Open 272 - Near-Vanilla (Over!)

[DavidParker]

So my ability to replace into games has been questionable at best in the past, the town games I've replaced in I've always thought I knew exactly who scum were and been wrong and done a lot of PBPA which I now believe to not be all that useful in most situations, so I might try something different here and look at the game "event by event" so it's easier to look at scummy things in context.

I've caught up and read anything, if there's specific questions you'd like to ask me go for it, here we go.

RVS: yawn yawn yawn. broken wins some bad-scum-hunter-points for his terrible but semi-serious vote on nacho during RVS although it does seem to be looking for reactions and his posts that follow I like. Farside gets some scummy points for somehow concluding that nacho was scum after 3 posts all of which were 1 or 2 liners by nacho.. Shotty wins some retard points for his posts. AntB proves he fails at reading any form of sarcasm in broken's accusations, then he votes broken for a misunderstanding in linguistics (i felt it was quite clear what broken was saying.... ) I also learn that vanilla extract was a plague spreader. Who knew?

At this point as we are leaving RVS territory I am left wondering where the heck Jesse has gone and why is Farside so set on nacho being scum for some silly non-game related reasons that aren't even a scum-tell in my eyes. AntB is much scummier and broken is probably town.

The-after-RVS-stage:

Shotty and Andrew combine to create some of the most worthless and painful to read 1 line posts with terrible grammar and content. Nacho's fake L-1 vote was quite funny and townish I felt. AntB's reaction wasn't so townish. Still, I am wondering where Jesse is... Somewhere among the mess shotty makes his first actual post - a vote on nacho for his "rolefishing". Oh man did you come up with this scum tell all by yourself shotty? Your input is just too valuable I don't know what we would do without it.

The-SRS-business-Stage:
This starts with nacho actually defending himself. He points out the obvious, confirm scum tell was useless and not something even provable. the rolefishing was well not intended to be rolefishing, nor is rolefishing even scummy in my eyes, its something everyone does at times without meaning to and regardless of alignment. Then my favorite post of the game so far - Smashbro's (144 - http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p2731263). Probably just because he votes shotty. At this point, I feel shotty is coasting. I've been in numerous games with shotty and while he often just posts a lot of 1 liners, he will state his opinions on who he feels is scum, he is definitely lurking more than he normally does, and while his input is somewhat similar, he is far more 'secretive'. I like smashbro's pressure on him and the rest of this post as well. Funnily enough, shotty finally posts right after this vote. Whether that was in response to seeing he can't lurk as much anymore or just the timing of him being active it's hard to say.. But the fact his post is more dribble about an Andrew policy lynch, and just sheeping the 2 wagons makes me feel shotty is bad news.

Oh LOOK, a Wild Jesse appears. 148 Oh look, he just attacked a post I like. Why, scumbag, why???

@Looker: What's with the color coding of that first post?? O_O

Yadee yah. Dunno what stage I'm in anymore.. Slowly turning into PBPA (FML).. Farside brings up some shotty meta, kinda confirms that I think shotty is scum here.

The-Lord_Hur-Stage:
Alright forcing myself to avoid pure PBPA, and labeling this stage the lord_hur stage, because he/she does come in and make some progress here. A lot of actual scum hunting looking into player intent and reasoning behind cases/wagons. etc etc.

The-I-Don't-Have-tOo-much-to-comment-on-the-last-page--butfeelfreetoaskmeanyquestionsonplayersandijustwanttogettoaconclusion-STAGE:
Hoorah.

So. I feel a lot of the people on nacho's wagon early and pushing for his lynch were doing it all for the wrong reasons. The recent push for his wagon has seem more merit as people weren't happy with his responses to the pressure from earlier. Although I still don't feel strongly in the case there, I'm of the opinion people find nacho scummy because of the way he is complying with your requests/questions just not coming in the expected manner, nacho has shown he is willing to reply to what he can in a relatively concise way.

Shotty is definitely play somewhat outside of his normal meta. While I hate to go off meta, I feel he is someone who meta is slightly useful to use for. I mean for one thing it can explain his "bad" play at times, but there is definitely a town-shotty I have seen in games with him which is usually quite opinionated and pressures people. All he has done is push for an andrew policy lynch (who knows why, i really doubt he believes it could ever occur) and state that nacho or antb is scum but nothing more as to why etc. I don't like this play and would put shotty in my #1 slot for scum probably. (if he does flip scum, i'll definitely be looking at Looker for his indirect defense of shotty by attacking smashbro)

AntB seems to have his ups and downs from post to post, he has his scummy moments and his town moments, but I think put into the context of things, with the timing of his nacho vote, and his over-reactiveness at times I am leaning scum on him.

Jesse, where are you? You signed for this game remember?


These 3 players would be on my likely scum list. Much like nacho's. However, it is day 1 and lynching a lurker like Jesse, sadly, won't get us very far. I'd fully support lynching shotty because while he has lurked somewhat, he has definitely done so scummily and not playing to what I perceive as his town meta.

[inHimshallibe]

Official Day 1 Vote Tally

13 players remain; 7 votes needed for a lynch.

Nachomamma8 (5)

- farside22, brokenscraps, AntB, drmyshottyizsik, lord_hur

AntB (1)

- andrew94

Archer (1)

- Nachomamma8

drmyshottyizsik (1)

- smashbro_of_the_SSS

smashbro_of_the_SSS (1)

- Looker

Yet to vote (4): JesseSheffield, DavidParker, Egg, Archer
=========================================================

Prodding

: JesseSheffield

Deadline

: Monday, January 31, 11:59 PM CT. (GMT-6)

[DavidParker]

*Looks around for a non-nacho wagon on someone who is scummy*

"Oh look! Poorly structured sentences and broken English; my favorite choice!"

Vote: shotty

[farside22]

After reading Nacho's scum suspect list I'm more certain then ever he is scum.

@archer: I don't see how your response to lord in that post anwsers why AntB was scummier then Egg to switch your vote.

I need to go and couldn't read the giant post from the replacement to make a comment on it yet.
Will get to that after work.

[DavidParker]

Would love to know why you think Nacho's scum list makes him certain scum?

[brokenscraps]

Will post about shotty once a couple of games I'm with him in end, his style has changed a bit in the last week or so in all his games so it isn't the strongest foundation to build a case on. Still digesting the rest of your entrance.

[farside22]

Would love to know why you think Nacho's scum list makes him certain scum?

He post a scum list in which 2 of the player he found scummy were just because.

Looker OR MidnightHike-
Because I needed a fourth and these two people haven't done anything.

I found scum has a hard time finding scum because they are scum and don't' want to rat out their scum partners. As town I know I'm suspicious of more people then not. He completely ignores egg, smash and drmy who haven't done anything either.
Also when players are town in my view they don't focus on one or two people they look at everyone and question them, which I expect from Nacho if he was town.
Also if you look (yes this is meta) at the game I gave an example when he is town his reasoning on who is scum is more fleshed out then one liners.

[farside22]

Just to be clear in case people missed it here is my full reason's why Nacho is scum

1. He is active elsewhere on MS and ignores this game some days
2. He jumps from one vote to another on two separate people with little to no reason, although he claims both or scummy.
3. Every post I read doesn't not look or read as someone scum hunting. He post lots of arguments with players with no fleshed out reason's for his suspects.
4. His scum suspect list is weak. It has no real thought process or fleshed out aspects or comment amount other players then the 2 he has argued with all game.

meta reason:
He's not being a bully (IE: jerk) like he is when I saw him in another game and he was town.

[andrew94]

huh?
he posts wall of long walls which makes it a 'battle of wills'

[JesseSheffield]

Okay I'll give a nice, long comprehensive post in the morning. Apologies for the delay in helpfulness.

[farside22]

huh?
he posts wall of long walls which makes it a 'battle of wills'

Where do you see him actual scum hunting in those walls?

[DavidParker]

I think I'm being biased by other games I've been in with Nacho at the moment, with that said I don't have a strong town read on nacho, and I feel the early pressure on him was done for the wrong reasons, however, his recent play has been indicative that he isn't entirely willing to scum hunt or help town but don't feel as if he should be put at L-1 yet as I feel shotty's play has been far more atrocious and the stalling/fence-sitting of players like Jesse has been pretty bad as well, and even looking at Egg I see stronger cases to be made..

[inHimshallibe]

Prodding Nachomamma8.

[lord_hur]

@farside22: can you link me some recent games of you playing as town?

I found scum has a hard time finding scum because they are scum and don't' want to rat out their scum partners. As town I know I'm suspicious of more people then not.

I really like this. I'll use it in future games.

Oh, and do you think I play as a jerk?


@DavidParker: how do you analyze Nachomamma8's answer on his voting motivations, regarding his possible scumminess? And what case would you do on Egg, in a few words?

[DavidParker]

Pft, I know fully well I play as a jerk sometimes, and I'm okay with it! You shouldn't care.

Nacho's answer to your questions give me an impression that he is trying to dig his way out of a hole, kind of what you attacked him for afterwards in the post you voted for him. It literally seems to me as if he iso'd himself and thought "hmm what can I use to defend myself". In fact, as I reread your post now, that's exactly what you claimed he did- "a reread exploited in retrospect". Seems I don't have too much original to say on Nacho after all :/ Or I just read your mind.

However, I know I as town have done this even on one occasion when I got myself into a really scummy hole. I iso'd myself to try see what I could use to defend myself, even if I changed the meaning of my posts from their intended meanings at the time. However, nacho as a more experienced player I see less likely to do this, even if there is some town motive. The main thing I don't like about the nacho wagon is how long it's gone on for, especially since I haven't seen a solid case until you really came along; Farside seems to be making a bit of a stretch with his case and stuck in confirmation bias to me.

Egg, the age-old "i'll catch up when I can" and he still hasn't , although that just makes me more sad than anything, my main problem was when he was here. His first real post on page 4 when discussion was rolling along and the game was moving forward, he just ignores everything. He opts to ask a question of each player, there doesn't seem to be any rreason behind his questions, or any intent to find scum with his questions. Here, quick analysis that isn't a few words like you asked-

Jesse, why didn't you vote in your first post?

Is the answer to this question really going to be representative of scum or town? It's a playstyle question. Jesse is also new (correct me if I'm wrong), so has a slightly non-conformist play style at this point as well.

Smash, how can your vote be "slightly serious"? Either it's a joke or it isn't. None of this half joke garbage.

More play style or really "posting style" questions. That's just how smash words his posts... This isn't scum hunting.

Farside, what about Nacho is scummy aside from "I know him well"?

Quite a generic question, which Farside had already answered more or less... There was definitely more to it than "I know him well".

Chaotic, you spent a lot of time defending yourself early on, but very little time scumhunting. Why?

Oh. The irony.

Midnight, you confirmed after the game had already started. No thoughts on what happened before your post?

You want his life story as well? So he was busy for the first 12-24 hours of the game... Big whoop...

AntB, if broken pinged your scumdar, why no vote until your next post?

Broken, why are Nacho and Chaotic confirmed scum?

drmy, do you have a functional mind or are you just going to let everyone else play the game for you?

Andrew, who is scum other than AntB?

Archer, why are you giving all of these scum points, yet your vote continues to be on "the only one with a three letter name".

slMag, is Chaotic scummy for his take on the typo issue?

I could easily go on and point out how almost every one of his subsequent questions served almost no purpose. Egg didn't post a single opinion until the end of his post and that was an opinion on how he interpreted the wording issue of broken's post... Oh and he comments how he think ant's response was not scum-like... His vote on smash was worse than an RVS vote too.

Egg's next post he attempts to explain his questions. "I don't want to be the clueless guy in the back", well guess what, we're all clueless of what you've actually done to scum hunt or be pro-town. Some kind of interaction between every player... Your interaction was based on a bunch of nothing. You may have just as well asked each and every player their favorite color, claimed it was to create interactions so you're not clueless when really you aren't scum hunting, you've attacked people for not scum hunting, you've posted very little and it's just been fluff when you have posted.

"Id love to post more but my computer is acting up".. This is a web browser game. It's either working or it's not working. You post again after that saying you'll catch up, but what kind of excuse is that? Blah.

Rereading egg's posts again made me rage even more.

Unvote, Vote: EGG

[lord_hur]

However, I know I as town have done this even on one occasion when I got myself into a really scummy hole. I iso'd myself to try see what I could use to defend myself, even if I changed the meaning of my posts from their intended meanings at the time. However, nacho as a more experienced player I see less likely to do this, even if there is some town motive. The main thing I don't like about the nacho wagon is how long it's gone on for, especially since I haven't seen a solid case until you really came along; Farside seems to be making a bit of a stretch with his case and stuck in confirmation bias to me.

Holy shit, you do read my mind! Does this observation tell you anything about her alignment?

[DavidParker]

Not particularly :/ I'd rather keep my read on farside to myself at this point.

[Nachomamma8]

So you vote on a fuzzy feeling, because you can find reasons later? And then you vote another person without any reason, as you were actually attacking someone else entirely, and that someone is the one you were voting right before?

Yes. I try to find scum first, and I convince people of them being scum later. After all, gut usually isn't unfounded and a vote can produce the reactions that will tell me where the gut is coming from.

[Nachomamma8]

You play on meta, while I disagree with it others swear on it. For those that use it I will provide what they need/

Let's requote this bit of the exchange.

Spoiler: Nacho vs AntB

As to why AntB doesn't believe what he says, refer to #175. The first quote is him saying his scumdar was pinged quite badly, and that brokenscraps's case "failed". And yet, no vote. This shows that his scumdar wasn't pinged that badly, since when people find scum, they put a vote along with their suspicions.

Note the lack of meta here.

I'm not "people". I'm AntB. I play how I play, not how people such as yourself expect me to play. When I believe I've found scum I hunt around looking for potential connections. Using peoples reactions at this point can provide me with reads later on.

Here's where meta comes in.

I checked your newbie game, and you voted when you had suspicions then. You also went through with your suspicions in Hair Trigger Mafia... so is there any meta you have where you refused to vote who you found suspicious?

So I respond with a meta attack.

Oh look, meta-case. If you look at my other games, both completed and on-going I think you'll find it hard to establish a solid meta.

And now you act like I've been attacking you with meta this entire time.

In other words, stop trying to discount meta when YOU'RE THE ONE WHO BROUGHT IT UP IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I stated before which bit was sarcasm. I would have probably dismissed the point either way,

Requote it, then. I'm not seeing it. You also still haven't answered my question.

If I was lynching on policy I would have said so sooner. I have provided the reasons several times.

Answer ALL of my questions.

andrew94 is my secondary suspect currently.

Why?

This contradicts your previous claim that you voted for the reaction.

How?

This seems contradictory:

It's not even close to contradictory unless you believe that we should ignore shitty reasoning.

[Nachomamma8]

1. He is active elsewhere on MS and ignores this game some days

I haven't been away from this game for a significant amount of time. I've posted more than 90% of the players in this game.

2. He jumps from one vote to another on two separate people with little to no reason, although he claims both or scummy.

I did that in the "jerk" game you quoted too.

3. Every post I read doesn't not look or read as someone scum hunting. He post lots of arguments with players with no fleshed out reason's for his suspects.

I have fleshed them out just fine. Do you want me to post a PBPA on them or something??

4. His scum suspect list is weak. It has no real thought process or fleshed out aspects or comment amount other players then the 2 he has argued with all game.

This, coming from you? Who has been tunneling me all game? Do you even have a 4 player scum suspect list with "fleshed out" reasons?

[Nachomamma8]

He post a scum list in which 2 of the player he found scummy were just because.

Forgot to address this.

JesseSheffield

LURKER

MidnightHike

LURKER

Looker

LURKER

drmyshottyizsik

LURKER

andrew94

LURKER

Egg

LURKER

smashbro_of_the_SSS

LURKER

NONE OF THESE PLAYERS HAVE POSTED ENOUGH FOR ME TO GET A STRONG READ ON THEM. OF COURSE THERE'S GOING TO BE OBLIGATORY LURKER SPOTS BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE A SCUMREAD ON ALL THE ACTIVE PLAYERS.

[DavidParker]

Agree with what nacho said. I questioned farside instead of defending nacho, but his scum list seemed perfectly reasonable. I mean it's still day 1, but it's entirely reasonable that 2 or 3 scum are all on his list. That's not even a "big" stretch. A bigger stretch would be putting ant and nacho as scum together.

[Archer]

farside - I thought I had spotted a scum slip. Thats as simple as it gets.

[AntB]

As to why AntB doesn't believe what he says, refer to #175. The first quote is him saying his scumdar was pinged quite badly, and that brokenscraps's case "failed". And yet, no vote. This shows that his scumdar wasn't pinged that badly, since when people find scum, they put a vote along with their suspicions.

Note the lack of meta here.

You infer a general meta which applies to all players, expecting me to fit in with it and begin pushing a case based on non-conformity to said meta meta.

---

You also still haven't answered my question.

I would have probably dismissed the point either way,

---

So now covering up a slip isn't serious... sure whatever.

My vote was serious, in "serious times" as I felt (and still do feel) he was(is) trying to cover for a slip

Once again for further clarification, "sure whatever" is a sarcastic dismissal of the point. I have stated this once already.

---

Answer ALL of my questions.

I am doing...

---

My suspicions on andrew94 are raised from his vote on me and the painstaking process of getting a reason out of him for it.

---

You state you can't remember why you voted me, yet earlier you state you were reaction fishing.

---

The possible contradiction is in listing me as scum for pressing a brokenscraps case, then listing archer as scum for ignoring it.

[drmyshottyizsik]

mod I'm very very sorry, but I need to be replaced, I am hurting the town