Mafia 1114: Jim's Mafia - Game OVER!!!!

[RobCapone]

Attacking bad play or bad arguments is not the same as defending the player who the attacks are directed towards. This appears to be what DavidParker did. He came to the game to see ridiculous attacks on me, and pointed out why they were silly.

and fyi this is just what I did, I attacked YOUR scummy play but you accuse me of being his partner

so why can david get away with it and not be linked to you as partners but when I do it I am automatically linked to Ice

because it is the exact same thing, if anything what I did was a better example than what DP did.

[Javert]

Bonjour, RobCapone.

My post clearly says "

here is how it reads to me,

" and the quote function itself says "

abridged

": as in, this isn't the actual quote, but this is what I see to be the

intention

of the post. Anybody who has paid the slightest attention to the game would know (as you clearly were able to see) that my abridged quote is not what ICEninja actually posted - so saying I "implied Ice said it" is a rather ridiculous accusation. My post merely highlights in a sarcastic manner what players should be reading

in to

ICEninja's post.

So: If you agree with my points on ICEninja, why aren't you voting for ICEninja?

[ICEninja]

You overemphasize how good discussion is for Town, and it looks completely contrived

A quick scan through my games shows that I'm no fan of the RVS. I didn't overemphasize anything, I just personally want discussion to get serious quickly. You're interpreting this as something scummy when it is not.

You basically say you were "pretending" to look scummy

You made this up. I never did this. I said, for the 6th or so time that I exaggerated the best case I could make. I didn't do anything scummy.

You claim to be "disgusted" with the mention of policy lynching

I was. It was an awful suggestion, and as I've said enough times, policy lynching you based on what you had done would have hurt town and helped scum. How is it scummy for me to be disgusted with the suggestion?

Then you immediately shift focus to four players for not posting enough by Page 2 of the game.

Oh so it's scummy to call lurkers to post in the game? Shall we read your first post? Of course I'm going to call attention to people who aren't me. People who aren't me weren't posting. We, as you pointed out, have short deadlines this game so we need people posting. Why are you calling something that you've done scummy?

Sure you can go ahead and think that my tone is fake and that I'm lying, but you don't know me. You're calling me scum for just being me. That whole vote and post 47 is pretty much exactly what I would have said even if I was scum, which is why this is so frustrating.

[Mute]

Ya know Javert, I've read that post by ICE several times and until you posted that I still wasn't able to get that from it. I'll chalk it up to difference in personalities and such, but even with all that's been brought up I still feel ICE to be town.

[Javert]

... and now we have ICEninja claiming there were "lurkers" within the first real-time day of the game. Cookies for all if we manage to lynch him before page 8.

[Mute]

I remember reading somewhere in the mafia discussion forum that only scum will be worried about how they appear, and as such will try to make themselves look as townie as possible. Towns-folk will many times over make statements that will appear scummy, and scum must avoid appearing as scum/having scum-slips in their posts.

It was a long and rather philosophical post I feel. All I got outta that is if someone's trying too hard to appear town, they're scum; if someone is playing suspiciously and appears scummy, most of the time they're town; if a person uses scum-slips frequently, they're either bad players or scum.
Just tossing this out there, I felt it should be said. *shrug*


---

I actually don't have time, but for the sake of this game I am answering Mute. Tomorrow I will post my opinion of other things.

As well, I would like to ask you that when you mention me,

address me and not talk around me

, please.
Yes, you mention things but don't exactly ask

why

I did them, instead you're posting things to say to everyone else. When you direct a question to me I will respond to you.

I got it, I got it. We both have different standards about it, it is fine with me.

Thank you for understanding. It's a personal thing, not something in this game. I hate when people are talking about me when I'm around and not addressing me.

As for your evidence against me:
1. You call me out for my vote on Javert, which I should remind you has been dropped by now.
2. You say that I am "subtly trying to get someone lynched" by bringing up policy lynching inappropriately, which is not the case anymore.
3. I voted for him because I felt he was scummy in his posting in the beginning of the game.
4. These are all the points I see you raise against me. If I missed anything, let me know.

1. The vote may be dropped, the case certainly isn't. You voted for him for changing reasons. The vote was a bandwagon-vote, with no clear reason. No good.
2. Well, you

were

. That is even worse than still are. You changed your mind about it as soon as you are called scummy for mentioning a policy lynch. That seems to me you want to lose the attention.
3. Well, no need to quote ICE, since you can find yourself what is bad about this.
That is all, really. I found it odd you didn't respond to my case as soon as I posted it, but I drop that. (read above)

See, this is what I mean Conspiracy. This is asking a question to me.
Why bring you up? It ties into answering Magnus.

I got it again. No need to get bitter about it.
I also found your post extremely weird with all of the you's in it. We are in a game of 13 players, and you address your "case" to me...

You, Conspiracy, I feel are scum. You have only 3 posts in this game, of which your second one is highly scum-opportunistic I feel.
You jumped on the then easiest wagon (me), and instead of giving your case to me as well as against me,

Wait what? This is bogus.
a) You were definitely not the easiest "wagon" back then, that was Javert. He had votes for a reason people believed in back then.
b) You didn't even have a wagon on you, since RVS votes obviously do not count to form a wagon.

Sorry, I am known to needlessly repeat words in long posts/texts.

Also I must have gotten your ISO's mixed up. See, in your first post you voted for me, then jumped to Jabert. I should mention that you voted for me AFTER I had dropped my vote on Javert.

you simply spoke out in much the same way ICE has but gave me no room to defend myself with. I feel this to be a scum tactic to push for a lynch. If you'd like I thought of another real-world example, where you are a lawyer/attorney, and I am the person being questioned. Picture it as a scene from a crime show. You are giving your case and personal opinion on the matter, pressing for why everyone should feel that I am scum. You do not ask me a thing to defend myself. You simply say your piece, then go about your day. That leaves me sitting at the bench with a dumb and confused look on my face which leads to nothing but "oh he must be scum (or for the sake of this example, guilty)" as a reaction to the jury.

c) Mentioning again the "no possibility to answer"thingie? That one is not a scumtell, that is a difference of playing styles.
I see it more as a game of 13 players who I have to show you are scum. You can defend if you want (You should actually) but the main audience is the group of players. Just using the word "you" makes it only addressing to one person and makes it hardly a case.

I don't know what to take of ICE. I feel he's been grasping at straws and jumping on the easiest wagon as well. He used my random voting in his case for me that I've seen. But, why is he solely focusing on me?
These are all the votes I feel from page 1 to be the entire list of RVS votes.

Ok, the ICE case isn't good enough, you say. However you said you thought me to be scum. That means you want to lynch me what means you should vote me. Not voting for someone you say is scum is trying to keep the attention away from it. Count that as another point on the Mute case.

The fact that no one else but me seems to notice this is beyond frustrating.

Thanks...

Yeah, I feel you're scummy. You, for what I feel, are an active-lurker and only post when you see fit. However I'll acknowledge this as a null-tell as, frankly, I don't know your real-life situations so you could also not have that much an opportunity to post.
It's for that reason that I feel you're scummy, but not strongly enough to cast a vote on you for it.

[Prox]

unvote

.

Sorry. Day of thinking got me thinking.

It seems as if I might be getting caught up into a fallacy (Too Town).

Besides, I'm sure that both town AND scum can try too hard to look like townies and fail thusly.

There has to be something more for me to be completely satisfied, and there's no need to rush.

I'd like to say more, but

[Mute]

unvote

.

Sorry. Day of thinking got me thinking.

It seems as if I might be getting caught up into a fallacy (Too Town).

Besides, I'm sure that both town AND scum can try too hard to look like townies and fail thusly.

There has to be something more for me to be completely satisfied, and there's no need to rush.

I'd like to say more, but

I know this is entirely out of the gameplay but I got a serious candlejack vibe from thi

[Prox]

Oh. Ice is only at L-3 now.

vote ICE

Ok, tomorrow s Saturday, meaning I'll have some daylight hours to spend on the internet, since my mom is a narcissist and my dad works. I will read this thread through and be able to take notes rather than remember things in my head.

Then I can base my opinions on more than tone, which, though I consider it a good start considering ICE's most phony post, isn't enough for a lymch. I assume there's more to this wagon than tone and word choice.

[RobCapone]

Oh. Ice is only at L-3 now.

vote ICE

Ok, tomorrow s Saturday, meaning I'll have some daylight hours to spend on the internet, since my mom is a narcissist and my dad works. I will read this thread through and be able to take notes rather than remember things in my head.

Then I can base my opinions on more than tone, which, though I consider it a good start considering ICE's most phony post, isn't enough for a lymch. I assume there's more to this wagon than tone and word choice.

so pops goes to work and your mom stares at a mirror all day?

[RobCapone]

Ya know Javert, I've read that post by ICE several times and until you posted that I still wasn't able to get that from it. I'll chalk it up to difference in personalities and such, but even with all that's been brought up I still feel ICE to be town.

+1

Except I'll move ice a few notches down and put him as null instead of town

I didn't interpret that way either but now seeing it from your perspective, it makes sense that is what he could have been saying.

Only reason why I'm not set on lynching him yet is because I have made comments people accused me of sounding scummy, which even I agree they did, and I was town

One game on another site the mod gave flavor that the weapon was a "blunt object" and later I said it was a brick. People lynched me cause they thought it was a slip and it was just a dumbass mistake on my part.

Besides that 1 post J, can you maybe condense your case on ice cause it's hard to decipher in these longer posts.

Thanks

[Javert]

A thought that came to me in the night:

HumblePoirot, can you point me to the quicklynches you have experienced that makes you "tired of quicklynches"?

[RobCapone]

@ mute - what is a candlejack?

[Edgerobin]

@ ice

Rob, you seem to have a lot of material to indicate you are at odds with David. You seem to disagree with him a lot, but you make good points. I am concerned, however, that a lot of your post was dedicated to disagreeing with him and not a lot of it was dedicated to analyzing his alignment. Do you feel that his actions were scummy? Do you feel like David is more likely to flip scum than other players right now?

I actually have a feeling that he could be scum and here is why.

I don't like the fact that he has defended Javert for his attempt at reaction fishing while completely negating the whole exercise. While I feel that yes Javert put the attention on himself, how can ANYONE think he was pro-town enough to be defended like DP was doing. The fact that he completely ruined the gambit to me means that he was doing 2 things.

1. defending Javert because DP thinks (or maybe knows) he is town
2. taking the attention off magnus

Which of DP's posts is this in reference to?

I don't want to rebut your DP case in advance of DP doing so - but I'll say now that I think points 1-2 of yours aren't scummy (from DP), point 3 is kind of "so what?" (a single non-adding post is hardly uncommon), 4 is just wrong (I see that DP has already answered this point - so I will say I agree with him. He (wrongly imo) advoctates lurker lynching on the basis that lurking is scummy. He's wrong on that point, but if he thinks lurking is scummy, which a lot of people seem to, then it isn't a policy lynch)

And no, it is absolutely not time for claim. My case against Mute is very sound, and hardly anyone has touched on it. A sizable case was just thrown down against DP, and while I may not fully agree with it, it carries some merit. A claim right now would help scum significantly, and town not at all.

If I was still deciding among my top suspects, this would have changed my mind in and of itself. This is just the mafia equivalent of "hey, look over there".

I would not be adverse to a hammer without even letting ICEninja claim if he is going to try and be squirrelly about it. If I had another vote, I would vote him again right now.

I agree. A lynch without a claim is bad - but not lynching somebody because they don't claim is infinitely worse.

I think lurking is scummy. However town also lurk, there is explanation for townies lurking, either disinterest or real life keeping them busy.

Yes it is warning players not to lurk, if they can't handle the game they should not have signed or should replace out and send flowers to the mod as an apology for signing and then flaking. Assuming players signed to play the game and be involved in finding scum, lurking then becomes a scum tell.

I see no point wagoning lurkers during the early stages of a day, it's much more beneficial to go after the information/reaction wagons such as Javerts/Ice's/Mute's/Mine where you will get accusation/defense/etc and just get more information on the table. Voting someone for not being caught up with the game isn't valuable until it actually gets to the point where we are about to lynch someone to end the day.

Scratch what I said above - you're pushing a policy lynch (though, not in the simplistic way ICE initially claimed).

The bolded part in particular sent the "policy lynch alarm bells" ringing for me. See, you aren't asking "Is this player more likely to be scum than town?" What you are saying is "To discourage people from lurking, I am going to assume that lurking is motivated by scummy reasons". Thus, you're basically pushing a policy lynch but disguising it as a proper lynch.

1. The vote may be dropped, the case certainly isn't. You voted for him for changing reasons. The vote was a bandwagon-vote, with no clear reason. No good.
2. Well, you were. That is even worse than still are. You changed your mind about it as soon as you are called scummy for mentioning a policy lynch. That seems to me you want to lose the attention.
3. Well, no need to quote ICE, since you can find yourself what is bad about this.

The interesting thing about this is that, as you point out, on each one Mute's response is basically to say that something WAS his position, but he's now changed. See:

1. You call me out for my vote on Javert, which I should remind you has been dropped by now.
2. You say that I am "subtly trying to get someone lynched" by bringing up policy lynching inappropriately, which is not the case anymore.
3. I voted for him because I felt he was scummy in his posting in the beginning of the game.

He's not admitting he was wrong; nor is he actually defending himself in any real way.

[DavidParker]

I do not advocate a "lynch all lurker" policy. I will not policy lynch for the sake of policy lynching someone. There are times when given the context of how a day went I strongly feel the optimal lynch at the end of the day is on a player who has lurked for most of the day.

@Edgerobin: as far as I remember I already responded to his case on me, so by all means go ahead and say what you want about it. At least I think I responded unless I have a saved post somewhere. I"m tired having just got off a 16hr flight. In dubai airport now.

I just remember Rob's case being a huge stretch. Especially the part where he tried to claim I was scum buddies with magnus. And Javert more or less reiterated and rehashed a lot of my response to the rest of his case which was based around how I derailed Javert's "reaction fishing plan". Apparently it's scummy because I didn't go along with it and let it unfold. I'd rather post my honest perceptions of the game and my current opinions than go along with a bunch of silliness.

[ICEninja]

If I was still deciding among my top suspects, this would have changed my mind in and of itself. This is just the mafia equivalent of "hey, look over there".

No, I was requested to claim prematurely. Several people seem fairly dead set on my lynch, but no one else has said that I should claim. The people who are already dead set on my lynch are going to lynch me regardless of what I claim, so I have no interest in claiming for them (you) anyway.

I agree. A lynch without a claim is bad - but not lynching somebody because they don't claim is infinitely worse.

I'm not refusing to claim in hoping that town wont lynch me. I'm refusing to claim now because it isn't time for a lynch yet.

Prox, you sure seem to be flailing. So now you think you felt like I was "too town" and faking it, but then you put your vote back on me because you're assuming other people have good reasons?

This wagon on me is getting fishier by the moment. The weirdest thing is that the most suspicion player (in my eyes) is the only one that seems to think I'm town.

[DavidParker]

How can a player who has no votes or pressure on him flail??

The last thing you comment on isn't all that weird or uncommon. Scum would rather avoid a wagon if they can. So maybe you've made yourself too easy/scummy a target and scum are just watching the wagon kick off. Or they could be taking advantage of your poor response. There is motive for both.

(OR YOU COULD BE SCUM CAUGHT!)

[Jerbs]

In this post, stuff I say will be in

orange

You overemphasize how good discussion is for Town, and it looks completely contrived

A quick scan through my games shows that I'm no fan of the RVS. I didn't overemphasize anything, I just personally want discussion to get serious quickly. You're interpreting this as something scummy when it is not.

I've looked through a few of you games, and while it does seem that you really dislike RVS, you don't seem to do things such as complementing the town on getting out of RVS.

You basically say you were "pretending" to look scummy

You made this up. I never did this. I said, for the 6th or so time that I exaggerated the best case I could make. I didn't do anything scummy.

Exaggerating a case on someone, then pulling back is scummy. U said that you had a solid tell on someone, then said you were lying.

You claim to be "disgusted" with the mention of policy lynching

I was. It was an awful suggestion, and as I've said enough times, policy lynching you based on what you had done would have hurt town and helped scum. How is it scummy for me to be disgusted with the suggestion?

Then you immediately shift focus to four players for not posting enough by Page 2 of the game.

Oh so it's scummy to call lurkers to post in the game? Shall we read your first post? Of course I'm going to call attention to people who aren't me. People who aren't me weren't posting. We, as you pointed out, have short deadlines this game so we need people posting. Why are you calling something that you've done scummy?

It's not scummy to call lurkers to post. It is scummy to call out other people when you are under attack in an attempt to swith focus. Javert's post was him saying that lurking is bad and pointing out the rules. Your post 47 was calling out specific players around 14 hours after the game started in what seems like an attempt to shift focus

Sure you can go ahead and think that my tone is fake and that I'm lying, but you don't know me. You're calling me scum for just being me. That whole vote and post 47 is pretty much exactly what I would have said even if I was scum, which is why this is so frustrating.

"Ya, I'm always like this, so I'm not scum"

I agree. A lynch without a claim is bad - but not lynching somebody because they don't claim is infinitely worse.

I'm not refusing to claim in hoping that town wont lynch me. I'm refusing to claim now because it isn't time for a lynch yet.

It's a lot easier to paraphrase a role pm then to make one up.

Preview Edit: Again, refusing to claim

[Mute]

Prox, you sure seem to be flailing. So now you think you felt like I was "too town" and faking it, but then you put your vote back on me because you're assuming other people have good reasons?

This wagon on me is getting fishier by the moment. The weirdest thing is that the most suspicion player (in my eyes) is the only one that seems to think I'm town.

See, I thought (first paragraph) was odd too. I mean Prox, were you aware that you had already voted for ICE when you unvoted him? Iuno... Just want to point that out (darn you ICE for ninja'ing me).
Though, I fail to see how he is flailing. He's under no suspicion/pressure right now... what reason would he have to be flailing?

Correct me if my math is wrong, please, but right now ICE you're at L-2. I don't feel strongly enough to put you into L-1. We still have 10 days to decide on who to lynch.

Also how is the wagon against you getting fishier? I assume you meant me when you say "most suspicious player (in my eyes)," but going by vote counts only you and CS find me scummy enough to vote for. This is odd, I feel.
My reads of you are too flippant. On one hand, you're town, for wanting to get others involved in serious discussion, and on the other that same evidence can be used to say you're scum looking for the best people to NK. On one hand, you're town for attacking a player you feel is scum, yet on the other only one other person shares your suspicion of me so perhaps you're trying to divert attention. I just don't know. I don't feel strongly enoug--

-Preview Edit-
Oh, okay, I like these points brought up by Javert: (I'll just bold them)

In this post, stuff I say will be in

orange

You overemphasize how good discussion is for Town, and it looks completely contrived

A quick scan through my games shows that I'm no fan of the RVS. I didn't overemphasize anything, I just personally want discussion to get serious quickly. You're interpreting this as something scummy when it is not.

I've looked through a few of you games, and while it does seem that you really dislike RVS, you don't seem to do things such as complementing the town on getting out of RVS.

You basically say you were "pretending" to look scummy

You made this up. I never did this. I said, for the 6th or so time that I exaggerated the best case I could make. I didn't do anything scummy.

Exaggerating a case on someone, then pulling back is scummy. U said that you had a solid tell on someone, then said you were lying.

You claim to be "disgusted" with the mention of policy lynching

I was. It was an awful suggestion, and as I've said enough times, policy lynching you based on what you had done would have hurt town and helped scum. How is it scummy for me to be disgusted with the suggestion?

Then you immediately shift focus to four players for not posting enough by Page 2 of the game.

Oh so it's scummy to call lurkers to post in the game? Shall we read your first post? Of course I'm going to call attention to people who aren't me. People who aren't me weren't posting. We, as you pointed out, have short deadlines this game so we need people posting.

Why are you calling something that you've done scummy?

It's not scummy to call lurkers to post. It is scummy to call out other people when you are under attack in an attempt to swith focus. Javert's post was him saying that lurking is bad and pointing out the rules. Your post 47 was calling out specific players around 14 hours after the game started in what seems like an attempt to shift focus

Sure you can go ahead and think that my tone is fake and that I'm lying, but you don't know me. You're calling me scum for just being me. That whole vote and post 47 is pretty much exactly what I would have said even if I was scum, which is why this is so frustrating.

"Ya, I'm always like this, so I'm not scum"

I agree. A lynch without a claim is bad - but not lynching somebody because they don't claim is infinitely worse.

I'm not refusing to claim in hoping that town wont lynch me. I'm refusing to claim now because it isn't time for a lynch yet.

It's a lot easier to paraphrase a role pm then to make one up.

Preview Edit: Again, refusing to claim

Why do I say he's got a good post? It seems like you're starting to crack under the pressure. The way I read this it seems like you're backed into a corner and grasping at whatever you can to not get the noose.
You accuse prox of flailing, and it's all I see here.

Vote: ICEninja; whom is now at L-1

"Oh so you were swayed by just one post?"
Nope. Javert and Jerbs I have a strong town-vibe feel coming from them. This along with all the other cases against you is why I voted now.

Plus it's hard to call someone a lurker within 48 real-world hours and it not just be a "what in the is going on in his head?" Yes, the deadline is short. Not that short though; as of now there's 10 days yet til deadline. Seems strange to be in such a hurry.




(btw, iuno = i dont know. wanted to clarify in case it caused confusion for what it meant.)

[Humble Poirot]

Catching up, currently on page 5. I'll try to summarize my notes as much as possible and divide areas into players so as to not burden you with too much information.

See you later.

[ICEninja]

By flailing I didn't mean like scum caught in a corner flailing, I mean struggling to find a place with his vote. Way for everyone to take my words out of context.

And I KNEW Mute would switch his vote over to me once the wagon was getting close. I simply knew it.

Guys, after you lynch me today, please lynch Mute tomorrow. Seriously.

[DavidParker]

I wasn't taking it out of context, more so just hoping you'd say what you meant which you did. I just don't ask direct questions

[ICEninja]

I'm going to be busy until late-ish tonight, so don't lynch me before that please.

[Mute]

By flailing I didn't mean like scum caught in a corner flailing, I mean struggling to find a place with his vote. Way for everyone to take my words out of context.

And I KNEW Mute would switch his vote over to me once the wagon was getting close. I simply knew it.

Guys, after you lynch me today, please lynch Mute tomorrow. Seriously.

Uhm, sorry but, after I unvoted Javert, my next vote was the one I just placed on you.
So, who was I switching my vote from?

[Humble Poirot]

I'm going to be busy until late-ish tonight, so don't lynch me before that please.

Before you go, just claim

. I was going to re-vote you in my post to get that claim. But I can refrain from voting (for now) to ensure you won't get lynched until you come back (out of respect).

But I do want a claim now.

If you did, as you claim, fear a lynch, you would claim now, just in case.


By the way, I'm almost done, just missing a couple of posts and tidying up my messy notes.