most of what I was going to say about him was already mentioned by Shanba, but there's two other things I would bring up. First is in regards to yesterday's execution of Jack. Spy was talking about his uneasiness with it as more of a no longer being 100% sure type of thing, but it looked like Feysal was seeing that as a chance to get Jack to actually survive this game.

Say

what?

When was I ever trying to get Jack to survive this game? Before you vetoed his execution, I had consistently believed he was lying and wanted him dead for it. Nathanael's and SpyreX's doubts about the double bus gave me pause, so I thought over what dramonic did and was trying to do, and reached the conclusion that if Jack was scum, dramonic should have given up on him and he would have executed him.

This post start off with him still arguing for why the double bus was unlikely, but in the end he just kind of gives up and admits that Jack could still be scum. To me this looks like someone that was trying to defend their scumbuddy, but then backs off when he sees it isn't working.

Reading comprehension failure. I was describing my thoughts about Jack, and how I arrived to the conclusion that the double bus was null. What you have in that post is my thought process, what went on in my mind to convince me that Jack had to die. With the double bus argument out of the way, all that remained was that Jack had lied, and he had to go. If I had been trying to defend him, why would I have changed my mind mid-post?

I'll probably be the one killed this night, so I should get this out there. If Lowell flips scum, my next top scumread would be Spyrex. If Lowell flips town or SK, it's Parama and Feysal.

This worries me even more than your stance on me. What does Lowell's flip have to do with anyone else being scum? I've said my read on him is null. Null read means he is more likely town than not. Has anyone else said anything different?

[ribwich]

This worries me even more than your stance on me. What does Lowell's flip have to do with anyone else being scum? I've said my read on him is null. Null read means he is more likely town than not. Has anyone else said anything different?

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Lowell flipping town doesn't make me more suspicious of you. Lowell flipping scum makes me more suspicious of Spyrex. It just so happens that you and Parama would be at the top of my list if he's town simply because my read on Spyrex depends on Lowell being scum.

[Lowell]

Still not giving up on getting a reread in. As soon as I get through my inbox at work.

For now the scum are among Sens, shanba, and nat. Feel free to give me accolades when I'm right and proven amazing.

[SensFan]

You have been executed.

[Feysal]

I think you're looking at it the wrong way. Lowell flipping town doesn't make me more suspicious of you. Lowell flipping scum makes me more suspicious of Spyrex. It just so happens that you and Parama would be at the top of my list if he's town simply because my read on Spyrex depends on Lowell being scum.

You missed my point. What worries me is the idea that Lowell indeed flips town, which is more likely than not, and that mislynch is then followed by more. I know I am town, and I've begun to think Parama may be too.

Why is your read on SpyreX dependent on Lowell?

[Parama]

You have been executed.

I didn't know you can post from ~24 hours into the future!

[Lowell]

From page 32, start of a new day.

775- reck, dram scum die. inhim, bodyguard, dies
779- scot doesn't want rib to be tribune [why?]
781- nat defends rib for sparing jack, also jack
791- parama disagrees, sides with scot
794- rib defends his actions as tribune [+]
802- feysal attacks nat, sens [+, good points]
816- poro makes no sense
818- magua mentions poro's "win condition" as though he knows [--]
865- fonz enters [+, pretty good]
866- magua defends jack [-, looks a little flustered]
889- nat defends jack as well
907- primate re-enters, wavers on jack
930- sens continues fonz asskissing [-]
940s- discussion about lynching jack continues, same battle lines
982- rib and fonz tribunes
991- sens hopes fonz will like him, asks him to prom [-]
1002- nat continues defense of jack
1010- magua defends jack
1016- scot explains why jack may be scum w/ reck/dram [+, well said]
1024- fonz fleshes out the meta-lurker-lowell case
1047- fonz says lowell is scum b/c people haven't attacked him [-, play better!]
1048- sens gives bj to fonz
1068- spyrez executes jack
1072- fonz and rib approve
1074- feysal makes sens-scum case [+]
1080- magua points out sens' bitterness about consul mechanics [+++]
1097- primate approves lynch
1101- jack, godfather, is dead
1102- poro, bodyguard, dies, fonz and shanba are tribunes
1151- sens strawman's lowell [-, lowell knows the rules. lowell knows all]
1159- feysal points out jack/lowell connection in jack's posts [not my fault I'm popular!]

Throwing this post out before I leave work, just in case I end up dead for some reason.

The final scum are:

sensfan

- The sycophantic treatment of fonz is tedious... and jarring. I've played with sens quite a bit, and I don't remember him ever giving anyone the star power he's awarding fonz. I've highlighted a few of the ones that caught my eye, but missed just as many. Not sure why magua turned his back on this case almost immediately after 1080, though I have a theory.

magua

- Clearly scum like bussing this game. In fact, sometimes scum are almost TOO good at sniffing out scumslips, and I think that's what happened here when 1080 refers all the way back to post 48. Of course, there's a slip of his own as well. Post 818 casually references poro's win condition in a post berating him. magua doesn't consider poro scum, he just says he's playing against his wincon. Weird. Later, in 866, he becomes a bit flustered in his defense of jack. Like he can feel the wheels coming off, at least a little.

Maybe

spy

also. Less confident on my read on him, but I'm not seeing what others are that makes them think he's town. His style seems to grow more aggressive when he's feeling confident... which he clearly is. I just have this sense he's envisioning himself as the decimated scum-team's savior.

Some town players:

scotmany

. 1016 turned us in the right direction when attention might have drifted away from jack. kudos for that. Also I respect the vigor with which he defended his inane position on rib-trib.

feysal

. All his posts are on the money, with only a few exceptions. Even when he's wrong (re: lowell), he shows independent thought. So kudos.

ribwich

. Still don't see how he could be scum given his actions as tribune.

Everyone else I'm on the fence.

Nat

on the one hand deserves credit for jumping out on a limp about jack (even though he was wrong), but I can't quite fully shake the idea that he was doing it just to PROVE HOW OUT ON A LIMB HE COULD GO OMG TOWN!

fonz

' picture makes me want to punch him in the face. However, he's brought new energy to the game and given sensfan someone to fawn over, both of which are fun.

para

and

primate

, no idea. Anyone else I'm forgetting, your play is equally forgettable.

Again, apologies all for my lack of participation of late. Feel free to use this bit of LOWELLMAZING to cruise to an easy victory.

[Lowell]

And yes I realized my last two posts don't match... that's what happens when you don't read the thread.

[ribwich]

ribwich. Still don't see how he could be scum given his actions as tribune.

And this is the line that shows you've still been paying so little attention and makes the entire post useless even if you are town.

[SpyreX]

You missed my point. What worries me is the idea that Lowell indeed flips town, which is more likely than not, and that mislynch is then followed by more. I know I am town, and I've begun to think Parama may be too.

This is the first thing you've said that gives me pause and I don't like it in the twilight hours.

[The Fonz]

1047- fonz says lowell is scum b/c people haven't attacked him [-, play better!]

Lowell. You made the argument that when you are town, everyone acts like they have to suspect you, and scum in particular try to get you lynched. This simply hadn't happened. You were allowed to get away with lurking with remarkably little suspicion thrown on you. Please explain what is wrong with this analysis.

[Lowell]

Um, well, for one, a confirmed scum DID SPEND THE ENTIRE DAY OF HIS DEATH ATTACKING ME. So not clear what you're talking about here.

[Magua]

magua- Clearly scum like bussing this game.

Um, well, for one, a confirmed scum DID SPEND THE ENTIRE DAY OF HIS DEATH ATTACKING ME.

[Lowell]

Lowell: scum sometimes like bussing
Fonz: I'm KILLING YOU BECAUSE SCUM DIDN'T ATTACK YOU.
Lowell: uh, okay, well in that case, jack attacked me.
Magua: CONTRADICTION!!!

Am I right? More or less?

[Lowell]

Anyway, kill sens and we're fine. Still an easy win, don't overthink it.

[SensFan]

Um, well, for one, a confirmed scum DID SPEND THE ENTIRE DAY OF HIS DEATH ATTACKING ME. So not clear what you're talking about here.

First of all, Jack almost never posted once we put his ass on the block. Secondly, by the time he started making some REALLY weak 'attacks' on you, Fonz had already replaced in and pointed out that everyone was basically letting you float on through, so that's not at all a defense against the case that 'Lowell lurked like hell and no one called him on it'.

[Lowell]

There's no reason to argue this point. Either jack "ignored" me, proving I'm scum, or he "bussed" me, proving I'm scum. It's over. If the execution goes through, no worries.

You're next either way.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Lowell, Roman Senator, has been Executed by your Consul The Fonz.

It is now Night 4. Night 4 ends at Sunday 11:20 GMT.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Your beloved former Consul, Primate, has sadly lost his head during the night.

Tribunal elections end next Saturday at 15:17 GMT. Please note that since we are down to 10, there will only be one Tribune and the Day lasts 2 weeks instead of 3.

[SensFan]

Vote: Fonz

[Parama]

Vote: Fonz

[SensFan]

Alright, so since we're only going to have a week after the Tribunal elections, let's get down to business and start figuring shit out now. I think it's probably fairly obvious that Nathanael is one of my top suspects at this point, so Magua, what're your thoughts about him? Is there anyone (other than rib, obviously) that you're completely against seeing executed, and/or anyone that you think should be executed instead of Nathan?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

P.S. Your Consuls are Magua and SensFan.